BD 221-226 The Navigator, Seven Chances, Battling Butler, Our Hospitality, Go West & College

Discuss releases by Eureka and Masters of Cinema and the films on them.
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Ribs
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Re: BD 221-226 The Navigator, Seven Chances, Battling Butler, Our Hospitality, Go West & College

#26 Post by Ribs » Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:32 pm

The third set is available to order from Amazon again. Just seems like it was just weird release date stock issues.

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EddieLarkin
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Re: BD 221-226 The Navigator, Seven Chances, Battling Butler, Our Hospitality, Go West & College

#27 Post by EddieLarkin » Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:34 am

EddieLarkin wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:35 am
Kino have released the new Lobster restorations of:

Three Ages
Our Hospitality
The General
College
Steamboat Bill, Jr.


Eureka have released/announced the new Ritrovata restorations of:

Our Hospitality
Sherlock Jr
The Navigator
Seven Chances
Go West
Battling Butler
The General
College
Steamboat Bill, Jr.


Cohen have released 6 of these same Ritrovata restorations:

Sherlock Jr.
The Navigator
Seven Chances
Battling Butler
The General
Steamboat Bill, Jr.


Kino and Eureka both released the Lobster restorations of the 1917-1923 short films in 2016. Ritrovata have done a restoration of the 1920-1923 (non-Arbuckle) shorts, but they are so far unreleased.

This means everything Kino released in 2011/2012, bar The Saphead and the 1934-1937 Educational shorts, has been superseded. Ritrovata have done a restoration of The Saphead, also unreleased.

Criterion's release of The Cameraman and Spite Marriage completes his entire silent era output.
To complicate things further, it now transpires that the newer Kino releases of College and Our Hospitality are transferred from elements clearly superior to what Cohen/Eureka are using for this release:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... stcount=73

And since Three Ages is AWOL for now from Cohen/Eureka, it means all three of Kino's editions (they combined 4 of the films into twofers) are pretty essential. Even their Steamboat Bill Jr, which seems on par with the Cohen/Eureka version, is transferred from a source originating from what must have been an alternative camera/neg:

https://forum.blu-ray.com/showpost.php? ... stcount=41

Which release is based off the "A" camera and which is based off the "B", who knows.

Only the Kino version of The General is clearly inferior to the Cohen/Eureka, but even there they have a nice bonus of being the only release to carry the Joe Hisaishi score.

In other words, only by having all 3 of Eureka's releases and all 3 of Kino's does one get the best combination of all the 1923-1928 features.

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tenia
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Re: BD 221-226 The Navigator, Seven Chances, Battling Butler, Our Hospitality, Go West & College

#28 Post by tenia » Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:04 am

Also, per a Lobster insider : The Navigator & Sherlock Jr have also been restored by Lobster. Navigator is from a new 4K restoration from a nitrate copy from MoMA which is said to be the "best available element and Bologna didn't have access to it", while Sherlock will be from a 4K scan of an element from similar quality and generation than what Cohen used. The Navigator will have a French BD release, with Sherlock Jr included as an extra (since there isn't a clear quality gap).

These parallel restorations have turned into a real clusterf*** for people who simply want to buy a BD release sourced from the best restoration and avoid double-dipping.

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TMDaines
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Re: BD 221-226 The Navigator, Seven Chances, Battling Butler, Our Hospitality, Go West & College

#29 Post by TMDaines » Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:17 am

The last few months have been a clusterfuck for what restorations are showing up where.

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therewillbeblus
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Re: BD 221-226 The Navigator, Seven Chances, Battling Butler, Our Hospitality, Go West & College

#30 Post by therewillbeblus » Wed Sep 02, 2020 10:22 am

Hopefully Three Ages shows up in some capacity overseas, but this feels like too much double dipping to get the optimal versions of everything. At this point I'll be happy with any solid resto that doesn't involve repurchasing the MoC films elsewhere.

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yoloswegmaster
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Re: BD 221-226 The Navigator, Seven Chances, Battling Butler, Our Hospitality, Go West & College

#31 Post by yoloswegmaster » Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:52 am

I'm totally lost right now, so can someone please tell me if the MoC set with The General/Steamboat Bill Jr./Sherlock Jr. is the best version of these films? Thanks in advance.

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EddieLarkin
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Re: BD 221-226 The Navigator, Seven Chances, Battling Butler, Our Hospitality, Go West & College

#32 Post by EddieLarkin » Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:22 pm

Yes. The General is superior to the Kino, Steamboat is essentially equal, and Sherlock Jr hasn't been released in the Lobster restoration yet, so there's nothing to compare.

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Re: BD 221-226 The Navigator, Seven Chances, Battling Butler, Our Hospitality, Go West & College

#33 Post by swo17 » Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:27 pm

Except Kino's score for The General is arguably superior.

I don't mind doubling up between MoC and Kino, though it's kind of annoying that I can't get rid of my old Kino set at the same time, since the "Lost Keaton" shorts are prohibitively expensive on their own

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EddieLarkin
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Re: BD 221-226 The Navigator, Seven Chances, Battling Butler, Our Hospitality, Go West & College

#34 Post by EddieLarkin » Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:59 pm

The box for mine fell apart long ago, so I think I'll just sell the second and third cases, featuring 9 of the films, and just keep the first and fourth cases to retain Lost Keaton, The Saphead and the Douris transfers of the 1920-23 shorts.

Someone will take em.

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TMDaines
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Re: BD 221-226 The Navigator, Seven Chances, Battling Butler, Our Hospitality, Go West & College

#35 Post by TMDaines » Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:09 am

Received my copy of the 3rd box today. Basically same packaging as 2nd box but has a fold around card with specs as opposed to being printed directly onto the back of the box, i.e. like The African Queen.

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Re: BD 221-226 The Navigator, Seven Chances, Battling Butler, Our Hospitality, Go West & College

#36 Post by kompromiss » Thu Oct 08, 2020 3:51 am

Volume 3 of MoC Keaton is said to have "College" from a 2K restoration.
Announcement for "The Buster Keaton Collection - Volume 4" lists "College" as BRAND NEW 4K RESTORATION.
Are there two different Cohen/Ritrovata restorations of this film in existence?

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hearthesilence
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Re: BD 221-226 The Navigator, Seven Chances, Battling Butler, Our Hospitality, Go West & College

#37 Post by hearthesilence » Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:36 am

FWIW, Lobster's restoration of The Navigator will be at MoMA's To Save and Project festival THIS Saturday and Monday the 24th, which is pretty appropriate given that it's MoMA's print that was used for the restoration. (And from the screen caps I've seen, it blows away the Cohen restoration, which is also kind of irritating because now I've got to buy Lobster's Blu-ray.)

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EddieLarkin
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Re: BD 221-226 The Navigator, Seven Chances, Battling Butler, Our Hospitality, Go West & College

#38 Post by EddieLarkin » Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:22 am

hearthesilence wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:36 am
(And from the screen caps I've seen, it blows away the Cohen restoration, which is also kind of irritating because now I've got to buy Lobster's Blu-ray.)
Do we know if the Lobster Blu-ray has English intertitles or if they've been replaced with French? And how about Sherlock Jr on the same disc, and how it compares to the Cohen version?

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hearthesilence
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Re: BD 221-226 The Navigator, Seven Chances, Battling Butler, Our Hospitality, Go West & College

#39 Post by hearthesilence » Wed Jan 12, 2022 11:41 am

EddieLarkin wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 5:22 am
hearthesilence wrote:
Wed Jan 12, 2022 1:36 am
(And from the screen caps I've seen, it blows away the Cohen restoration, which is also kind of irritating because now I've got to buy Lobster's Blu-ray.)
Do we know if the Lobster Blu-ray has English intertitles or if they've been replaced with French? And how about Sherlock Jr on the same disc, and how it compares to the Cohen version?
I haven't seen evidence myself, but on one of the other forums, it was mentioned that English intertitles were used (presumably the same ones found on MoMA's print) with French subtitles that can be turned off on a PlayStation. As for Sherlock Jr., someone mentioned in passing that Cohen's (or specifically the version found on Eureka/MoC) is still preferable.

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Re: BD 221-226 The Navigator, Seven Chances, Battling Butler, Our Hospitality, Go West & College

#40 Post by DeprongMori » Mon Aug 29, 2022 3:35 pm

I’m trying to upgrade my way through the dizzying array of Buster Keaton restorations/presentations. I’ve got the 2011 Kino “Ultimate” box-set as my foundation, and the MOC “Shorts” Blu-ray set, and am currently upgrading to the MOC releases of the features from the Ritrovata restorations. Sadly I missed out on Eureka’s limited edition first runs and am making do with the subsequent standard editions, starting with Volume 3 (Our Hospitality, Go West!, and College).

The MOC Our Hospitality disc, while including the Carl Davis score and the Making Comedy Beautiful supplement from the Kino “Ultimate” release, unfortunately (and inexplicably) does not also include Arbuckle’s The Iron Mule, which is heavily referenced in that supplement as the later short features the train created for Keaton’s film and Keaton in a variety of cameos and bit parts.

I’m never going to be able to get rid of the largely outdated Kino “Ultimate” box, am I?

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ryannichols7
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Re: BD 221-226 The Navigator, Seven Chances, Battling Butler, Our Hospitality, Go West & College

#41 Post by ryannichols7 » Mon Aug 29, 2022 3:45 pm

if there's anything I've learned over the years collecting silents (and it has been said by other members on here), it's so incredibly rare we get a completely "definitive" version of any single film. there is seemingly always a score, a commentary, a presentation that isn't going to get carried over. I thought these MOC Keatons would be completely definitive (and they are close!) but I still ended up buying the Kino Our Hospitality due to it having the only commentary that Farran Smith Nehme and Imogen Sara Smith have done together so far (and it's a great track!). the Kino version of The General also has the Joe Hisashi score as well, so that's also worth a pickup.

I had to hunt down a copy of the ancient Milestone DVD of Tabu because it has a full length commentary from Janet Bergstrom. I'm actually trying to think of a silent edition that I find truly definitive...Metropolis maybe? Criterion's Chaplin titles too. but honestly Keaton has definitely given me the biggest headache collecting, there's just so much variation its ridiculous. but I think the general rule is that the MOC and newer Kino/Lobster editions compliment themselves, but MOC and Cohen are no need to crossover at all. same transfers but limited/little extras on Cohen discs

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swo17
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Re: BD 221-226 The Navigator, Seven Chances, Battling Butler, Our Hospitality, Go West & College

#42 Post by swo17 » Mon Aug 29, 2022 4:16 pm

DeprongMori wrote:
Mon Aug 29, 2022 3:35 pm
I’m trying to upgrade my way through the dizzying array of Buster Keaton restorations/presentations. I’ve got the 2011 Kino “Ultimate” box-set as my foundation, and the MOC “Shorts” Blu-ray set, and am currently upgrading to the MOC releases of the features from the Ritrovata restorations. Sadly I missed out on Eureka’s limited edition first runs and am making do with the subsequent standard editions, starting with Volume 3 (Our Hospitality, Go West!, and College).

The MOC Our Hospitality disc, while including the Carl Davis score and the Making Comedy Beautiful supplement from the Kino “Ultimate” release, unfortunately (and inexplicably) does not also include Arbuckle’s The Iron Mule, which is heavily referenced in that supplement as the later short features the train created for Keaton’s film and Keaton in a variety of cameos and bit parts.

I’m never going to be able to get rid of the largely outdated Kino “Ultimate” box, am I?
Well, specifically for Our Hospitality there's the 2019 Kino reissue including both Un duel à mort and The Iron Mule as extras and a different restoration that the MoC from Lobster Films. I believe at this point I'm only still hanging on to the original Kino Keaton Blu-ray set because the "Lost Keaton" shorts haven't otherwise been made available

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Re: BD 221-226 The Navigator, Seven Chances, Battling Butler, Our Hospitality, Go West & College

#43 Post by ryannichols7 » Mon Aug 29, 2022 6:08 pm

that 2019 Our Hospitality disc also is tinted unlike the MOC, I think it was a very justifiable double dip. nice reversible cover too

I wasn't aware of the "Lost Shorts" thing, now I gotta go look for a copy of that..

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swo17
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Re: BD 221-226 The Navigator, Seven Chances, Battling Butler, Our Hospitality, Go West & College

#44 Post by swo17 » Mon Aug 29, 2022 6:15 pm

It's his 16 films made with Educational Pictures from 1934-1937, and good luck finding it for a decent price

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Finch
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Re: BD 221-226 The Navigator, Seven Chances, Battling Butler, Our Hospitality, Go West & College

#45 Post by Finch » Tue Aug 30, 2022 4:50 am

It's so frustrating to me that no one except Kino has ever used the Hisashi score for The General (the Davis is "fine"). It's the best accompaniment for the film, to me, anyway, like James Bernard's score for Nosferatu is the only way I watch the film (I'd honestly take a BFI UHD of the black and white version with the Bernard score over the MoC restoration any day).

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Re: BD 221-226 The Navigator, Seven Chances, Battling Butler, Our Hospitality, Go West & College

#46 Post by Orlac » Tue Sep 06, 2022 8:00 am

Finch wrote:
Tue Aug 30, 2022 4:50 am
It's so frustrating to me that no one except Kino has ever used the Hisashi score for The General (the Davis is "fine"). It's the best accompaniment for the film, to me, anyway, like James Bernard's score for Nosferatu is the only way I watch the film (I'd honestly take a BFI UHD of the black and white version with the Bernard score over the MoC restoration any day).
Nosferatu in black and white is just daft...you've got a vampire walking around at high noon in a film that invented the concept of vampires being destroyed by sunlight!

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Yakushima
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Re: BD 221-226 The Navigator, Seven Chances, Battling Butler, Our Hospitality, Go West & College

#47 Post by Yakushima » Tue Sep 06, 2022 10:18 am

Agreed with Finch that the lack of Hisaishi score is the most upsetting omission for the majority of The General releases. And most frustratingly, even Kino has it in a wrong pitch ](*,)

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Re: BD 221-226 The Navigator, Seven Chances, Battling Butler, Our Hospitality, Go West & College

#48 Post by denti alligator » Tue Sep 06, 2022 6:12 pm

For those of us who don’t care about scores or extras or commentaries but only want the best restoration and encoding, which editions are the ones to get? I’m now utterly confused.

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Re: BD 221-226 The Navigator, Seven Chances, Battling Butler, Our Hospitality, Go West & College

#49 Post by denti alligator » Sun Jan 22, 2023 11:22 am

Eddie Larkin wrote:
denti alligator wrote:
Tue Sep 06, 2022 6:12 pm
For those of us who don’t care about scores or extras or commentaries but only want the best restoration and encoding, which editions are the ones to get? I’m now utterly confused.
Arbuckle Shorts (1917-1920) - MoC 2016 Shorts Blu-ray

The Saphead - MoC 2022 Blu-ray

The High Sign - Kino 2011 Shorts Blu-ray
One Week - Kino 2011 Shorts Blu-ray
Convict 13 - MoC 2016 Shorts Blu-ray
The Scarecrow - Kino 2011 Shorts Blu-ray
Neighbors - MoC 2016 Shorts Blu-ray
The Haunted House - Kino 2011 Shorts Blu-ray and MoC 2016 Shorts Blu-ray
Hard Luck - Kino 2016 Shorts Blu-ray
The Goat - Kino 2011 Shorts Blu-ray
The Playhouse - MoC 2016 Shorts Blu-ray
The Boat - MoC 2016 Shorts Blu-ray
The Paleface - Kino 2011 Shorts Blu-ray
Cops - Kino 2011 Shorts Blu-ray
My Wife's Relations - MoC 2016 Shorts Blu-ray
The Blacksmith - MoC 2016 Shorts Blu-ray
The Frozen North - MoC 2016 Shorts Blu-ray
The Electric House - MoC 2016 Shorts Blu-ray
Day Dreams - MoC 2016 Shorts Blu-ray
The Balloonatic - Kino 2011 Shorts Blu-ray
The Love Nest - MoC 2016 Shorts Blu-ray

Three Ages - Kino 2017 Blu-ray
Our Hospitality - Kino 2019 Blu-ray
Sherlock Jr. - MoC 2017 Vol 1 Blu-ray (std ed released 2019)
The Navigator - Complicated: the FR Lobster 2021 Blu-ray reportedly uses a superior restoration to the MoC Vol 2 2020 Blu-ray, but I've yet to see caps AND Lobster are notorious for encoding their stuff extremely poorly, especially their silents.
Seven Chances - MoC 2020 Vol 2 Blu-ray (std ed released 2021)
Go West - MoC 2020 Vol 3 Blu-ray (std ed released 2021)
Battling Butler - MoC 2020 Vol 2 Blu-ray (std ed released 2021)
The General - MoC 2017 Vol 1 Blu-ray (std ed released 2019)
College - Kino 2017 Blu-ray
Steamboat Bill, Jr. - Kino 2017 Blu-ray or MoC Vol 1 2017 Blu-ray (std ed released 2019)

The Cameraman - Criterion Blu-ray
Spite Marriage - Criterion Blu-ray
Free and Easy - WAC DVD
Doughboys - WAC DVD
Parlor, Bedroom and Bath - WAC DVD
Sidewalks of New York - WAC DVD
The Passionate Plumber - WAC DVD
Speak Easily
- WAC DVD
What! No Beer? - WAC DVD

Educational Pictures Shorts (1934-1937) - Kino 2012 Lost Keaton Blu-ray

Columbia Pictures Shorts (1939-1941) - Sony 2006 65th Anniversary DVD

Un duel a mort (1952) - Kino Our Hospitality Blu-ray
Film (1965) - BFI Blu-ray
The Railrodder (1965) - MoC Vol 3 Blu-ray
Buster Keaton Rides Again (1965) - MoC Vol 3 Blu-ray
The Scribe (1966) - Kino College Blu-ray or Moc Saphead Blu-ray

I think that covers just about everything you can get Keaton related on home video, outside of acting appearances like Twilight Zone and Sunset Blvd. If anyone knows of anything missing please let me know.
Damn! Thank you!

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DeprongMori
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Re: BD 221-226 The Navigator, Seven Chances, Battling Butler, Our Hospitality, Go West & College

#50 Post by DeprongMori » Sun Jan 22, 2023 2:32 pm

Fortunately I have most of these. Three questions on the list:

1) What is it that distinguishes the 2019 Kino release of the feature Our Hospitality?

2) Is there any notable difference between the 2011 Kino release of Educational Pictures Shorts in the big Keaton Blu-ray box set and their 2012 standalone Blu-ray release under the title Lost Keaton?

3) Is there a 2016 Kino Short Films release, as listed for Hard Luck, or is that a conflation of the 2011 Kino and 2016 MOC?

Thanks.

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