Criterion and UHD

[rrenault]

A Three Colors Trilogy UHD release from Criterion should be a near certainty, and I expect it’ll be superior to Potemkine’s UHD release in France, although it’ll only be a day one purchase for me if it gets the “reference quality” designation. Otherwise, I can hold out for the Criterion Channel to go 4K.

Rules of the Game is getting a UHD release in France later this summer. I’m assuming, since Criterion was heavily involved with the restoration, the French UHD will be a “joint venture” of sorts with CC like the European Mulholland Drive release. Hopefully that alone should ensure the encoding doesn’t wind up being atrocious.

As for Breathless and Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie, I wouldn’t expect a Criterion UHD to massively improve on the present Studio Canal discs, which seem to be fine by most accounts. I’m not sure why Canal’s Le Cercle Rouge and John Carpenter UHD encodes ending up being such abominations.

Barry Lyndon is another title I could seeing being an early UHD upgrade for Criterion.

[EddieLarkin]

The Virgin Suicides is 100% confirmed to be in HDR10. It is not SDR.

Criterion did say it would not use the available HDR range much beyond SDR though (but it does use the wider P3 colour gamut).

wow I totally missed where that was revealed, I swore their original email response said it would be SDR only. my bad! I'll be sure to pick that one up next month to see the difference between full DV and HDR10

HDR10 and DV are just delivery systems for HDR, there isn't necessarily going to be a difference between them. It depends entirely on the HDR grade of a particular film, and how a given TV reproduces it. And comparing the two systems across two different films would be pointless.

[dwk]

ah but Shaft was a WAC title, so that can of worms has been opened already!

Shaft was released on Blu by WB. That disc was later included in WAC's Shaft trilogy release, but I don't see any evidence that they issue it by itself.

[yoloswegmaster]

Yes, I don't even do the distinction between the branches since the HK one yielded the Bruce Lee movies that were color corrected by Shout then Criterion and I also recall text panels on Ritrovata'd restorations that were stating L'image retrouvée specifically (I'd say the concerned Tavernier and probably their Claude Berri too).

I decided to look at the transfer notes in Bruce Lee set and it says that the HK branch had scanned them but the color timing was specifically done by the main Ritrovato facility. I wouldn't be surprised if all of the other branches didn't have their own color timing team and would just send the scanned files back to the head office, though it seems like the HK office is now doing the color timing on their own since I'm fairly certain that most, if not all, of the Fortune Star titles are being restored by them and none have that nasty yellow tint to them.

[rrenault]

very good factoid there at the end, the three 'shared' titles of course being Citizen Kane, Mulholland Drive, and Le Cercle Rouge. I'm curious going forward to see what that ratio will look like, especially as we get more UHDs from Studiocanal in region B and so far, Criterion is the only US label doing UHDs from them (Kino and eventually Indicator seem like the only possibilities). The Trial is another forthcoming one I didn't mention that Criterion will almost certainly release on UHD in region A, with Canal handling B themselves.

Regarding the future ratio of Criterion UHD exclusives to 'shared' titles, I'd expect NxNW, Barry Lyndon, Eyes Wide Shut, and perhaps The Searchers to all get European UHDs from WB themselves in the event CC releases them in North America, just like Citizen Kane did. Even Badlands got a European blu-ray from WB while being treated by Criterion in North America. The market could probably support more than one English-friendly edition of NxNW and the Kubrick films.

Given Stoddart's position on a potential UHD of The 400 Blows from BFI, it's not a foregone conclusion that the Doinel films will get native 4K discs from Criterion. I wouldn't be surprised if a similar scenario ends up occurring with La Règle du Jeu, considering the OCN was destroyed during World War II. The lack of an OCN tends to affect the quality of available sources, especially for a pre-1940 film, such as 'Rules', so I'd say there's an outside chance only the French market gets a 'Rules' UHD as will potentially be the case with The 400 Blows. Criterion could always upgrade to a 4K-sourced blu-ray, although there doesn't seem to be much precedent for that among their standalone releases yet.

Le Samourai will almost certainly get UHDs both in France and from Criterion. I'm not sure what Pathe's track record is regarding UHD encodes. They handled the French UHD of Apocalypse Now, and I don't know how that encode compares to the US/UK one, but not every one of their blu-rays was nearly as atrocious as their Le Samourai one. Their release of The Leopard was fine by most accounts, question marks regarding the aspect ratio notwithstanding. It was better than the Criterion, despite not being English-friendly and some of the pressings being prone to disc rot issues.

P.S. Indicator haven't gone UHD yet, have they?

[tenia]

I decided to look at the transfer notes in Bruce Lee set and it says that the HK branch had scanned them but the color timing was specifically done by the main Ritrovato facility. I wouldn't be surprised if all of the other branches didn't have their own color timing team and would just send the scanned files back to the head office, though it seems like the HK office is now doing the color timing on their own since I'm fairly certain that most, if not all, of the Fortune Star titles are being restored by them and none have that nasty yellow tint to them.

The Chess Game of the Wind is only stating "restored by L'image retrouvée". Les grandes manoeuvres or Le mâle du siècle state "L'image retrouvée, Paris / Bologne", the Kiarostami / Kanoon movies state L'image retrouvée Paris / Bologne in the French part of the text panel and L'immagine Ritrovata Paris / Bologna in the English one, Cyrano de Bergerac and La religieuse just state L'image retrouvée.
That's why, whatever the technical or human reason behind this, I don't split the end-results per branch, since they're pretty much interchangeable. It might very well be that part of the staff is split between branches anyway, or that the same training and thus resulting approach have been deployed over the different branches to ensure one isn't doing things differently than the other, or that the Italian branch handles all the gradings regardless of where the material was scanned.

I'm fairly certain that most, if not all, of the Fortune Star titles are being restored by them and none have that nasty yellow tint to them.

I'm not so sure. From the HK stuff we at first saw being restored recently, Ritrovata did the 3 Police Story and OUATIC 3 but haven't done City Hunter and Wheels on Meals for instance (IIRC, they also haven't done the 2 Project A). However, we know there were involved at least in part on In The Mood For Love or Made in Hong Kong, and both movies (despite the statement that One Cool Prod did the grading or did some color corrections) have had their gradings discussed as bearing the Ritrovata color signature.

[rrenault]

-who would've thought Le Cercle Rouge and Okja would be the only two non-English language UHDs so far, almost a year in?

How many non-English (read: "foreign") films have received English-friendly UHD blu-rays in general so far? I can think of Breathless, The Seventh Seal, Le Cercle Rouge, Discreet Charm of the Bourgeoisie, Parasite, Cinema Paradiso, Oldboy, and the Police Story trilogy. Am I missing anything? I'm not sure Okja is fully "foreign".

Of course, the French-language market has also gotten the Antoine Doinel series, the Three Colors Trilogy, The Double Life of Veronique, La Haine, La Piscine, and Rules of the Game.

[EddieLarkin]

Am I missing anything?

Battle Royale
Dial Code Santa Claus
Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon
Ebola Syndrome
Pan's Labyrinth
Ran
Dragon's Forever
Lamb
King Kong vs. Godzilla

[rrenault]

Am I missing anything?

Battle Royale
Dial Code Santa Claus
Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon
Ebola Syndrome
Pan's Labyrinth
Ran
Dragon's Forever
Lamb
King Kong vs. Godzilla

Oh s**t. How could I forget Pan's Labyrinth, Ran, and Crouching Tiger? :face palm:

[tenia]

Le chat qui fume's Bayan Ko, La rose écorchée and La traque UHDs have English subs. I believe their UHD of Les week-ends maléfiques du Comte Zaroff also has some.

[The Fanciful Norwegian]

Some others released in the U.S.:

The Burning Sea
The Day of the Beast
Ghost in the Shell
Ip Man 1-4
Peninsula
Shadow
Thriller: A Cruel Picture
Weathering with You

There's also the various Argentos and Fulcis, but that gets us into the whole issue of English vs. Italian dubbing.

[cj-535]

+ Millennium Actress, Your Name and Akira.

[Calvin]

I'll see the new restoration next week so I'll let you know if it looks off. I've only ever seen it projected previously from 35mm; was the previous Pathe restoration any better on DCP than it was on disc?

The film was preceded by text explaining that the restoration was still a work in progress and that grading wasn't final, but it looked pretty good to me. Certainly no traces of Ritrovato's trademark yellow. The color timing is being carried out under the supervision of Bruno Nyutten, for some reason.

[MichaelB]

I was at the same screening, and concur - there were a couple of moments where I hope we weren’t seeing the final versions of individual shots, but for the most part it looked superb.

[DeprongMori]

I'll see the new restoration next week so I'll let you know if it looks off. I've only ever seen it projected previously from 35mm; was the previous Pathe restoration any better on DCP than it was on disc?

The film was preceded by text explaining that the restoration was still a work in progress and that grading wasn't final, but it looked pretty good to me. Certainly no traces of Ritrovato's trademark yellow. The color timing is being carried out under the supervision of Bruno Nyutten, for some reason.

Trying to determine which film is being discussed here. Looking back through previous posts, I’m guessing it’s Le Samouraï, but am not certain. It’s helpful to occasionally add the title back in to new responses once context is lost over a week of other conversations. Thanks.

[yoloswegmaster]

The Infernal Affairs Trilogy and Memories of Murder are getting 4K UHD releases in France, so I wouldn't be surprised if Criterion also released them on 4K.

[dwk]

Memories of Murder would depend on if Criterion licensed the UHD rights from Neon (and it is a strong possibility that they have or can get them, as it seems Neon isn't really interested in doing UHDs via Decal Releasing.)

The Infernal Affairs Trilogy does seem like an obvious UHD release, but Cure was an obvious UHD release (a horror film from the 90s) and that didn't happen. Granted that could be because Daiei blocked it, something Media Asia likely wouldn't do.

[colinr0380]

So....would a UHD of Jeanne Dielman be a possibility?

[hearthesilence]

So....would a UHD of Jeanne Dielman be a possibility?

I think they only have a 2K restoration at the moment, so no?

[senseabove]

That's all I can find reported, and it seems unlikely they would've scanned in 4k and done the restoration in 2k... Don't know if it was a matter of available elements or just poor timing for it getting done before 4k restorations became more standard, since others like Les Rendes-vous d'Anna were done at 4k.

[yoloswegmaster]

So....would a UHD of Jeanne Dielman be a possibility?

I think they only have a 2K restoration at the moment, so no?

It was a 2K restoration done from a 4K scan IIRC, so I guess they can always go back to the scan and do a 4K restoration form there.

[hearthesilence]

That's all I can find reported, and it seems unlikely they would've scanned in 4k and done the restoration in 2k...

I can see that being timing and also a matter of money - that is, they could do a 4K scan for archival reasons but due to a limited budget restore it in 2K for commercial release. (Restoring in 4K does increase costs in a lot of ways, from paying for more data storage to slowing down the workflow, i.e. increasing paid labor hours, etc.) I personally wouldn't have done it, but I understand why they would for various reasons.

[Calvin]

A Portrait of a Lady on Fire upgrade would be easy for them to do, so I'll be surprised if it doesn't happen in 2023

[rrenault]

Which prominent S&S risers could we expect to get UHD releases sooner rather than later? From what I've heard, the elements for Tokyo Story aren't exactly UHD-friendly, although that's always been prominent on the list anyway. Portrait of a Lady on Fire seems like a safe bet, but I'm less sure about Jeanne Dielman, Close-Up, Daisies, and Beau Travail.

Here's a list of every film in the critics top 50 available from Criterion on a sub-UHD format:

Jeanne Dielman
Tokyo Story
La Règle du Jeu (UHD in France)
Beau Travail
Persona
Daisies
Passion of Joan of Arc
Cleo From 5 to 7
Close-Up
Late Spring
Seven Samurai (would be a prime contender for UHD if rights issues were sorted out)
PlayTime
Do The Right Thing (already has a non-Criterion UHD)
Au Hasard Balthazar
Night of the Hunter (coming to UHD from Kino)
Shoah
Portrait of a Lady on Fire
8 1/2
Mirror
L'Atalante
Pather Panchali
City Lights
M
A Bout de Souffle (on UHD from Studio Canal)
Some Like It Hot (on UHD from Kino)
Bicycle Thieves
Rashomon
Stalker
Barry Lyndon (will surely get released on UHD from either Criterion or WB at some point)
Battle of Algiers
Ordet
Wanda
The 400 Blows (released on UHD in France)

[MV88]

Playtime is a sure contender for a UHD upgrade in the near future. 8½ will be a priority along with Seven Samurai (pending, as you said, rights issues) since those two titles have come to be seen as close to flagship releases for Criterion. I’m sure they’ll do Persona at some point, although I kind of feel like it won’t be the first Bergman UHD upgrade (Fanny and Alexander would be my guess for that). Beau Travail, Portrait of a Lady on Fire, Barry Lyndon, and maybe one of the Tarkovsky films are the only others I see as distinct possibilities to get UHD upgrades in the relatively near future.