Auteur List: Rainer Werner Fassbinder

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Red Screamer
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Re: Auteur List: Rainer Werner Fassbinder

#226 Post by Red Screamer » Sat Dec 18, 2021 8:26 pm

I’ve been marathon screening for a film festival since this list started so my Fassbinder viewing has only just begun, but I really enjoyed reading along in this thread in the meantime. Some preliminary thoughts: I’ve only scratched the surface of the filmography but so far the first two Fassbinders I saw are still the ones that have had the biggest impact, Fear of Fear and Berlin Alexanderplatz. Both of them deeply disturbed me as a teenager, the former for its numb sense of helplessness, the latter for its bluntness and accumulation of psychological detail. I thought I was going to be alone in boosting Fear of Fear so I was glad to read the smart appreciations of it upthread. For this list, I started with Fassbinder's later work and while I’ve liked most of the films to varying degrees none of them have really stirred more than admiration in me.

In the melodramas, I’m most impressed with his skill and ingenuity with structure. I thought The Marriage of Maria Braun was settling into its main narrative arc four or five different times before realizing that it doesn't have one and was just going to keep plowing ahead, using ellipses and compressions to give its small-scale drama the scope of an epic as well as to force an analytical distance from the action, since you have to continually reorient yourself in the narrative. This structure perfectly expresses Maria’s ruthless social climbing and its mirror image, Germany’s rush toward prosperity and away from history.

On the other hand, Fassbinder's twisty plotting can have an “and then” thinness to it. Fear Eats the Soul takes a pretty familiar forbidden romance set-up and strips every element down to the frankest, most potent version of itself. Then at the halfway point it becomes a different kind of movie for a while, introducing the cruel joke that, for many of the characters, their extreme racism is outweighed by their extreme selfishness. Emmi is relieved but for Ali it’s easier to be rejected than accepted by a world that disgusts him. So the movie shifts into marital drama as the problems move from outside the relationship to inside it. That’s a good idea on paper but the film never lays the groundwork for it so Emmi’s selfishness and Ali’s desperation in the second half kind of come out of nowhere, even though they make sense. As a character Ali winds up less fully realized than Emmi, without as strong a sense of his thought process or what he wants out of the relationship other than kindness. This weakness especially effects the final third of the film because the change in plotting hinges on character-based drama rather than the social melodrama of the rest of the film.

Highlights of the other things I’ve seen include the the stained-glass color lighting of Lola and the disorienting, angular camera movements of Chinese Roulette, though the latter film didn’t work for me overall. I look forward to circling back to the early work, starting tonight with Katzelmacher. I plan on making Matt's prophecy come true:
Matt wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 6:38 pm
What better way to spend the holiday season than with miserable people determined to make everyone around them just as miserable? Get the whole family together over some drinks to watch The Merchant of Four Seasons! Watch Martha with a date! Get the gal pals together to cheer on girlbosses Maria Braun and Petra von Kant! Celebrate the high life with Fox and Veronika Voss!

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Re: Auteur List: Rainer Werner Fassbinder

#227 Post by zedz » Sun Dec 19, 2021 5:27 pm

Matt wrote:
Sat Dec 18, 2021 3:24 pm
This thread has been awfully quiet.
I ran out of films! Blame Fassbinder for being such a slack-arse and not making enough films.

Which brings me to (I think) the last one. I'm not revisiting Berlin Alexanderplatz, because I rewatched it last year and it's still fresh in my mind as my most recent pre-List Fassbinder.

Image

In a Year with 13 Moons (1978) - Early on, I decided I'd try and leave this film for last because I'd only seen it once, decades ago (I'd never actually watched my Fantoma DVD) and it had packed a hell of an emotional wallop, the kind I'd like to go out on. And if it didn't hold up, I didn't want the disappointment hanging around like a stale fart as I trudged through the remaining films.

Well, it held up. It's a strange, brutal, painful film, with Volker Spengler (and Ingrid Caven) giving probably their best performances. Formally, it's really remarkably staged as a long series of characters telling stories, and Fassbinder uses that structure to do some serious experimental R&D with narration (and sound in general). The film has much of the sonic experimentation of The Third Generation, but in this film it's much more focused and in alignment with the content.

Some f'rinstances:
- the crucial backstory Elvira provides at the slaughterhouse, creating a striking disconnect / reconnect between the narration and the documentary visuals, while (not coincidentally?) sadistically preventing non-German audiences from looking away from the carnage.
- the scene in which Sister Gudrun (Lilo Pempeit, about to fulfil her ultimate casting destiny as a nasty nun, until she turns out not to be nasty at all) tells us (and Zora, and Elvira) Erwin's backstory, but the narration continues at a steady volume as she paces around in and out of the characters' earshot and our view. Her narration shifts from diegetic sound to voiceover nd back during continuous movement.
- the scene where Zora is channel-surfing while Elvira sleeps, then leaves the room and puts on a record, while the television sound continues in the background. But the sound from the television is still chopping and changing between the channels, even though there's nobody at the remote.
- the astounding climax where Elvira's own taped voice tells her story after her death, as her body is discovered and the present-day soundtrack and the music score crowd in to create a cacophony of farce and horror.

Throughout the film, Elvira is narrated at, by people involved in their own stories and their own pain (e.g. the man who watches Anton Saitz every day) and oblivious to hers. She listens politely and supportively - her emotional openness is her fatal flaw - but nobody is there to listen to her when she really needs it.

I love the casual reveal towards the end of the film that the super-villain who destroyed Elvira's life was actually just a regular thoughtless guy who said the wrong thing at the wrong time. These are the details that make this tale a grand tragedy and not just a wallow in misery. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)

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Re: Auteur List: Rainer Werner Fassbinder

#228 Post by zedz » Sun Dec 19, 2021 6:11 pm

I'm now in the position of being able to burn a CD-R of Fassbinder's Greatest Hits. I've tried to limit it to one track per film and artist. By all rights, this should include "Me & Bobby McGee," because he used it so damn much, but I didn't like it much before ! started watching all these films and now i don't care if I never hear it again.

Too Much Tenderness: Songs from the Films of Rainer Werner Fassbinder

KYRIE ELEISON - PEER RABEN (THE NIKLASHAUSEN JOURNEY and others)
I CAN’T CONTROL MYSELF - THE TROGGS (A LITTLE CHAOS)
WE LOVE YOU – THE ROLLING STONES (FEAR OF FEAR)
MOONLIGHT SERENADE – GLENN MILLER AND HIS ORCHESTRA (THE MARRIAGE OF MARIA BRAUN)
RADIOAKTIVITY – KRAFTWERK (CHINESE ROULETTE and others)
TOO MUCH TENDERNESS – GUNTHER KAUFMANN (THE AMERICAN SOLDIER)
BIRD ON A WIRE – LEONARD COHEN (LIKE A BIRD ON A WIRE and others)
OH LONESOME ME – NEIL YOUNG (EIGHT HOURS DON’T MAKE A DAY)
MORNING SONG – PEARLS BEFORE SWINE (RIO DAS MORTES)
STAND BY ME – BEN E. KING (WHY DOES HERR R. RUN AMOK?)
THE BATTLE OF NEW ORLEANS – JOHNNY HORTON (VERONIKA VOSS)
AL ASFOURIAH – SABAH (FEAR EATS THE SOUL)
LET’S GO GET STONED – RAY CHARLES (BEWARE OF A HOLY WHORE)
HAVANAISE IN E MAJOR OP. 83 (EXCERPT) – SAINT-SAENS (FONTANE EFFI BRIEST)
IN MY ROOM – THE WALKER BROTHERS (THE BITTER TEARS OF PETRA VON KANT)
I KILL THEM – GUNTHER KAUFMANN (WHITY)
GUILT – MARIANNE FAITHFULL (THEATER IN TRANCE)
SONG FOR EUROPE – ROXY MUSIC (IN A YEAR WITH 13 MOONS)
CANDY SAYS – THE VELVET UNDERGROUND (BERLIN ALEXANDERPLATZ and others)
SMOKE GETS IN YOUR EYES – THE PLATTERS (THE BITTER TEARS OF PETRA VON KANT and others)
ALBATROSS – FLEETWOOD MAC (WORLD ON A WIRE)

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Re: Auteur List: Rainer Werner Fassbinder

#229 Post by zedz » Sun Dec 19, 2021 6:45 pm

I was also keeping an eye on the stock company as I was watching the films, and here are Fassbinder's top ten actors

Lilo Pempeit - 25 films, from the beginning (A Little Chaos) to the end (Veronika Voss). No leads.*
Kurt Raab - 22 films, until he fell out of favour after Bolweiser. Three lead roles (Why Does Herr R. Run Amok?, Satan's Brew, Bolweiser)
Irm Hermann - 20 films, plus another one where she appears only on the soundtrack (Beware of a Holy Whore). Mostly supporting, but she's basically a lead in Merchant of Four Seasons, and has the Deutscher Filmpreis to prove it.
Hanna Schygulla - 20 films. Three leads (Fontane Effi Briest, The Marriage of Maria Braun, Lili Marleen), but lots of films where she's a big part of a central ensemble.
Rainer Werner Fassbinder - 19 films, plus another three where he appears on the soundtrack (as narrator of Fontane Effi Briest, Berlin Alexanderplatz and Theatre in Trance). So he might leapfrog Hanna depending how you count those appearances. One of his on-screen appearances is in a television interview that Zora channel-surfs through in In a Year of 13 Moons. Three leads (A Little Chaos, Fox and His Friends, Germany in Autumn).
Ingrid Caven - 19 films. No leads.
Harry Baer - 17 films. One lead (Wildwechsel).
Margit Carstensen - 15 films. A whopping five leads (The Bitter Tears of Petra von Kant, Bremen Freedom, Nora Helmer, Martha, Fear of Fear).
Karl Scheydt - 15 films. No leads.
Gunther Kaufmann - 14 films, plus one where he appears on the soundtrack (The American Soldier, singing the theme song). One lead (Whity).

* I'm counting as lead roles only films where the character (or a couple of which they're a part) is the central focus. There are lots of ensemble films with multiple prominent actors but not a clear 'lead'.

The other actors who appeared in ten of more Fassbinder films are: Ulli Lommel (13), Hark Bohm and Katrin Schaake (12 apiece), Rudolf Waldemar Brem (11), and Birgitte Mira and Volker Spengler (10 apiece: three of Mira's appearances were leads).

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Re: Auteur List: Rainer Werner Fassbinder

#230 Post by Rayon Vert » Sun Dec 19, 2021 6:53 pm

zedz wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 6:11 pm
Too Much Tenderness: Songs from the Films of Rainer Werner Fassbinder

KYRIE ELEISON - PEER RABEN (THE NIKLASHAUSEN JOURNEY and others)
I CAN’T CONTROL MYSELF - THE TROGGS (A LITTLE CHAOS)
WE LOVE YOU – THE ROLLING STONES (FEAR OF FEAR)
MOONLIGHT SERENADE – GLENN MILLER AND HIS ORCHESTRA (THE MARRIAGE OF MARIA BRAUN)
RADIOAKTIVITY – KRAFTWERK (CHINESE ROULETTE and others)
TOO MUCH TENDERNESS – GUNTHER KAUFMANN (THE AMERICAN SOLDIER)
BIRD ON A WIRE – LEONARD COHEN (LIKE A BIRD ON A WIRE and others)
OH LONESOME ME – NEIL YOUNG (EIGHT HOURS DON’T MAKE A DAY)
MORNING SONG – PEARLS BEFORE SWINE (RIO DAS MORTES)
STAND BY ME – BEN E. KING (WHY DOES HERR R. RUN AMOK?)
THE BATTLE OF NEW ORLEANS – JOHNNY HORTON (VERONIKA VOSS)
AL ASFOURIAH – SABAH (FEAR EATS THE SOUL)
LET’S GO GET STONED – RAY CHARLES (BEWARE OF A HOLY WHORE)
HAVANAISE IN E MAJOR OP. 83 (EXCERPT) – SAINT-SAENS (FONTANE EFFI BRIEST)
IN MY ROOM – THE WALKER BROTHERS (THE BITTER TEARS OF PETRA VON KANT)
I KILL THEM – GUNTHER KAUFMANN (WHITY)
GUILT – MARIANNE FAITHFULL (THEATER IN TRANCE)
SONG FOR EUROPE – ROXY MUSIC (IN A YEAR WITH 13 MOONS)
CANDY SAYS – THE VELVET UNDERGROUND (BERLIN ALEXANDERPLATZ and others)
SMOKE GETS IN YOUR EYES – THE PLATTERS (THE BITTER TEARS OF PETRA VON KANT and others)
ALBATROSS – FLEETWOOD MAC (WORLD ON A WIRE)
No Elvis?

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Re: Auteur List: Rainer Werner Fassbinder

#231 Post by zedz » Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:18 pm

I was toying with ‘One Night with You’, but it was from a film already represented. (Can’t remember which.)

EDIT: Actually, that song's so short it will fit on the disc anyway, so I'm slotting it in before 'So Much Tenderness' (not "Too Much Tenderness", which I see is actually called 'Our Love')
Last edited by zedz on Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Auteur List: Rainer Werner Fassbinder

#232 Post by Rayon Vert » Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:44 pm

OK I gotcha, you're making sure different films get represented.

One Night is from Fox and His Friends. I mentioned Elvis because he features more than a few times: Jailhouse Rock (Rio), Wear My Ring Around Your Neck (Eight Hours), Trouble (World on a Wire) and, appearing in three films, Santa Lucia (Holy Whore, Berlin, Lola).

Ray Charles makes a couple of appearances also, and Paul Anka's I'm Just a Lonely Boy pops up in at least two films (Jailbait, Eight Hours).

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Re: Auteur List: Rainer Werner Fassbinder

#233 Post by zedz » Sun Dec 19, 2021 8:20 pm

Rayon Vert wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 7:44 pm
OK I gotcha, you're making sure different films get represented.

One Night is from Fox and His Friends. I mentioned Elvis because he features more than a few times: Jailhouse Rock (Rio), Wear My Ring Around Your Neck (Eight Hours), Trouble (World on a Wire) and, appearing in three films, Santa Lucia (Holy Whore, Berlin, Lola).
Actually, since my Fox pick ('Bird on the Wire') I actually credited to another film, Fox was free to be represented by Elvis. So no rules or legs were broken in amending my disc.

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Re: Auteur List: Rainer Werner Fassbinder

#234 Post by Rayon Vert » Sun Dec 19, 2021 11:10 pm

Querelle. Well at least, in a way, Fassbinder closed fittingly like he started, with a very stylized crime film. I didn’t think it was completely awful, but it’s still a clear bottom-feeder for me. I basically agree with a lot of zedz’ points – the Euro-puddingness of it, the vaseline-smeared shots à la Lili Marleen (which kind of ruin the effort that obviously went into the expressionist sets and lighting), the incredibly bad dubbing. I read that Fassbinder didn’t really care about the complicated plot, which I was at pains to follow because the whole thing was so dull it was hard to make the required effort. Maybe knives is right about the film being a personal story for Fassbinder – anyway he offers more compelling reasons for this sort of reading than Volker Schlondörff’s impossibly simple and seemingly-not-quite-right proposition in the introduction to the Artificial Eye blu-ray that this is Fassbinder relating autobiographically to Querelle’s discovery and affirmation of his homosexuality.

Christian Thomsen, meanwhile, who isn’t quite sure how the rate the film, makes an argument that the director is continuing what he did in his previous novel adaptations which is to make a film that never stops letting us know it’s a film, and aiming at “total distance” (the literary text titles, the commentary, the heavy studio artifice), and he posits that the film deliberately prevents us from having a relationship with it, which includes the way the narrative in its unfolding “cancels” every point of contact we make along the way (p. 303). That sounds good in theory but in experience it was never really possible for me to establish a significant engagement of interest in the first place. Now maybe that’s due to Brad Davis’ acting and the other loud, empty “international jet set prestige cinema” (Matt) features of the film. But then you think of the repetitive gratuitousness of the lengthy dumb sodomy and penis-size discussions, for instance, and that points to there being other significant problems with the conception of this movie.

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Re: Auteur List: Rainer Werner Fassbinder

#235 Post by therewillbeblus » Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:33 am

I tried to Shazam one of the music cues in the final chapter of Berlin Alexanderplatz and came up empty- I wish there was a play-by-play online pointing to the order over images during that one stretch where Fassbinder recycles all his cues, since it would be impossible to point to a specific "scene" it came from, when he's throwing them all out there in a continual flow. I was able to pick up on most of them given my exposure to a lot of these songs in my youth, but I guess I'll have to revisit it with zedz' masterlist on hand and see if the one I'm particularly thinking of lines up! (I think it was during/before the rats in the wall, and before the Joplin and the Velvet Underground songs, but I can't be sure)

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Re: Auteur List: Rainer Werner Fassbinder

#236 Post by Rayon Vert » Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:20 am

therewillbeblus wrote:
Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:33 am
I tried to Shazam one of the music cues in the final chapter of Berlin Alexanderplatz and came up empty- I wish there was a play-by-play online pointing to the order over images during that one stretch where Fassbinder recycles all his cues, since it would be impossible to point to a specific "scene" it came from, when he's throwing them all out there in a continual flow. I was able to pick up on most of them given my exposure to a lot of these songs in my youth, but I guess I'll have to revisit it with zedz' masterlist on hand and see if the one I'm particularly thinking of lines up! (I think it was during/before the rats in the wall, and before the Joplin and the Velvet Underground songs, but I can't be sure)
The Thomsen book has the music cues for each film, so it's possibly in this list: (skipping the classic music pieces, traditional German songs and nationalist anthems) Kraftwert "Radio Aktivitat"; Janis Joplin "Me and Bobby McGhee"; Velvet Underground "Candy Says"; Elvis Presley "Santa Lucia"; Donovan "Atlantis"; Leonard Cohen "Chelsea Hotel No. 2"; Glenn Miller "In the Mood"; Dean Martin "Silent Night".

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Re: Auteur List: Rainer Werner Fassbinder

#237 Post by Matt » Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:28 pm

Tabulation update: 6 lists are in (thank you). There is a lot of movement in spots 2-7, and these films all have something in common. 39 out of the 44 eligible films have received at least one vote, so every list added going forward could still make a big difference in the final results.

With that in mind, I will not submit a list of my own unless it makes little impact on the final results. As I'm able to see all the ballots as they come in, I do not want to juice the results even unconsciously. I completed a preliminary list at the start of the project and have not been able to revisit or view anything new to me since then, so that would be the list I submit.

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Re: Auteur List: Rainer Werner Fassbinder

#238 Post by therewillbeblus » Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:35 pm

Why not submit it, if the list was made in advance of receiving new lists, and unchanged since then? If you don't alter placements to game the results, your omniscience shouldn't be an impactful variable. Unless of course you don't feel secure about your list in the first place, the more lists the better

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Re: Auteur List: Rainer Werner Fassbinder

#239 Post by Matt » Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:43 pm

Thanks, I'll see what things look like once all votes are in. Whatever happens, I will be transparent about it.

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Re: Auteur List: Rainer Werner Fassbinder

#240 Post by swo17 » Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:54 pm

I always submit a list with the ones I tabulate. I know the difference in feeling between a placement I would make because I believe in it, and a change I might feel tempted to make because of how other people are voting. So long as you don't do anything that makes you feel like a protagonist in one of these films (and hey, even if you do) I would hope the final list reflects your tastes along with everyone else's. You were the one passionate enough to get this thread rolling and you've earned that right

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Re: Auteur List: Rainer Werner Fassbinder

#241 Post by Rayon Vert » Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:01 pm

Matt wrote:
Mon Dec 20, 2021 2:28 pm
There is a lot of movement in spots 2-7, and these films all have something in common.
The presence of Lilo Pempeit? :lol: (as per zedz's above post)

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Re: Auteur List: Rainer Werner Fassbinder

#242 Post by swo17 » Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:03 pm

The title including a proper name? It's actually true of my 2-7 spots as well

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Re: Auteur List: Rainer Werner Fassbinder

#243 Post by Rayon Vert » Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:05 pm

That must be it, and a female name at that.

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Re: Auteur List: Rainer Werner Fassbinder

#244 Post by swo17 » Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:12 pm

I wouldn't rule out Ali though

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Re: Auteur List: Rainer Werner Fassbinder

#245 Post by zedz » Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:25 pm

My list is 45% television, with six ladies on it. All five of Margit Carstensen's leading roles make the cut.

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Re: Auteur List: Rainer Werner Fassbinder

#246 Post by swo17 » Mon Dec 20, 2021 3:54 pm

I've only got four Margits but eleven TV works, assuming this is all of them:

Das Kaffeehaus
Rio das Mortes
Die Niklashauser Fahrt
Pioniere in Ingolstadt
Bremer Freiheit
Acht Stunden sind kein Tag
Wildwechsel
Welt am Draht
Nora Helmer
Martha
Wie ein Vogel auf dem Draht
Angst vor der Angst
Ich will doch nur, daß ihr mich liebt
Frauen in New York
Bolwieser
Berlin Alexanderplatz

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Re: Auteur List: Rainer Werner Fassbinder

#247 Post by accatone » Wed Dec 22, 2021 5:13 am

Great project with competent readings & discussions, again especially by zedz! For me easily the thread of the year, with actual Cinema content as opposed to all the technical and distributional details. But as i do not add any significant cinematic content myself, i am not in the position to complain.

I still see Fassbinder as THE German (capital G) director of the post war period. My parents generation in a nutshell with all the contradictions of their time. The melodrama is there, but to me the films always had a neorealistic touch as well that made them so uncomfortable to watch (mirroring (…) everything around me). Still working with "art" students (mostly in their 20s), its interesting to see that they have great difficulties to get "into" Fassbinders Mise en Scène. Judging from screenings in Germany (both Cinema and TV) it looks like RWF aged very badly and is almost not shown. There was a Bio Pic (that i have not seen) that received only mild reactions even though it had all the controversial details in it (all the ones from the Kurt Raab book i heard) and was in (Corona-) Cannes. As everthing seems to become more conservative, he might have a comeback though, who knows?

My top 10 (Dec. 2021):
1. Katzelmacher
2. Maria Braun
3. Angst essen Seele auf
4. Angst vor der Angst
5. Berlin Alexanderplatz
6. Die Sehnsuch der Veronika Voss
7. Händler der vier Jahreszeiten
8. Martha
9. Mutter Küsters’ Fahrt zum Himmel
10. In einem Jahr mit 13 Monden

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Re: Auteur List: Rainer Werner Fassbinder

#248 Post by Lemmy Caution » Wed Dec 22, 2021 9:00 am

For me, In a Year with 13 Moons and Veronika Voss are easily my top Fassbinders. VV I can rewatch any time, but I'm often reluctant to revisit 13 Moons since it is such a powerful experience and a fairly harsh film. I've seen 13 Moons twice and should go for another viewing soon. Volker Spengler is really amazing in the lead.

The Fassbinder's I dislike are Beware a Holy Whore and The Bitter Tears of Petra von Kant. Too static and confrontational and unpleasant human relations.

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Re: Auteur List: Rainer Werner Fassbinder

#249 Post by Rayon Vert » Wed Dec 22, 2021 9:48 am

Lemmy Caution wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 9:00 am
and unpleasant human relations.
That's pretty much every Fassbinder film! ;)

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Re: Auteur List: Rainer Werner Fassbinder

#250 Post by Matt » Wed Dec 22, 2021 12:51 pm

Two more lists in and still more turbulence in the top ten. Every list so far has included the current #2, but no one has listed it as their #1. Only 2 more lists to make things legal, and 9 days left for voting.
Lemmy Caution wrote:
Wed Dec 22, 2021 9:00 am
The Fassbinders I dislike are Beware a Holy Whore and The Bitter Tears of Petra von Kant. Too static and confrontational and unpleasant human relations.
Making my top ten was pretty easy: there are maybe 9 RWF films I love, a few I like very much, and a bunch I dislike intensely (though that was certainly the intended effect). Beware a Holy Whore is one of those in the last bunch.

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