High Definition Transfers

Message

Gordon · #1 Post by **Gordon** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 4:07 pm

With age of Blu-Ray dawning, I have began to wonder if all of Criterion's video-masters are hi-def or just standard def. At some point the started proclaiming "New high-definition transfer..." on the package, but how long before that were the transfering from film to high-def D5 digital tape on a hi-def telecine?

The Seveth Seal
Walkabout
The Naked Kiss
Shock Corridor
The Red Shoes
The Passion of Joan of Arc
The Third Man
Hamlet
Black Narcissus
I Know Where I'm Going!

None of these titles are claimed to be transfered in hi-def. I am sure that there are more. This would create a future problem. It makes me wonder if Criterion are not constantly creating all-new hi-def transfers of their std-def masters, either for down-converted DVD reissues or purely for Blu-Ray editions. An all-new edition of The Red Shoes on Blu-Ray would definitely convert me to the format, hallelujah, take my money, gimme, gimme, gimme! But if all we get is two years of Tom Cruise films, then I'll be staying put.

I didn't expect remasters of Yojimbo and Sanjuro before Blu-Ray - that threw me completely and so the rest of their standard-def / non-anamorphic / non-progressively transfered titles are all now up for grabs in 2006, I reckon. Is Picnic at Hanging Rock highly likely or just a rumour? That would make a quadruple-dip for me if it was!

Even if they are great transfers, they are, unfortunately, antiquated in the greater scheme of things.

So, which transfers in the collection are:

- Standard definition
- NON-progressive

ellipsis7 · #2 Post by **ellipsis7** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:00 pm

Re-mastering will depend on expectation of sales... Clearly the recent Samurai boxset, and Kurosawa titles, especially recently RAN & KAGEMUSHA have sold like hot cakes, reaching beyond the traditional audience... YOJIMBO & SANJURO were also non-anamorphic previously... It makes sense to remaster in HD and anamorphic and re-release...

On the evidence of this news the CC won't be rushing into BluRay or HDDDVD... Realistically not many existing customers will trade up to a new marginally better format, while we're still waiting for decent CC editions of LA NOTTE Aand PIERROT LE FOU to eclipse the previous non CC editions...

Toss a coin on the likelihood of ANDREI RUBLEV and AMARCORD being HD and anamorphic remastered, although they would definitely be my preferences!...

Narshty · #3 Post by **Narshty** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:31 pm

Picnic at Hanging Rock was transferred in high-def, which makes even less work for a reissue:

Picnic at Hanging Rock is presented in the director's preferred aspect ratio of 1.66:1. This new digital transfer was created on a high-definition Spirit Datacine from a new 35mm interpostive made from the original negative.

ellipsis7 · #4 Post by **ellipsis7** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:39 pm

But Non-Anamorphic which seems to be an equal if not greater issue... Hence the remaster...

alandau · #5 Post by **alandau** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:26 am

I received my TALES OF HOFFMANN and it is "ostensibly" a high definition transfer To quote exactly what is on the back, "new restored high definition digital transfer." Does this augur of things to come?

ellipsis7 · #6 Post by **ellipsis7** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:26 am

There have been HD transfers since spine #98 or so (L'AVVENTURA)! We're now well into the #300's...

Narshty · #7 Post by **Narshty** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:56 am

Criterion were actually starting to do high-def transfers at the tail-end of the laserdisc era. That's why fairly early titles like The Last Temptation of Christ, The Unbearable Lightness of Being and Life of Brian are anamorphic - they're all straight ports from laserdisc, thus were able to produce 16x9 downconversions from the high-def masters they already had.

Narshty · #8 Post by **Narshty** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:48 am

Nah, most of the early DVDs were either recycled laserdisc masters, sometimes with additional digital restoration (Beauty and the Beast, The 400 Blows) or, where new transfers were undertaken (Seventh Seal, Grand Illusion), were "merely" standard definition, though they still look great.

denti alligator · #9 Post by **denti alligator** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:36 am

Narshty wrote:Nah, most of the early DVDs were either recycled laserdisc masters, sometimes with additional digital restoration (Beauty and the Beast, The 400 Blows) or, where new transfers were undertaken (Seventh Seal, Grand Illusion), were "merely" standard definition, though they still look great.

Ok, what the fuck's the difference?
We're not talking about progressive vs. interlaced, right?
What, technically (but not too technical, please) is the difference between hi-def and, um standard def?

Gigi M. · #10 Post by **Gigi M.** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:08 pm

My question is: How much difference's going to be from Progressive to HD? You think will be worth it, investing in new equipment and movies again? I'm not planning to buy the same movies again just for better picture quality. I mean, in the case of Seven Samurai and others Criterions it is, but let say a new HD edition of Gone With The Wind for example. The four disc Collector's edition looks beautiful for Christ sake.

Can someone please explain.

Godot · #11 Post by **Godot** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:22 pm

Carlos wrote:How much difference's going to be from Progressive to HD? You think will be worth it, investing in new equipment and movies again? I'm not planning to buy the same movies again just for better picture quality. I mean, in the case of Seven Samurai and others Criterions it is, but let say a new HD edition of Gone With The Wind for example. The four disc Collector's edition looks beautiful for Christ sake.

Well, just a back of the envelope estimate would be 300% increase in resolution (comparing 480p EDTV to 720p HDTV). You can see some of this increase by viewing movies on HD-Net (which are upconverted, so are truly more like "near-HD") in 720p and toggling to a progressive-scan DVD input on 480p, which I did with Spiderman 2 last week as a demonstration for my (completely unimpressed) wife. So, presuming you have an HDTV now (unless you are viewing the 480p on EDTV), you should be able to pick up HD signals OTA or on your cable/sattelite service to compare.

However, you touch on an important factor in the resistance to upgrade to HD-DVDs: if the improvement is only in image quality, there is not much impetus to spend the money, since DVD (even 480i) is so vastly superior to its major predecessor, VHS (let's leave out Laserdisc, a different argument) that many people are pleased. There were so many other factors in moving from VHS to DVD (smaller, lighter, better sound, OAR, options on sound, subtitles, languages, chapter skipping and menus, extra features such as commentaries and documentaries and interviews, mail services like Netflix, the similarity to CD technology which had already overwhelmed audio-tape) that a similar move from DVD to HD-DVD would involve using the extra media memory (640% more) not only for the image quality but also for even more extras and options. I don't see that happening, at least initially. I think one of the key advantages of DVD over VHS was/is price: most DVDs of the same movie are the same or lower, plus offering all the attributes listed above. I was ashen-faced as I went through my boxes of tapes I had sought after long and hard, many of them letterboxed specialties from HomeVision, realizing that I had bought the DVDs for less money just a few years later. I remember skipping for joy when I found the new letterboxed release of Branded to Kill at Tower for $29.95 ... on tape. Unless HD-DVDs are priced reasonably, I don't think they will gain a foothold for a few years.

Plus, they will only be valued entertainment on HDTVs; at least DVDs could also be viewed on standard TVs (and still are by >98% of the market).

Gigi M. · #12 Post by **Gigi M.** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:39 pm

Thanks a lot Godot. I really need it that explanation. In my case I think I'll never upgrade my collection to HD. I've invested so much money over the years in movies that, now that I stop to think about it, kinda hurts a little.

#13 Post by **zedz** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:03 pm

Godot wrote: There were so many other factors in moving from VHS to DVD (smaller, lighter, better sound, OAR, options on sound, subtitles, languages, chapter skipping and menus, extra features such as commentaries and documentaries and interviews, mail services like Netflix, the similarity to CD technology which had already overwhelmed audio-tape) that a similar move from DVD to HD-DVD would involve using the extra media memory (640% more) not only for the image quality but also for even more extras and options.

Thanks for the astute summary. I agree that a large part of the appeal of DVD (particularly in the collectors' market) has been in the area of extra media and features (and, in general, that the format could do things that video could not do at all, rather than it could do video's job better), so the additional capacity on HD-DVD will be a moot point unless the disc producers can find compelling features with which to fill it. Frankly, a lot of major releases now are scraping the bottom of the barrel as far as extra features go. If they can't even fill a single DVD intelligently, I dread to think what they'll inflict on us in the new format (multiple hairdresser commentaries, anyone?).

In practical terms, I expect that the majors will simply repackage big titles in improved transfers with similar features to DVD. The major difference may simply be that all of the supplementary features can be housed on a single disc. If they don't find new kinds of quality content to present in the new format, that format is likely to remain in the techhead ghetto.

Godot · #14 Post by **Godot** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:55 pm

zedz wrote:In practical terms, I expect that the majors will simply repackage big titles in improved transfers with similar features to DVD. ... If they don't find new kinds of quality content to present in the new format, that format is likely to remain in the techhead ghetto.

Regrettably, I agree. Usually I'm the first one to be touting a new technology and spreading the excitement, but I'm cautious on HD-DVD. Once there are a handful of titles available, I think it would be instructive to compare a given HD-DVD film on an HD-player to that same film (in 480p) through HDMI/DVI and an upconverter. How closely would the upconverter and digital transmission approximate the new HD-DVD encoding? That sort of A/B comparison will probably be done in the usual A/V magazines and sites, and may challenge the high prices for HD players/media (and sell more upconverters) if it's not overwhelming.

Tribe · #15 Post by **Tribe** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:45 pm

Godot wrote: Well, just a back of the envelope estimate would be 300% increase in resolution (comparing 480p EDTV to 720p HDTV). You can see some of this increase by viewing movies on HD-Net (which are upconverted, so are truly more like "near-HD") in 720p and toggling to a progressive-scan DVD input on 480p, which I did with Spiderman 2 last week as a demonstration for my (completely unimpressed) wife.

Rick, Mrs. Tribe still thinks I'm full of shit when I try to show her the improvement in image when it is upconverted. She'll give me that look, like "sure...yeah...looks great, honey...now put CSI back on."

Tribe

The Invunche · #16 Post by **The Invunche** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 3:51 am

Divorce a woman that watches CSI? I think not.

Gigi M. · #17 Post by **Gigi M.** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:44 am

Tribe wrote:
Godot wrote: Well, just a back of the envelope estimate would be 300% increase in resolution (comparing 480p EDTV to 720p HDTV). You can see some of this increase by viewing movies on HD-Net (which are upconverted, so are truly more like "near-HD") in 720p and toggling to a progressive-scan DVD input on 480p, which I did with Spiderman 2 last week as a demonstration for my (completely unimpressed) wife.
Rick, Mrs. Tribe still thinks I'm full of shit when I try to show her the improvement in image when it is upconverted. She'll give me that look, like "sure...yeah...looks great, honey...now put CSI back on."

Tribe

Hmm. So, what your're basically saying that we should stop investing in current dvds and wait for HD?

Godot · #18 Post by **Godot** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 4:59 pm

Hmm. So, what your're basically saying that we should stop investing in current dvds and wait for HD?

No, quite the opposite. I think the quality of the current DVDs, especially when progressively scanned (480p), and upconverted (as many newer DVD players feature), and digitally transferred to the monitor (or projector) via DMI or HDMI, will be comparable to the first round of HD-DVDs (when both are viewed on HDTVs). So I would wait on HD-DVD, until I see how their value (how many extra features they cram into the HD media, the quality of the video improvement) compares to the known value of current DVD. I think the additional elements necessary for HD-DVD (an HDTV, DVI/HDMI cables) will get lumped in with HD-DVD media evaluations as "proof" of the improvement of HD-DVD over the current media. However, if you were to use those same elements now, combined with an upconverting DVD player, I think you would notice an improvement on the current 480p standard DVD video quality.

Godot · #19 Post by **Godot** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 6:59 pm

And Mr Tribe why don't you marry Mr Godot?

Because I'd have to renounce my Republican Party membership, and membership has it's privileges*, which means I'd have to leave Orange County. I'd probably have to move to L.A. county, or (shudder) Riverside County. And that's if I could convince Tribe to move out here; what if he demands that we live in Toledo? I don't handle freezing cold and 10 feet of snow. And he hangs out with icky union scallywags; what, like CEOs, CFOs, CTOs and ExecVPs don't have rights? He pro'lly wouldn't let me watch FoxNews anymore, and then how would I know who's undermining our core values and endangering our troops with their treasonous whining?

This ain't fuckin' Oz, you know.

*Aside from the secret handshake, access to clean toilets, opportunities for promotions and pay raises, and real estate listings for all-white neighborhoods, I would most miss the covert gas stations set up for RNC use: fuel processed from oil pumped directly from Iraq and ANWR, and I filled up my Hummer last night for $15 ... that's $0.60 a gallon, dude. Put that in your pansy Hybrid and smoke it.

Tribe · #20 Post by **Tribe** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:58 pm

Godot wrote:
And Mr Tribe why don't you marry Mr Godot?

Because I'd have to renounce my Republican Party membership, and membership has it's privileges*, which means I'd have to leave Orange County. I'd probably have to move to L.A. county, or (shudder) Riverside County. And that's if I could convince Tribe to move out here; what if he demands that we live in Toledo? I don't handle freezing cold and 10 feet of snow. And he hangs out with icky union scallywags; what, like CEOs, CFOs, CTOs and ExecVPs don't have rights? He pro'lly wouldn't let me watch FoxNews anymore, and then how would I know who's undermining our core values and endangering our troops with their treasonous whining?

This ain't fuckin' Oz, you know.

Ya know, he gave me the exact same line the last time I proposed to him when I caught him crossing a picket line...

Tribe

Tribe · #21 Post by **Tribe** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:03 pm

CURRENT CONDITIONS
Toledo, OH: Light Snow/Fog and 25Â°F (-3Â°C)
Humidity: 86% Barometer: 30 in Wind: 9 mph E Visibility: 1 mi

CURRENT CONDITIONS
Anaheim, CA: Clear and 62Â°F (16Â°C)
Humidity: 30% Barometer: 30 in. Wind: 0 mph Visibility: 10 mi.

Tribe

Gordon · #22 Post by **Gordon** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:08 pm

Frames-per-second is irrelevent in a high-def transfer - right?

So when a silent film element is transfered to high-def - as with any film element - the speed doesn't have to be altered - right?

So a 16-20fps silent films will all run at the correct speed in Blu-Ray DVD - right? No more unintentionally funny Keystone Cops speed-up on so many landmark films, yes? That will be one less thing to worry about.

Am I right or am I right?!

peerpee · #23 Post by **peerpee** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:35 pm

A film is transferred at whatever speed the machinery is set to. Regardless of whether it's SD or HD.

ben d banana · #24 Post by **ben d banana** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:01 am

For you to fully realize the benefit of Blu-ray/HD DVD you'll not only need a new player and discs, but a new TV as well, correct? None (or very few) of even the recently released 1080p sets are actually able to receive the 1080p signal that will be output. It seems like a pretty costly undertaking, and I'm plenty happy with my new plasma and upconverting Oppo DVD player.

HerrSchreck · #25 Post by **HerrSchreck** » Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:13 am

zedz wrote: Frankly, a lot of major releases now are scraping the bottom of the barrel as far as extra features go. If they can't even fill a single DVD intelligently, I dread to think what they'll inflict on us in the new format (multiple hairdresser commentaries, anyone?).

If they don't find new kinds of quality content to present in the new format, that format is likely to remain in the techhead ghetto.

...Painfully true statement.

Most Basic Example: I love the film noir releases the studios are now packaging in deluxe editions. But how many more times can I listen to James Ursini, with or without Alan Silver, without hangjumping off a fucking ladder into the fireplace & end it all?

Hey Criterion? When is "PETER BOGDONAVICH-- A LIFE IN BONUS FEATURES" coming out? I heard Peter Bogdonavich is doing the commentary to the Peter Bogdonavich intro to the fucking thing.

(That flump is me falling to the floor from a head-bullet, self inflicted, anticipating looking at that man's glasses & hangdog face yet again in ARKADIN)