Luchino Visconti

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jonjao · #51 Post by **jonjao** » Sat May 20, 2006 11:08 am

VAGHE STELLE DELL'ORSA/SANDRA (1965) is a stunning film. Sadly, no DVD release exists that I am aware of, except for in an expensive Japanese Visconti boxset (no English subs), which I've not seen. It may be his greatest achievement after The Leopard. For me, Visconti is one of those artists for whom, once you fall in love with their style, you're willing to forgive them anything. So, although I think the Damned and DIV are deeply flawed, I also find them compulsively watchable.

I sent a note to Criterion a while back about SANDRA - I think it would be a great release for them. I saw this in a gorgeous print at MOMA last year. I think it was a Rialto release, so I was hoping Criterion would pick it up, but I've heard no rumblings so far, alas.

Anonymous · #52 Post by **Anonymous** » Sat May 20, 2006 5:33 pm

The Leopard is an exceptionally rendered literary adaptation, but Death in Venice seems to cut deeper to the Visconti's heart. Perhaps it seems repetitive, but the repetition is necessary to pull us deeper and deeper into his painful yearning, a grappling with death, images that stab with emotion like lightning, pure cinema.

Scharphedin2 · #53 Post by **Scharphedin2** » Sat May 20, 2006 7:45 pm

The Leopard is an exceptionally rendered literary adaptation, but Death in Venice seems to cut deeper to the Visconti's heart. Perhaps it seems repetitive, but the repetition is necessary to pull us deeper and deeper into his painful yearning, a grappling with death, images that stab with emotion like lightning, pure cinema.

If you have not seen L'INNOCENTE, then I can recommend it. I just finished watching it, and I was not disappointed. It is not as great as THE LEOPARD and DEATH IN VENICE, I think because it lacks a central character of real sympathy. In all other respects, it is true late-era Visconti.

jonjao -- thank you for the comments on SANDRA. It is great to have this film to look forward to. How wonderful if it was to be included in the Criterion Collection. Then maybe we can hope for Masters of Cinema to do SENSO

Gordon · #54 Post by **Gordon** » Sat May 20, 2006 8:11 pm

The Nouveaux of L'Innocente is non-anamorphic, interlaced, low bitrate and generally weak. Pissed me off something wrotten when I first saw it, as the packaging proclaims, "Digitally remastered from a restored print". Oh, really?

Scharphedin2 · #55 Post by **Scharphedin2** » Sun May 21, 2006 5:31 pm

Gordon McMurphy wrote:The Nouveaux of L'Innocente is non-anamorphic, interlaced, low bitrate and generally weak. Pissed me off something wrotten when I first saw it, as the packaging proclaims, "Digitally remastered from a restored print". Oh, really?

Gordon the R4 (port of R2) l'Innocente is one of the worst DVDs I've ever paid money for. (And I don't think much more of the film, but who can blame Visconti, prostrate on a stretcher for this waxworks of a film.)

Sorry, I am a little naive when it comes to the technical specifications, and I apologize if anyone got their hopes up about this particular film in reading my previous post.

Clearly this is not a stellar disc, but is it really that awful...? True, there are some speckles and scratches, and the colors do pale in comparison with CC's THE LEOPARD. However, I did not feel it ruined the experience of the film. Surely, I have seen films look worse when screened at various retrospectives and at the local Film Museum. In a way, the quality of the disc almost makes for a more realistic experience of the film. Maybe I am not exacting enough... I am thankful that it is possible to see this film at all.

kieslowski_67 · #56 Post by **kieslowski_67** » Sun May 21, 2006 9:56 pm

John Cope wrote:I remember an absurd review of the film by Roger Ebert (which is still available online for those interested) in which he dismissed it ultimately because it had no apparent relevance. He criticized Visconti for his outmoded themes and ideas which was a perfect pretext for Ebert's own indifference to these same themes and ideas.

Ebert would have adored and crashnized the film if Visconti somehow managed to let Helmut Berger fell in love and married a black girl, or even a black boy, and made the racial discrimination a key topic of the movie.

davidhare wrote:Gordon the R4 (port of R2) l'Innocente is one of the worst DVDs I've ever paid money for. (And I don't think much more of the film, but who can blame Visconti, prostrate on a stretcher for this waxworks of a film.)

How does it compare to the English R2 release? I own that DVD and have to say that that transfer totally ruined an otherwise wonderful film.

jonjao wrote:VAGHE STELLE DELL'ORSA/SANDRA (1965) is a stunning film. Sadly, no DVD release exists that I am aware of, except for in an expensive Japanese Visconti boxset (no English subs), which I've not seen. It may be his greatest achievement after The Leopard.

That Japanese DVD features a well above average transfer which is widescreen anamorphic. Claudia looks gorgeous in it. It was worth noting that Visconti got to know Helmut Berger while filming "Sandra" and they went on to have a 10 year relationship until Visconti died in 1976. I fell in love with "Sandra" when I first watched it in 1984. It's a wonderful film (well deserved Golden Lion win) but is no way artistically superior to "Death in Venice".

It's better than "the damned", "the stranger", "conversation piece" and "the innocent" for sure. "Ludwig" has some absolutely stunning sequences that only Visconti can create. However, the film is a bit too long and I can only call it a flawed masterwork.

jonjao wrote:I sent a note to Criterion a while back about SANDRA - I think it would be a great release for them. I saw this in a gorgeous print at MOMA last year. I think it was a Rialto release, so I was hoping Criterion would pick it up, but I've heard no rumblings so far, alas.

I would rather that Crierion go with "the stranger" first. I want to own that movie on DVD badly.

Annie Mall wrote:
Scharphedin wrote:This film was my introduction to Visconti; it made a huge impression on me when first I saw it, and my enthusiasm for it has never waned... it is possibly my favorite Visconti, and in my view the director's most personal film.
Same here! This one was also my first Visconti and I watched it in my late teens on late night TV. At the time we were studying poetry in a class in school and you know how those poets search and search for perfection all their lives and never quite get there? Well, I watched this wondrous film with that frame of mind and it really worked for me then as it still does now.

For me, Death in Venice is about an artist's search or searching for the intangible in Art. BTW, we used to have a thread on this film that no longer seems to be around but I remember it quite clearly.

"Death in Venice", "Fanny and Alexander", and "Andrei Rublev" introduced me to the world of Euro art films when I was in my early teens. "Venice" is Visconti's most personal film. The use of movement #2 of Mahler symphonies #5 and #9 is perfect. Dirk Bogard gave lots of unforgettable performances in his career but he is never better than in "Venice".

kieslowski_67 · #57 Post by **kieslowski_67** » Sun May 21, 2006 10:42 pm

Michael wrote:I apologize if I made it sound like I was dissing Notti. It's a good film but not among my favorite Visconti films. This film has a healthy number of fans of Notti. Some people don't like Ossessione but I think it's one of the greatest, most emotionally raw films ever made. This one remains my favorite Visconti film. Rocco and His Brothers and now Bellissima come very, very close.

I feel that we see more raw emotions in "Terra trema" than in "Ossessione". However it's perfectly understandable that "Ossessione" remains your favorite Visconti. It's a masterpiece.

tavernier · #58 Post by **tavernier** » Sun May 21, 2006 11:37 pm

davidhare wrote:plus the Bruckner 7th - his most inspired choice of music ever, the constant near-climaxes, building and building until that last exploision of emotion. (Far more beautful music than the meretricious Wagner. You really do grow out of some things you once thought were fabulous - Wagner definitely one of them.)

Other views very welcome.

OK, here goes: Wagner's worst music (i.e., everything before Tristan) is preferable to anything by the bombastic, banal Bruckner. I know some people "grow out of" Wagner - which is their loss - but Bruckner has always sounded like a lumbering, grotesque elephant. Whenever I'm subjected to music by Bruckner I feel like I'm being slowly drowned and strangled.

Scharphedin2 · #59 Post by **Scharphedin2** » Mon May 22, 2006 5:39 am

So, DEATH IN VENICE was an important film in your life after all... even one of your favorites for more than a decade

Interesting how life colors our experience of art, and art the experience of life (surely the topic of another thread altogether at some point in the future).

I read your breakdown of Visconti's treatment of homosexuality and gay characters in his films. While the theme is clearly and openly present in several of his films, I think it is important to note (as you also do) that there is just as strong a theme of heterosexual love in his films. Would it be possible to view his films with respect to the sexual more as the product of a sensibility to whom homosexuality was simply a fact of life, and therefore naturally a part of the world he depicted in his films?

Viewing several of the scenes that you cite above through a more heterosexual or ambivalent prism would, I think, render them less charged with homosexual overtones (which is not to say that they are not there -- merely that there is room for the viewer to experience the film, regardless of personal sexual preference).

I can easily follow your reading of the scene of the brawling SA soldiers, but I also think that in its baroque way it is probably not far from how a very drunken party with only male participants would develop. So, unless one is to subscribe to a world view, where all men are latently homosexual, is it really such an unequivocally gay scene, as you imply?

With respect to Giannini burning holes through his rival's naked body in L'INNOCENTE. Within the text of the film itself, there are no overt clues that Giannini's gaze should in any way have any other motive than to see his body stretched out on the ground with a bullet in the heart. Again, given Visconti's and your own sexual orientation, I can see how this scene could carry other connotations.

And then there is DEATH IN VENICE, a film that is often referenced as a homosexual love story. But, is this not a very reductionist reading of Mann and Visconti? To me Tadzio was always beauty, perfection, youth. Aschenbach is a dying artist, literally reaching out for the ideal that he has pursued throughout his life. As I see it, the attraction to Tadzio goes beyond sexuality.

Don Lope de Aguirre · #60 Post by **Don Lope de Aguirre** » Mon May 22, 2006 7:55 am

I also used to have sex to Wagner...

Oh dear...I (unfortunately, all too easily) visualize this as an oh-so-meaningful scene from 'The Damned', a profound comment on the relationship between decadence and power...

tavernier · #61 Post by **tavernier** » Mon May 22, 2006 9:37 am

davidhare wrote:Time does strange things. For three decades I loathed Bruckner, especially in comparison to Mahler, considering Bruckner the epitome of constipation. I also used to have sex to Wagner (how adolescent) But the B Seventh and the horn solos of the B Fourth kept nagging me. Then during the early 90s I went back to some perfs of Mahler's 9th and 5th. Everything had changed. Mahler seemed/seems all bombast,grand gesture, declamatorily obvious (not all) and heart on sleeve. Bruckner revealed himself as a living mystery again. His psychology is immensely complex, and when those resolutions/codas finally come they are astounding (as is all his brass writing.) I just changed my mind (as Dietrich says in Shanghai Express.) That doesn't make me right of course.

A propos of this I used to think Death in Venice was the greatest movie since Morocco for the period approx 1971 to 1984. Then I had a boyfriend who used to play the VHS all the time and cry all through the damn thing. Enough, said I!!

I was going to bring Mahler and Strauss up as examples of composers who improved on what Bruckner and - yes, even - Wagner were doing, but I thought it was obvious. Wagner's music from Tristan to Parsifal is still spellbinding; Bruckner leaves me ice cold. And Mahler may be "heart on sleeve," but that heart is so rich, so full, so psychologically and emotionally complex, that whenever any of his music is played (except, of course, in Visconti's "Death," where it is miscast, so to speak), it's immensely moving to hear.

Scharphedin2 · #62 Post by **Scharphedin2** » Tue May 23, 2006 9:49 am

It's very interesting to look at Dreyer's sublime adaptation of Michael in this light. Bang's novel (admittedly not read by me) is clearly something out of that overheated neursathenic early 20th century Germanic school. Dreyer consciously de-emhasizes the cloying kitsch and sentimentality while still conveying the real passions of the (now passed) relationship of Zoret and Michael. More incredibly he completely invests the movie with the theme of transcendental love, for and through art, without ever denying the real emotions and sexuality of the situation, in a way that Death in V simply can't come near. But then again virtually no-one can come near Dreyer.

I saw the wonderful GERTRUD really quite some time ago. I was very moved by this strange, stylized film (I wonder if the acting seems as consciously rigid to a non-Dane, as it does to Danish viewers?) The parallel with DIV is interesting, and not something I had really thought of, since I saw them at great interval to each other. Time to go back and re-view.

Scharphedin What I was getting at was that... V's gay characters are tragics.

Davidhare, I think your points were wonderfully clear (and strongly substantiated), and made me think about these films once more (thank you)... I think my own argument became (is) muddled. Essentially I think it was this: Whether these are truly conceived as tragic gay men by Visconti? If so, whether they are tragic heroes first, or gay men first? And, to what extent each viewer completes the character in a given film, casting the character in his/her own image?

tryavna · #63 Post by **tryavna** » Tue May 23, 2006 10:16 am

Scharphedin2 wrote:I saw the wonderful GERTRUD really quite some time ago. I was very moved by this strange, stylized film (I wonder if the acting seems as consciously rigid to a non-Dane, as it does to Danish viewers?)

Yes, I think I can safely say, yes, the stylization and consciously rigid acting of GERTRUD definitely comes through, even to non-Danes.

Gordon · #64 Post by **Gordon** » Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:04 pm

No reviews for Ludwig yet and I'm scared to buy it, lest the transfer be shite.

Benson's World have it for Â£12.49, HERE, btw, so it will be a bargain if the transfer is up to scratch.

Don Lope de Aguirre · #65 Post by **Don Lope de Aguirre** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:20 am

As far as Infinity Arthouse goes this is par for the course

Scharphedin2 · #66 Post by **Scharphedin2** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:08 am

Thanks for posting this!

Well, at least it plays at the correct length (I was worried after Infinity Arthouse's debacle last month with CHRIST STOPPED AT EBOLI). The extras sound great too. And, for a chance to at least see the film in its entirety, I think the image is acceptable - a blind buy for me.

Dylan · #67 Post by **Dylan** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:59 am

This looks like an amazing Visconti film, solid transfer, and an excellent DVD set. I can't wait to see it.

Helmut looks like Alain Delon in that last screen capture on the beaver's review.

Scharphedin2 · #68 Post by **Scharphedin2** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:05 am

Myra/Annie, I remember you commenting on a Brazilian release of LUDWIG somewhere in the forum... Based on Beaver's review and caps, would you be able to give a recommendation as to which release to go with?

Lino · #69 Post by **Lino** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:09 am

In fact, I was just thinking of doing just that. I will get back to you later in the day. But for now, my impression of the UK disc is that it looks too muted in its color palette. I have an impression that it should've looked much more lush. I have seen it on the big screen and on VHS and on DVD so maybe I need to get myself sorted!

I checked my brazilian DVD and first of all, Gary doesn't show in his screencaps just how beautiful this film can be. Obviously, he has chosen parts of the film that are always problematic when transfered to DVD (i.e. darkly lit and/or close-ups). On the surface, both transfers - the UK and the brazilian ones - seem to be taken from the same source, although I do feel that the latter looks better in its rendition of skin tones and of color overall.

Of course, this is one that clearly needs the Criterion treatment a la The Leopard. This film has every right to look every bit as lush as that Visconti early epic does. Ludwig needs to be seriously and carefully color graded and go through a professional definition enhancement process. There are so many details that go unnoticed in the transfer such as it is now. Fingers crossed for it to be "awarded" a CC spine number!

I would recommend the brazilian edition only for those who'd want to check out the german dubbing of the film (this is an austrian story after all, so it won't be out of place to hear it in german) as it is for now the only DVD that I'm aware of that contains it.

Apart from that, the UK edition looks fine enough for those who want to see what Ludwig is all about. The extras sound fine too. But still, there is one thing bugging me: Gary says this on his review --

(...) Running time: 3:47:51

I understand that this film was originally cut by 30 minutes and I can't quite be sure which version this represents. The longest version listed at IMdb would be roughly 4 hours and this would coincide with this DVD at 3:47 (being reduced by 4% for PAL speedup).

So, why does my brazilian DVD states 247 minutes NTSC? Can the PAL conversion justify such a big difference in duration?

Scharphedin2 · #70 Post by **Scharphedin2** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:55 am

Thanks Myra, this was excellent. I do understand German, and would be interested in the Brazilian edition (as well as the UK disc). Can you recommend any place to shop for the Brazilian release?

Lino · #71 Post by **Lino** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:05 am

Since I am portuguese, I have no trouble buying stuff from Brazil but I'm sure I have read on this forum about an english-friendly site selling brazilian stuff. If anyone can provide that info here, it would be much appreciated.

Meanwhile, these are the ones I recommend:

#72 Post by **kinjitsu** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:04 pm

That's Suso Cecchi D'Amico on the left, just above the screen caps for the film, but that can't [possibly] be Helmut Berger on the right.

I have seen the film a few times on the big screen, and although that was some time ago, I nevertheless recall much richer colors than those caps show. They aren't the most attractive shots in the film, in fact, they are quite the opposite, and I would have expected at least one or two screen caps just to show how opulent this film actually is.

Gordon · #73 Post by **Gordon** » Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:21 pm

Absolute fucking CUNTS! NON-anamorphic?! Fucking get real! Nob-headed twats! Idiots! Shove it up yer arse! The Germans released an anamorphic transfer, for fucks' sake. Visual majesty, by the Count. Bloody L'Innocente, now this?

And fucking Mae West's bedroom? The bitch had a strap-on dildo up my arse in a dream last night! Whadda ya thinka that, Sigmund?! Tits in my face, spunk everywhere... dirty bitch. Opium bein' puffed'... Coleridge's ghost going on about the end of History and ten-dimensional decadence and shit? Mental.

Anonymous · #74 Post by **Anonymous** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:51 pm

I've just finished watching Ludwig on the new Infinity Arthouse DVD. Or rather I tried to. It's most likely an issue with the disc length and the computer, but about 30 minutes before the end of the film the image started breaking up and the sound went. There's bound to be a specific term for this: the picture shatters into small rectangular artefacts and these seem to remain on screen until some prominent movement occurs to wipe them away...

For a while, it was relatively entertaining as Helmut Berger's face at times morphs into a decaying lupine skull and the ministers that are surrounding him appear to be wearing black leather neutral masks. After another ten minutes of this, the picture froze even thought the disc appeared to play on.

So, I'm understandably a little frustrated! Looking around the internet for clues as to how the film actually ends, I come across this forum which would seem the sort of place where somebody should know. I know Ludwig "apparently" drowned along with Professor Gudden, but wondered how Visconti dealt with these rather mysterious deaths and I'd be grateful for any help.

I might just have a chance to try the DVD on someone else's equipment before it goes back to the rental shop tomorrow. I've never had this problem before, but then I think the longest single DVD I've ever watched on the computer is around the 3 and a half hour mark, as opposed to the 4 hours the timer is suggesting for Ludwig. Mind you, the box has a running of time of "370 mins" written on the back and I thought at first when I picked it up that it might just be some six hour cut! It's not, but I do wish they'd stretched it over two discs (is there not a German language audio that could also have been offered?) and dropped some of the extras.

#75 Post by **kinjitsu** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:52 pm

From your description, sarmoung, it sounds like it's a faulty disc and I can understand your frustration, especially considering the amount of time you spent watching the film only to have the disc decide to fritz during the last act. You should be thankful that it's only a rental.

The complete version is apparently around 265 minutes but I remember it being closer to 240, but there have been so many versions over the years that it's impossible to guess what the correct running time is or was. Anyhow, the original language is Italian, not German, though of course there is a German dub.

The actual circumstances surrounding Ludwig's death were unresolved, and although Visconti and his screenwriters left it a mystery, there is more than a hint that it was a conspiracy.