480 The Human Condition

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aox
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#151 Post by aox » Tue Dec 29, 2009 5:15 pm

3 is my favorite because Kaji seems to have lost a little idealism and naivety. It's a great conclusion and I love the end.

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knives
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#152 Post by knives » Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:13 pm

aox wrote:3 is my favorite because Kaji seems to have lost a little idealism and naivety. It's a great conclusion and I love the end.
I agree, part three is really where you have a perfect film. Part two, at least for me, is mostly great too even if I'm not a fan of the battle scene. The first part is really the only section that doesn't live up to itself.

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Max von Mayerling
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#153 Post by Max von Mayerling » Tue Dec 29, 2009 8:24 pm

Following up on these two comments: I saw the first film at the Gene Siskel in Chicago earlier this year and I hated it. I thought it bordered on being unbearable. But, since I'm a glutton for punishment, when the Criterion set showed up at my local video store, I rented the second film. And I found it to be pretty engaging, and made me rethink the first one to some degree. And then I rented the third one, and I thought it was amazing, and the ending was ... in my view, uncompromising. In some ways a reversal of the sentiment I reacted against in the first film ... and so that made me rethink the first film yet again, rethink what the director was up to in the first one. It's like the trilogy is a dissection of Kaji as a thinking moral creature coming to grips with what goes on. And I definitely think it would not work to simply watch the third film. I think the impact of the third film for me was only possible because I saw the other two. I then went and purchased the damn set (in the Barnes & Noble sale) and am looking forward to revisiting it, and in particular seeing the first film again from the vantage point of having seen the whole damn thing.

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Tommaso
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#154 Post by Tommaso » Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:59 am

Okay, I watched the second film last night and must say: everything that went wrong with Pt.1 went absolutely right with this one. Kaji's humanism is still there, of course, but it's no longer as blue-eyed and naive as in the first film. Kaji being influenced by the military system and making his way in it (to a degree) seems like a believable, perhaps inevitable and in any case entirely 'human' development, quite different from his pseudo-Christ-like behaviour in Pt.1. What's much more important is that the tear-jerking melodramatisms of the first film have been replaced by a much more gritty, often unbearably intense depiction of the cruelty of war and the mechanisms of army life. Whereas interior scenes in the first film often seemed to pose a problem for Kobayashi in terms of setting them up and of editing, the extended first half (set almost entirely inside the barracks) in the second film manages to perfectly convey the oppressiveness of the system, and the cinematography, while not exactly 'inventive', always seems pitch-perfect and constantly engaged me. The film has that relentless character that I missed in the first one; and even the music is used in a much sparser way and underlines what is happening, but is not trying to push us into sympathizing with Kaji or the other characters (it doesn't have to, because the film manages to achieve this effect by its own means now).

So, all in all, this indeed feels like the work of a different director, or rather: it shows a very quick maturation on the filmmaker's part in my view. I don't believe - even though the change in Kaji's character is intentional - that the difference in style between those two films was fully planned from the beginning, as only this second film has the assuredness in handling its cinematic techniques that we've come to expect from Kobayashi's later films. Now I'm really looking forward to the final installment. But as to Pt.2, I can say without any reservations: a truly excellent film.

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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#155 Post by viewtiful alan » Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:50 pm

I'm curious as to how this trilogy did at the Japanese box office, and if it got much circulation on the U.S. foreign film scene upon its original release.

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aox
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#156 Post by aox » Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:37 pm

I'm curious how Tommaso reacts to the 3rd film.

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Tommaso
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#157 Post by Tommaso » Fri Jan 08, 2010 8:36 am

I'll try to watch it this weekend.

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HerrSchreck
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#158 Post by HerrSchreck » Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:31 am

I'm just past the halfway mark of 3 and it is by FAR the best of the bunch. Out of a max of 4 stars (masterpiece) I'd give part one 2 & 3/4 stars, I'd give part two 3 & 1/4 stars, and I'd give three four stars without question. You watch a good, very fine director turn into a master of his craft right before your very eyes.

It's theoretically possible of course to comment on the films seperately, sheerly in technical terms, but narratively it seems a fruitless excercise, as watching part one without seeing where the narrative takes this (initially) extremely naive man misses the entire point, amputates cognizance of the entire goal and statement of the film, which is very much a 'journey' film, in terms of Kaji's intellectual, moral, and emotional sojourn.

I'm finding part three simply astonishing. Kobayashi was a wonderful filmmaker, and a hell of a dude, to boot... and Nakadia's rendition of Kaji. . . it's a fucking obelisk standing in a field of actor's performances. All the more impressive owing to his young age and inexperience before the camera.

In my tabulation, CC's release of the year (on the mainline, that is) beyond all question.

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HerrSchreck
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#159 Post by HerrSchreck » Sat Jan 09, 2010 3:37 pm

Well I've worked my way through the set, including the extras-- and all in all I'm pleased... my one quibble is the figure-8's for the discs (and that fold-out accordion-style booklet, which came off flimsy looking).

Part three is simply dazzling-- in it lies the birth of the Kobayashi we all know and love... there's even a (brilliant) scene where Kaji is being misrepresented by a camp interpreter to the Soviets, and Kobayashi uses for the first time the conceit of fading down the fill lights for the sets and having the lead, while drifting into a rumination, appear under a single spot, the rest of the set thrown in darkness... highlighting his sense of isolation and punctuating his inability to communicate with the rest of the men in the room.

The sense of poetry, the searing melodrama, the stylish and incredibly psychological mise-en scene employed to communicate the sense that all of Kaji's highmindedness has finally come down to this-- part three is a masterwork, plain and simple.

And perhaps that's the way it should be: part one is quite good but with a mild sense of discomfort running beneath the unfoldings, as Kaji's highminded but well-meaning disposition, due to his utter tactlessness and complete lack of "schmoozing the enemy" to get what he wants out of life, leads to little else but discomfort and suffering all around. The tale and its narrative repercussions are the least fulfilling, in terms of poetry-- owing to Kaji's green eyed naivete. Part two is a transitional stage for both the narrative and for Kobayashi, as both men discover alternative and unconventional routes to the ends they want to achieve within their corresponding duties. As Kaji begins to toughen up, we see Kobayashi growing more engaged and inventive, we see his mind exploring new routes to achieve and represent the emotional and psychological frontiers his protagonist is pushing.. and having pushed (with painful consequence) on him.

Part three is a blazing masterpiece, as Kaji's suffering and corresponding fed-up--raging, in fact-- toughness can no longer be accounted for strictly with precise Documentary Realism... and thus we see for the first time-- rendered so expertly as though he'd been crafting scenes in this fashion for years already-- Kobayashi's classic style of abstracted mise en scene, rushing camera movements, canted tracking shots, pools of light that vanish and reappear, jump cuts, dialogue that suddenly fades out as a camera picks out into closeup a protagonist who isn't listening, blazing widescreen cinematography, and classic boiling Kobayashi melodrama.

Sits proudly on my mantle-- CC's release of the year, for sure.

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Tommaso
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#160 Post by Tommaso » Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:02 am

So, I finally managed to watch the third film last night, and can only agree with what Schreck said so eloquently in the post above. At first I thought that the film might make some of the mistakes of Pt.1 again, especially as I again found the music too intrusive in the first 30 minutes or so, but thankfully I was wrong. What I liked particularly here is that Kobayashi only seldom shows the violence on-screen, making its impact even stronger this way.
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I think especially of the two rapes occuring: in the first, we only see the woman thrown down from the Russian truck, and the second is only hinted at when we hear one character proudly talking about how he 'cleaned the girl off the Russian oil' or something to that effect. Sometimes such an indirect report is more disturbing, because it triggers your imagination and avoids the danger of overblown melodrama.
What I found interesting is that even though Kaji's belief in the Russians and the socialist state is disappointed, even in this third part the most repulsive acts are done by the Japanese to each other (the wrong translations of the interpreter are just one example). This must certainly have been strong stuff for a contemporary Japanese audience. By contrast, the Russians - as far as we see their actions on screen - still behave comparatively 'civilised'.

Otherwise I can only add that the 190 minutes of the film flew by very quickly, quite different from having to sit through Part 1, really. A visually and emotionally constantly captivating film, and indeed the best of the bunch, even if it still feels a little more 'mainstream' than "Seppuku" or "Kwaidan"; but these films now feel like a logical next step.

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zedz
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#161 Post by zedz » Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:06 pm

Ditto! And even though the first part was somewhat dramatically unsatisfying (which is, of course, partly the point, as the entire film describes the process of Kaji becoming a protagonist), you can't really miss Kobayashi's already impressive organisation of three dimensional space, particularly his dynamic distribution of figures along diagonals.

I understand the sense of Kobayashi 'finding his voice' over the course of the films, but that pattern matches the narrative of the films so well I'm not sure it isn't conscious, whether or not it's as well executed as it could be. By any standards this is a major achievement, for the filmmakers and for Criterion, and I'm so pleased to finally have been able to see this film after more than two decades of anticipation.

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Lemmy Caution
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#162 Post by Lemmy Caution » Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:55 pm

From this thread, I got the impression the first part was somewhat weak and the whole redeemed by the later stages.** So I just wanted to chime in with an appreciation of the first part.

The characters and conflicts are presented very economically and concisely. A number of conflicts are set up including between the Japanese military and the civilian administrators in occupied Manchuria, between the Chinese and Japanese, the POW and local peasant laborer Chinese, and between modern humanistic treatment for the workers versus older more brutal conduct.

It's a very easy film to get into, which is no small feat for a film taking place in occupied Manchurian iron mines. A number of the compositions are striking, especially the mass of workers walking to the mines, the prisoners surging forward for food, the women arriving through the fog as if in a dreamscape.

For those wary of starting a nearly 10 hour film, I just wanted to say how accessible, immediate and enjoyable Part One is.

** Admittedly I only skimmed through here at various times, not wanting to get too much info prior to seeing the film.

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dad1153
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#163 Post by dad1153 » Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:21 pm

Going to catch this at Anthology Film Archives in one sitting (all 9 hrs. 47 minutes!) either Saturday or Sunday starting at noon, still not sure which day. Wish me luck gentlemen (and lady!). :wink:

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Napier
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#164 Post by Napier » Fri Aug 06, 2010 9:25 pm

Good luck sir! I once lasted through 7 fillings at the dentist. And what you're doing is daunting. I salute you.

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FerdinandGriffon
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#165 Post by FerdinandGriffon » Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:58 pm

I stood watch while it was playing Film Forum, and the time absolutely rocketed by. Up there with A Brighter Summer Day as a personal theatre-going experience, and nothing at all to fear.

(But bring snacks!)

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dad1153
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#166 Post by dad1153 » Sat Aug 07, 2010 12:25 am

^^^ But I haven't eaten anything since Friday lunch (leaning toward going Saturday) so I don't get the bathroom urge in the middle of either Parts I or II. Is it a good idea to bring food to a movie that lasts long enough to lose a crucial line/moment and risk never seeing it again on the big screen?

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knives
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#167 Post by knives » Sat Aug 07, 2010 1:07 am

What you should do is eat a meal the night before so that you are reasonably full and can use the head before the movie. Bringing snacks is essential to your mission, but the sort that won't cause you to go to the bathroom (research indicates popcorn appropriately enough is the best here, though hard candies also work). Do not eat anything during the first three parts (you'll understand when you're watching) and pace yourself like molasses. You'll need that food to last at least four hours. If you do everything according to plan you will have a great time. :-$

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MyNameCriterionForum
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#168 Post by MyNameCriterionForum » Sat Aug 07, 2010 1:39 am

haha, all I can think about now is the scene where the starving workers rush the food cart - if that's not a cue for an intermission, I don't know what is

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domino harvey
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#169 Post by domino harvey » Sat Aug 07, 2010 1:44 am

Avoid anything with caffeine (this includes chocolate), it's a diuretic

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FerdinandGriffon
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#170 Post by FerdinandGriffon » Sat Aug 07, 2010 1:49 am

I've had good experiences with bagels.

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MyNameCriterionForum
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#171 Post by MyNameCriterionForum » Sat Aug 07, 2010 1:51 am

FerdinandGriffon wrote:I've had good experiences with bagels.
Well, me too, but I don't generally discuss it in public

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aox
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#172 Post by aox » Sat Aug 07, 2010 9:46 am

Bergman at least had the sense to instruct when you should eat during his film. This Kobayashi is an amateur.

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dad1153
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#173 Post by dad1153 » Sun Aug 08, 2010 4:58 pm

mteller wrote:I love Fires on the Plain and The Human Condition, I guess I'm fucked.
I hated (HATED!) "Fires on the Plain" but I loved (LOVED!) "The Human Condition." :P It's not perfect (what 10-hour movie is?) but seeing the whole thing in one day with 14 other people (from noon 'till 10:55PM Saturday with five 10 minute breaks in-between for bananas, LifeSavers candy, Pepsi/water and a Big Mac w/fries... no food allowed inside the Anthology Archive theater! :-s) Kabayashi's vision and execution of that vision is just breathtaking. Just the fact that I had to plan my weekend schedule and meal intake ahead of time for my "Human Condition" theatrical viewing means my expectations were different (and, to be honest, I walked in expecting the whole thing to add-up to an 'OK' movie at best) than someone with the luxury (or, in most cases here, only means) of watching each of the three parts at their own leisure on home video. The weekend before this I saw "Jeanne Dielman, 23 Quai du Commerce, 1080 Bruxelles" on Criterion DVD and, when my mind wondered around my apartment looking at my air conditioner and other junk around the TV, I regretted not forcing myself to wait until a theatrical screening. It would have trapped me in Akerman's vision without the distractions of a home movie environment, which is how I (and 95% of people will never) experienced "The Human Condition" trilogy. Guess I'm trying to say I'm a freak for watching the whole thing in one sitting, and my opinion reflect that freakiness. :-"

This is my first taste of Kobayashi (haven't had the moxi to blind-buy and/or rent either "Kwaidan" or "Harakiri") but just within "The Human Condition" you see growth of self-confidence and skill in Kobayashi's filmmaking skills that mirrors (in upward trajectory) the Kaji character's transformation from dove-eyed idealist to a still-idealist furious animal running on primal, survival instincts. 'This is our hero?' I wondered as Tatsuya Nakadai's lost and confused lad wondered through "Part I" pouting and looking like he soiled himself. All I could see was Billy Crudup and/or Jim Caviezel blandness, skill-wise. It's a testament to Nakadai's thesp skills and the epic Kobayashi builds around him (the beard really helped! :wink: ) that, toward the end, I'd forgotten about the Crudup/Caviezel comparisons and I was thinking early 90's Jason Patric or good Eric Bana (i.e. director's cut of "Troy"). One of my favorite TV series of all time is Kenneth Johnson's TV adaptation of "The Incredible Hulk" in which Bill Bixy portrays a version of Banner that is based/inspired by Jean Valjean from "Les Misérables." So, unlike many here (and elsewhere), I wasn't immediately put off or bothered by Kaji's saint-like wearing of his idealism on his sleeve even when anybody else with common sense would have backed down from taking stands faced with the struggles/enemies Kaji accumulates over the movie. You know, the same way Banner in the network TV version of "Hulk" should have had the common sense of getting away from gangsters or anything that would get him angry instead of diving head-first into trouble. In-between the movies/parts, when I was munching on my food outside the theater looking at the outside world through an open window, I had fun imagining the half-movie I had just watched but with Kaji 'Hulking out' at extreme moments of anger/injustice with the Hulk (i.e. Ferrigno in make-up) tossing the Kempeitai around, breaking-up the barracks and/or busting-up the Russians' vocal renditions of the "Tetris" theme song. It was a great little (!) weird movie I had running in my mind.

Against the common wisdom here I'll say "Part I" was far and away the best of the movie's three parts. I liked each part a little less as the movie went along but, since I liked "Part I" so much, "Part II" and "Part III" are still excellent movies because they're continuing and shaping the story/characters so perfectly set-up by the first installment. Heck, as a stand-alone movie "Part I" would rank as one of the best WWII movies I've ever seen (which I separate from 'action WWII' American movies, a different genre as far as I'm concerned) because, as preposterous and/or predictable as the plot got sometimes (having a Chinese being in charge of the electric fence being the primary culprit), it really sets-up Kaji as an idealist cypher character (almost Bressonian at moments) on which any audience can center their sympathy by default. The collusion of Japanese private industry with the military for the sake of the war effort (though it also benefited their mutual interests) was also a fascinating, rarely-explored (or seen by me) aspect of the WWII campaign. "Part I" also has an embarrassment of riches in supporting actors around Tatsuya (Sô Yamamura, Tôru Abe, Keiji Sada... too many!) not to mention is the only of the three parts where we get to really see Michiyo Aratama's Michiko (whose presence diminishes in on-screen time but not importance as the epic builds steam). Did Kubrick or anyone else around him ever mention the director being inspired by "Part II" of "The Human Condition" for the first half of "Full Metal Jacket"? Many aspects of this middle-portion of the trilogy (particularly the wimpy recruit) mirror "FMJ's" Parris Island scenes. It's also nice to have a little more comic relief in the middle section (not much, mind you) to bridge the humor-less before and after parts.

"Part III" brings the saga to a dramatic conclusion that, frankly, broke my heart.
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While I admire Kobayashi for resisting the temptation to go with the happy and predictable (not to mention totally unrealistic) reunion with Michiko that's hinted at throughout the movie's last 20 minutes or so, even I wanted Kaji and Michiko to have one last scene together. And I fucking hate Hollywood 'happy endings' with zeal! But, if any movie character in history deserved at least the courtesy of a dying-in-the-middle-of-nowhere "A.I."-type fantasy reunion with his loved one, it is freaking Kaji. Would it have hurt the narrative and final shot's impact that much to have his last thoughts on-screen being a reuse of "Part II's" tastefully nude scene (like Masaki did with the execution/battle scenes from "Part I/II") or a made-up 'welcome home' scene? Nope, in fact it would have made the end actually sting more to see/hear the lovers reunited one more time in the dying protagonist's imagination, then seeing his dead frozen body laying in the middle of nowhere.
The much-talked about dissatisfaction with socialism from Kobayashi to me seem like an afterthought or secondary track to the main thrust of the key scenes when Kaji is being interrogated by the Red Army
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(and mistranslated by the interpreter). Not only is it another (the 11,765,924th) torment for Kaji that the Japanese translator is obviously relying the wrong information to both parties. But the 2nd Russian army man that walks in on Kaji's interrogation was seen earlier defending an abused worker (was it Terada?) against his Japanese tormentor in Chinese. I know it was Chinese because I saw the Japanese subtitles on the right (and this Russian guy doesn't seem to understand Japanese when he sits for Kaji's interrogation), plus it makes sense within the movie that the few Russians that speak a foreign language would speak Chinese instead of Japanese. We also know from his earlier dealings with Chinese prisoners that Kaji speaks Chinese. So, as the interrogator enemy of Kaji is sealing his fate (in which the young Red army guy actually shows sympathy for Kaji), there is a Russian and a Japanese man who both speak fluent Chinese and are unaware of this common link that could facilitate the communication and sharing of ideas between an idealist Japanese man and a willing-to-listen sympathetic Russian military man. Had they talked and understood/liked each other maybe Kaji wouldn't have felt the need to escape the Russians, which means he would have probably lived, get released and eventually meet-up with Michiko.
That, to me, is the heart of the conclusion of "The Human Condition." There are good men separated by culture and language that share the same humanist ideals, yet their lack of knowledge or inability to seek out what they have in common that could faciliate a dialogue-of-ideals seals them (and the nations/culture/societies they represent) to perpetual lives of parallel understanding that rarely cross into true mutual understanding of each other's culture. Plus there's the whole 'Japanese-on-Japanese' abuse thing (driven home by the refugee women saying the Red army actually treated them better than their own army) and the events from "Part I" showing the problems men of ideals face even in their own countries, let alone dealing with different cultures. I can think of internal U.S. political parallels but I won't go there or it would never stop. Forget the mise-en-scène of Kobayashi dialing down the lights when Kaji goes into deep thought (which is still cool!), the cumulative power of that interrogation scene didn't hit me until I was out the door. Then it blew my mind.

Now a handful of flaws. As Kaji's character arc evolves the importance of those around him decreases (not to mention repeat the abuse cycle from "Part I" that is recycled again for the finale of "Part III") and Kobayashi doesn't cast actors as impressive/good as in "Part I," one of the main reasons I prefer the first installment. The obvious dubbing of Chinese voices over the all-Japanese cast during Chinese-speaking sequences put me off so I can only imagine how this was received in China (if it has ever been shown there at all). Didn't really care for the music (what little there is) or that, for dramatic purposes, Kobayashi deliberately starts repeating himself in the 2nd half of "Part III" by recreating montages/visual motiffs from "Part I" to hammer out how far down Kaji has fallen. The framing of the mountains of dirt always surrounding/towering over characters in "Part I" are gorgeous and put the anamorphic aspect ratio to good use. When they're replaced with equally-towering mountains of scrapped metal, lumber and/or garbage in "Part III" I was thinking 'I get it, I get it!'. At first I mistook many of Masaki's mise-en-scène tricks, particularly with sound (the battle scene of "Part II" having machine-gun fire not matching and characters screaming without us hearing what's being said being prime examples), as either technical or production flaws. Then afterwards (on the subway ride back home) I realized that, since he made a point to let us hear the exaggerated sound of electricity running through the rain-drenched fence in "Part I" (and when they test it to scare the prisoners... OUCH!!! :-&), not hearing the fence when something dramatic happens was meant to be a dramatic touch. Still, I could anticipate someone watching this for the first time unaware of Masaki's intent thinking they just heard one of the most badly-mixed soundtracks ever in a WWII movie. Lastly, "Part III" really drags and is populated by the most interchangeable and forgettable supporting actors (though I experienced a moment of geeky joy when Chishû Ryû shows-up as an old man) which are only there to show Kaji's resolve to go back to Michiko. I was like 'I really, REALLY fucking get it now!' by this point.

So, "The Human Condition"... great flick! And in September the same theater is showing Hans-Jürgen Syberberg's "Our Hitler" (1977). After living in Kobayashi's movie world for a full day a 429 min. German flick is going to be sooo cake! =;
Last edited by dad1153 on Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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knives
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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#174 Post by knives » Sun Aug 08, 2010 5:50 pm

Glad you liked it. You're a far braver man than I for completing this mountain. Seven hours of Satantango killed me, let alone nine of anything. Also if you're going to join the Kobayashi fan club now do not miss Samurai Rebellion which might actually be my favorite of his films (that I've seen), though Harakiri is the better film.

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Re: 480 The Human Condition

#175 Post by Jean-Luc Garbo » Sun Aug 08, 2010 6:07 pm

Definitely watch Kwaidan next! One of the more exquisite ghost stories out there. By the way, don't underestimate the Syberberg. It's only seven hours, but it's a very dense seven hours. I've seen it and it's a battle. (Part of the reason I love Parsifal more.) The literature on it which I found for my research explains its merits and deficits quite well.

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