Auteur List: Otto Preminger

An ongoing project to survey the best films of individual decades, genres, and filmmakers.
Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
therewillbeblus
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm

Re: Auteur List: Otto Preminger (Pre-Game)

#101 Post by therewillbeblus » Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:55 pm

Fujiwara explains it really well in the book- it's deceptively detached, allowing us to be a jury, but with an urgency and curiosity that clearly shows passion too. I bit of an ironic, conflicting style reflecting his own internal struggle between disengagement and compassion. Also yeah, the book's structure got pretty monotonous at times- especially when I read a lot in one sitting. Sometimes the stories from the set were terrific, other times dry; sometimes the analyses were great, other times not. Sometimes I felt they missed the mark (The Fan in quality, and Daisy Kenyon from a critical perspective), sometimes they were worth reading but a bit of a 101 version (Whirlpool comes to mind, a movie that he clearly likes and is on-point critically, but barely scratches the surface of its thematic implications), and other times really in-depth and relentlessly insightful (he really goes for broke in Bonjour Tristesse, and as someone who's analyzed it to death myself, I found some really profound ideas in there I hadn't considered- i.e. Kerr becoming the film's subjective center -that were impressive even if I didn't agree with all of them). I'm also not as keen on his last two decades, and Fujiwara clearly admires these works a lot.

User avatar
bottlesofsmoke
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:26 pm

Re: Auteur List: Otto Preminger

#102 Post by bottlesofsmoke » Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:48 pm

I remember Fujiwara’s books on both Preminger and Tourneur being best enjoyed in bits and pieces, ie after I had watched a particular movie, and I plan on revisiting certain chapters as I watch and rewatch more this time around. I love both books (as Maltic said, the Tourneur one is even better) but I don’t know if I could read them straight through, (especially not in one sitting!) and it would be almost pointless to read many of the chapters on movies you haven’t seen yet, because the analysis is so in-depth, whereas other bios (like Hirsch’s on Preminger) can easily be read without having seen all the movies yet. Either way, add my recommendation to the pile for the book.

User avatar
therewillbeblus
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm

Re: Auteur List: Otto Preminger

#103 Post by therewillbeblus » Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:24 pm

Yeah I tackled a chunk of the book one day when I had a lot of work cancellations and it felt like a chore after a while, but I stopped at around the 2/3 mark before watching his later works and then read it a chapter at a time as I went through them which was much better. I may have to check out this Tourneur book.

User avatar
Rayon Vert
Green is the Rayest Color
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:52 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Auteur List: Otto Preminger

#104 Post by Rayon Vert » Sat Apr 24, 2021 10:49 pm

Tell Me That You Love Me, Junie Moon. This definitely has a late 60s laid-back vibe in its comdram tone (something a bit like Alice’s Restaurant, or my memory of it anyway) that fits the hippie-ish story of these life-scarred “freaks” gathering together as a community. It’s very quirky and disjointed but I think there’s a sweetness to it, so I wouldn’t in anyway be tempted to call it the director’s worst film. Minnelli offers a worthwhile performance too. That flashback scene to the sordid attack that caused the damage to her face is really delivered like a horror film though. The epileptic Arthur’s hallucinations of past trauma have a zombie-ish ghost quality to them also. Not great but definitely watchable.


Rosebud
. Interesting to see the director this late in the game tackle a hot contemporary political topic like the Black September Organization, with some very precise recent historical context. In terms of action and suspense, though, this definitely isn’t Exodus - or Munich, for that matter -, though I still found it absorbing initially, going from the viewpoint of the kidnapped girls (including a very young Isabelle Huppert and Kim Cattrall), to the terrorists, and to the CIA agent. Unfortunately that complexity of perspective isn’t maintained as we eventually are just ensconced within the perspective and actions of the counter-terrorist forces. At least for the first hour I didn’t quite understand the ridicule this film came under in the original reviews, nor the 1-star ratings you’ll find on IMDB, calling it a complete “catastrophe”. The flaws did become more obvious in the second half, though. The story sustains you initially but when it comes time to the rescue half it becomes significantly less interesting, the pace is lacking and what action scenes there are, especially at the end, are rather flaccid and inept. The physically fragile O’Toole is miscast, and on the whole a lot of the acting, including his and Attenborough’s, is sub-par. (Fun fact: when we first see O’Toole undercover at his Newsweek desk, the issue prominently displayed has Liza Minnelli on the cover.)

User avatar
therewillbeblus
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm

Re: Auteur List: Otto Preminger

#105 Post by therewillbeblus » Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:11 pm

Robert Mitchum originally had the O’Toole role but was fired/quit (depending on who tells the story) due to his incessant drinking and difficult behavior. This is one of my favorite bits from the book:
Chris Fujiwara wrote:Within two days, Preminger had found Mitchum's replacement in Peter O'Toole- another actor with a drinking problem and a reputation for hell-raising ("Hell, that's like replacing Ray Charles with Helen Keller," Mitchum remarked).

User avatar
Rayon Vert
Green is the Rayest Color
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:52 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Auteur List: Otto Preminger

#106 Post by Rayon Vert » Sun Apr 25, 2021 11:08 pm

Fallen Angel. (revisit) This is a good example of Preminger infrequently cutting during scenes, even dialogue ones, with one clear exception I noted of Stanton and June talking across a table on a date. I agree with twbb it’s a destabilizing film, not only narratively with the violent plot changes, but also in terms of the way characters come across. Stanton is an ambiguous character - he’s suspicious from the start as some kind of drifter, who we then see primarily interested in correcting his financial situation. We then see a breach in his calculating nature, when love/desire interrupts those plans, but then we’re repulsed when we discover the means he plans to use to attain his aims - and later on his character is complexified even further. Meanwhile Stella is admirable for steadfastly sticking to her ideas, but there’s something a little hard and sad, even if understandable, about her founding her romantic attachment on the promise of material security. Lots of fallen angels in this picture. Really absorbing direction throughout, even though it’s not as strong a screenplay as Laura. And that ambiguity and destabilization keep the film interesting.

User avatar
swo17
Bloodthirsty Butcher
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
Location: SLC, UT

Re: Auteur List: Otto Preminger

#107 Post by swo17 » Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:01 pm

When is the deadline for this project? The first post doesn't say

User avatar
domino harvey
Dot Com Dom
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm

Re: Auteur List: Otto Preminger

#108 Post by domino harvey » Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:12 pm

I’m trying to figure it out with my schedule. Will prob be second week of June

User avatar
therewillbeblus
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm

Re: Auteur List: Otto Preminger

#109 Post by therewillbeblus » Tue Apr 27, 2021 1:42 pm

Will this be a project with a max list of 10 or 15 films?

User avatar
domino harvey
Dot Com Dom
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm

Re: Auteur List: Otto Preminger

#110 Post by domino harvey » Tue Apr 27, 2021 4:47 pm

10 films

User avatar
therewillbeblus
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm

Re: Auteur List: Otto Preminger

#111 Post by therewillbeblus » Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:04 pm

That's what I figured, thanks!

User avatar
knives
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm

Re: Auteur List: Otto Preminger

#112 Post by knives » Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:14 pm

Geez, that would be hard to stop at.

User avatar
therewillbeblus
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm

Re: Auteur List: Otto Preminger

#113 Post by therewillbeblus » Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:26 pm

I'm pretty confident in my finalized list but it will be tough to cut his early 60s political films that are currently hovering around that 10th slot. There's nothing I'm comfortably kicking to make room though.

User avatar
knives
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm

Re: Auteur List: Otto Preminger

#114 Post by knives » Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:36 pm

In the Meantime, Darling This in a sense puts to rest the idea of Laura as Preminger’s artistic awakening and also highlights the small ways that statement must be true.

There are a lot of markers of Preminger, working as producer as well, from the useful if artificial like the beginning of his great partnership with Craine, who gives a great performance here, to some more specific elements such as multi-dimensional mis-en-scene as his main communication device. Perhaps the most familiar element though is his sexual and linguistic frankness. This is sort of an anti-screwball as the sex is about sex and it doesn’t need double entendres. Perhaps this is part of the film’s propaganda license, but it seems to get away with a lot more direct speech about sex than most comedies of the time. That the characters are married probably helps that.

In the success of this film though there is one major leap that Preminger hasn’t made yet and that is with tone. Compared to the other comedies this film feels more American for lack of a better word as the emotions run high and the film’s observation is on the characters first rather than their systems as in the Lubitsch films. It’s less mechanistic. Noir and Lubitsch both seem to have switched a light for Preminger to be more wry and observational and less broadly built. It promises that Preminger would have great eventually, but also that he could have been great in a different manner as well.

Also don’t look into the film’s production if you want to look at Eugene Pallette the same way again.

As a proof of that really one just needs to witness Laura which is a flash of lightning I am inadequate to speak on so here are too many words.
SpoilerShow
The film that really started it all. Watching this again for the first time in years immediately a million things stand out. Mostly it is the things seemingly borrowed from others and yet unable to assimilate. This has all the Marlowe ready markers, but the fusion of Rebecca into the mold forced it to to become something much stranger.

The opening scene is a beautiful example of matters. It’s a long and sprawling scene done with as few edits as possible. It reminds me of the master shot split apart in Touch of Evil. The focus on process becomes the mode of characterization as everyone seemingly already knows everyone and we’d be drowning from the in media res presentation mixed from information overload, in a few terse words we get all the facts of the case, character relationships and even the four leads and a herring within a snatch of time.

The scene also sets up this twinning between Andrews’ and Webb’s desire starting with the unclear nature of the opening lines of the narration which in another voice could have been Webb’s. In that sense Price, so baby faced and sweet, is even further a red herring than in just the narrative sense. His attraction is not of concern to the world of the film because it is something that could be easily understood. As would be maximized with Bunny Lake Preminger sans a real world motivator, politics or civil rights, becomes surreal through embodying a genuine psychology. I found myself throughout shaking my head against Webb’s statements regularly, but no more thoroughly than his cute dismissal of psychological examination which the film runs counter to. There’s a well orchestrated messiness present that works as a third broken psyche that also doesn’t know the truth of Laura.

Webb is perfect in the film and gives great weight to how unreliable he is. That’s a known quality though. What shook me this time is how the mask of civility cannot be preserved and how blatant the film is in his madness peppering it over mostly through a Mizoguchi camera style. Look at how Webb in his martyred apology scene he must slip in his anger and violence to the newsboy, but his intelligence must change it into a joke. There’s something tremendously disturbing to the film that is so latent and requires being known as much as the film knows it cannot know itself perhaps out of fear that the film will become ordinary.

User avatar
therewillbeblus
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm

Re: Auteur List: Otto Preminger

#115 Post by therewillbeblus » Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:05 pm

Re: Laura (which finally clicked for me as a perfect movie my last watch, though I've always considered it great)
knives wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 5:36 pm
SpoilerShow
Webb is perfect in the film and gives great weight to how unreliable he is. That’s a known quality though. What shook me this time is how the mask of civility cannot be preserved and how blatant the film is in his madness peppering it over mostly through a Mizoguchi camera style. Look at how Webb in his martyred apology scene he must slip in his anger and violence to the newsboy, but his intelligence must change it into a joke. There’s something tremendously disturbing to the film that is so latent and requires being known as much as the film knows it cannot know itself perhaps out of fear that the film will become ordinary.
This is a really strong point, and I love the contradictions within Laura herself
SpoilerShow
mainly that she claims to be self-actualized and then in the end tells Webb that this is the first time she's really made a choice for herself, reinforcing the idea that she's complacently become an object of men while fooling herself of her agency. Though her relationship with Andrews giving her the courage to see transparently can also be read as only granting her that power to see in the direction of where she isn't if we're being cynical, and thus selling Preminger's assumptions that we're always skewed and hazy in our perceptions.

I also love how Laura's reveal is framed in a medium/wide shot, and we never get a closeup even as Andrews wakes up to be blindsided by the twist. Preminger's denial to give us subjectivity there keeps us in step with this untethered relationship with our own perceptions. In that moment we can experience our and Andrews' shock and disbelief, but also Laura's shock and so her response at genuinely asking who he is and threatening to call the police works because her perspective as a confused participant is as valid as ours or Andrews, and we can acknowledge this in Preminger's form before we even catch up on the plot to know that she literally does not know what's happening.

User avatar
knives
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm

Re: Auteur List: Otto Preminger

#116 Post by knives » Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:20 pm

And those contradictions are in Andrews as well. I used to believe that he was in love with Laura, but this watching I think he only believes that, but his real obsession is with the case which is confused and confuses him.

The idea of Laura as a modern woman except not ran in my head as well comparing the film to Lang’s Blue Gardenia which also dealt with how to be a modern woman means having contradictions though I suppose Preminger would have it as applicable to all people except the pleasant doofi like Price. It’s kind of scary, a word I’m overusing even if it seems so right, how Descartes can’t be absolutely true as the self proves unknowable. What are the choices Laura has made. I’m not sure if she isn’t being poetic here even if she is convinced of her veracity.

Preminger’s noirs are definitely confusing affairs.

User avatar
bottlesofsmoke
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:26 pm

Re: Auteur List: Otto Preminger

#117 Post by bottlesofsmoke » Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:26 pm

knives wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 6:20 pm
And those contradictions are in Andrews as well. I used to believe that he was in love with Laura, but this watching I think he only believes that, but his real obsession is with the case which is confused and confuses him.
I always thought that Andrews was in love with the Laura he creates as he is investigating her. Starting with the image of the portrait, listening to accounts of her, reading her private writings, spending time alone in her apartment, with her things, even smelling her perfume and touching her clothes, he creates his perfect Laura and falls in love with that. Likewise, the painter Jacoby - who was in love with her when he paints the portrait - creates his version, but we are told it is lacking her vibrancy and warmth. We are told this by Waldo who also has his version of Laura, his Galatea, his protege that he discovers and builds up, she is “the best part” of himself. Each creates his own version of Laura, but she isn’t any of those things exactly. What she is is a beautiful, competent, professional woman with compassion and understanding (see how she looks out for Price, getting him a job and trying to shield him from suspicion), virtues that make her more interesting and attractive than a typical male fantasy. In this way, Laura is clearly apiece with Whirlpool to me, in which Conte has his perfect version of his wife - beautiful, great to show off at parties, doesn’t cause any problems for him - that is at odds with his real wife, and keeping up that facade nearly is wrecking her physically, mentally, and emotionally and drives her into Ferrer’s influence.

Also, it’s interesting that you relate Laura to The Blue Gardenia, knives, since both are based on stories by Vera Caspary.

User avatar
knives
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm

Re: Auteur List: Otto Preminger

#118 Post by knives » Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:43 pm

I didn’t know the Caspary connection. Is there a good collection for her?

I think I largely agree with your analysis, but what I meant was that this viewing made me move from Andrews having an idealized version of Laura and the truth disrupting him to Webb believing that, but Andrews disruption being motivated by the lie in the case messing with his methodology and the reveal of Laura awakening him to the truth.

My motivation for this reading is noticing that Andrews isn’t really all that invested in the portrait and the letters are beguiling because they approach the truth, but can’t handle it. They’re a dead end but that doesn’t make sense given a reality where Laura is full of lead.

User avatar
domino harvey
Dot Com Dom
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm

Re: Auteur List: Otto Preminger

#119 Post by domino harvey » Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:48 pm

Andrews tries to buy the portrait though, so I don’t think you can really say that

User avatar
knives
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm

Re: Auteur List: Otto Preminger

#120 Post by knives » Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:54 pm

I must have skipped over that detail. Never mind then.

User avatar
therewillbeblus
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:40 pm

Re: Auteur List: Otto Preminger

#121 Post by therewillbeblus » Tue Apr 27, 2021 9:27 pm

bottlesofsmoke wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:26 pm
Also, it’s interesting that you relate Laura to The Blue Gardenia, knives, since both are based on stories by Vera Caspary.
I believe Adrian Martin compares Whirlpool and The Blue Gardenia as working in opposing circles and opposing frameworks- as single vs. married women, who are coping with a suppression of identity from external forces vs. internal ones - in his BFI commentary. I should know since I listened to it twice, but my memory isn't strong enough to recollect anything deeper. It's worth a listen (or two) though!

User avatar
bottlesofsmoke
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:26 pm

Re: Auteur List: Otto Preminger

#122 Post by bottlesofsmoke » Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:22 am

knives wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:43 pm
I didn’t know the Caspary connection. Is there a good collection for her?
Unfortunately not, as far as I know. Laura and Bedelia are easy to find, and you can find some old copies of a couple random novels, but that’s about it. I’m hoping since Library of America put out their Women Crime Writers anthology with Laura they’ll eventually do a full collection of her work, and Dorothy Hughes too.

User avatar
NABOB OF NOWHERE
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:30 pm
Location: Brandywine River

Re: Auteur List: Otto Preminger

#123 Post by NABOB OF NOWHERE » Wed Apr 28, 2021 5:45 am

For those attracted to the minutiae of all things Prem here is his appearance on BBC radio's Desert Island Discs in 1980 where he spars with the host Roy Plumley. A feat of chutzpah in which he chooses 8 discs ,all choices coming from his own films soundtracks surpassed only by Elizabeth Schwarzkopf who chose 8 of her own recordings- https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p009mwkr

User avatar
knives
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm

Re: Auteur List: Otto Preminger

#124 Post by knives » Wed Apr 28, 2021 6:48 am

bottlesofsmoke wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 12:22 am
knives wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:43 pm
I didn’t know the Caspary connection. Is there a good collection for her?
Unfortunately not, as far as I know. Laura and Bedelia are easy to find, and you can find some old copies of a couple random novels, but that’s about it. I’m hoping since Library of America put out their Women Crime Writers anthology with Laura they’ll eventually do a full collection of her work, and Dorothy Hughes too.
Drat, put me in as another in the hoping jar I guess.

User avatar
Rayon Vert
Green is the Rayest Color
Joined: Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:52 pm
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Auteur List: Otto Preminger

#125 Post by Rayon Vert » Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:44 pm

In the Meantime, Darling. This has gotten deep appreciations in three write-ups. I’m afraid it was so slight for me I had difficulty giving it the proper attention it possibly deserved (?). I can’t criticize the direction but the screenplay felt neither funny to me nor dramatically appealing. It’s got the third lowest IMDB ratings of the director’s films so maybe I’m not alone in this kind of reaction.


Such Good Friends. Kind of odd that after all those epic dramas Preminger made two oddball comedies that weren’t well received and and yet decided to make a third one. This was all over the place, in terms of tone and focus of satire. Thankfully Julie’s discovery halfway through creates a vulnerability that gave the film a touch of likeability that wasn’t there before, but it didn’t make it less of a mess. These two films are near the bottom of the barrel for me.

Post Reply