30 M

Discuss DVDs and Blu-rays released by Criterion and the films on them. If it's got a spine number, it's in here. Threads may contain spoilers.
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swo17
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Re: 30 M

#76 Post by swo17 » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:40 pm

I thought it would be useful to compare the two editions here:

Unique to the Criterion
• Documentary on the physical history of M, from production to distribution to digital restoration
Conversation with Fritz Lang, a 50-minute film by William Friedkin
• Claude Chabrol’s M le Maudit, a short film inspired by M, plus an interview with Chabrol by Pierre-Henri Gibert about Lang’s filmmaking techniques
• Classroom audiotapes of editor Paul Falkenberg discussing M and its history, set to clips from the film
• Video interview with Harold Nebenzal, the son of M producer Seymour Nebenzal
• An essay by film critic Stanley Kauffmann, a 1963 interview with Lang, and contemporaneous newspaper articles

Unique to the MoC
• An audio commentary featuring film restoration expert Martin Koerber, filmmaker Peter Bogdanovich, historian Torsten Kaiser and excerpts from Bogdanovich’s 1965 audio interviews with Lang
Zum Beispiel Fritz Lang, a 1968 documentary with Fritz Lang discussing his career in German cinema
• Writing by Fritz Lang and historian Robert Fischer

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aox
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Re: 30 M

#77 Post by aox » Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:37 pm

Criterion wins that easily. The MOC is only attractive to me because of that extra audio commentary.

but until they include the 1951 remake and a digital copy: No Sale.

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david hare
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Re: 30 M

#78 Post by david hare » Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:42 pm

aox, as you must be aware the rights for the Losey M are tied up in a black hole by the Nebenzal estate. There's a mint 35mm fine grain gathering dust at the BFI which could be used for an HD master. but there has simply been no movemennt on the rights issues. It's going to cost somebody lots of money.
Meanwhile from the - admittedly - lousy boots of M I'm not so sure it's really as great a discovery as we all hoped it would be.

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aox
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Re: 30 M

#79 Post by aox » Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:47 pm

I was only kidding David.. sorry. I was hoping my wanting for a digital copy would be ridiculous enough to be a tip-off. :)

I have no interest into seeing the 1951 remake to be honest. It isn't even a mild curiosity. I will be picking up the Criterion M, barring any technical disaster.

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colinr0380
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Re: 30 M

#80 Post by colinr0380 » Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:10 pm

swo17 wrote: Unique to the MoC
• An audio commentary featuring film restoration expert Martin Koerber, filmmaker Peter Bogdanovich, historian Torsten Kaiser and excerpts from Bogdanovich’s 1965 audio interviews with Lang
Zum Beispiel Fritz Lang, a 1968 documentary with Fritz Lang discussing his career in German cinema
• Writing by Fritz Lang and historian Robert Fischer
Thanks for the comparison swo. I just wanted to note that both the audio commentary and For Example, Fritz Lang documentary were previously included on the Eureka (pre MoC series) DVD back in 2003 (the far right disc in this DVD Beaver comparison), so both of those (extremely worthwhile) extras have been ported forward from the previous release. Likely the written material is going to be where the new stuff can be found.

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david hare
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Re: 30 M

#81 Post by david hare » Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:39 pm

This is a bit of a quandry.

I already have the MoC on order and I particularly wanted the Koerber, but I had compeltely forgotten about the original Eureka M extras. (And I paid a small fortune for this in Paris at the long gone Bld des Italiens fnac.) The big attraction of the Crit is the Chabrol piece, not least. And apart from having to wait another three bloody months (sigh!!) I am tempted by the Crit.
In AUD price terms MoC and Crit preorders are pretty equal. But amazon uk gets here in five days on standard airmail.


Damn!!!!

Maybe I'll leave the order and then double dip if I have to. Madness...

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tajmahal
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Re: 30 M

#82 Post by tajmahal » Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:59 pm

david hare wrote:This is a bit of a quandry.

I already have the MoC on order and I particularly wanted the Koerber, but I had compeltely forgotten about the original Eureka M extras. (And I paid a small fortune for this in Paris at the long gone Bld des Italiens fnac.) The big attraction of the Crit is the Chabrol piece, not least. And apart from having to wait another three bloody months (sigh!!) I am tempted by the Crit.
In AUD price terms MoC and Crit preorders are pretty equal. But amazon uk gets here in five days on standard airmail.

Damn!!!!

Maybe I'll leave the order and then double dip if I have to. Madness...
If you have the Criterion 2-disc, and all the extras in that set, the MOC looks like like the better upgrade, as, apart from the English M, they offer some interesting extras, and a different booklet. The criterion dvd set and MOC Blu would offer a complete M experience. I might hold off, and wait for a comparison, just out of interest. Bloody nice dilemma to have, though. Happy days!

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Re: 30 M

#83 Post by Bleddyn Williams » Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:05 pm

david hare wrote:This is a bit of a quandry.

I already have the MoC on order and I particularly wanted the Koerber, but I had compeltely forgotten about the original Eureka M extras. (And I paid a small fortune for this in Paris at the long gone Bld des Italiens fnac.) The big attraction of the Crit is the Chabrol piece, not least. And apart from having to wait another three bloody months (sigh!!) I am tempted by the Crit.
In AUD price terms MoC and Crit preorders are pretty equal. But amazon uk gets here in five days on standard airmail.
Damn!!!!

Maybe I'll leave the order and then double dip if I have to. Madness...
LOL! I had no idea that the MoC commentary was on the old Eureka. Today I ordered the MoC and posted my old Eureka up on Amazon Marketplace! I already have the Criterion 2-discer, so I considered the Eureka totally redundant. Oh well, I'll let it go anyway. How many copies of one film can a man have, anyway? (Don't answer that!)

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Amazing Goose
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Re: 30 M

#84 Post by Amazing Goose » Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:16 am

can anyone explain the "long lost english version of M"? is it simply a dubbed audio track or it is a complete remake? more importantly, is it any good?

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swo17
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Re: 30 M

#85 Post by swo17 » Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:15 am

Haven't seen it, but MoC describes it like so:
The original 1932 British release version of M, presented in its entirety, recently rediscovered after 70 years, featuring different actors, alternate takes and Peter Lorre’s first performance in English

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colinr0380
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Re: 30 M

#86 Post by colinr0380 » Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:24 am

It sounds likely to be similar to the French version of M that was excerpted in the Physical History documentary on the Criterion disc, which had eerie 'not quite exact' replications of scenes (gestures are copied but with some of the meaning behind the action lost in the copying) in order to include French speaking actors and inserts of text (for example the ball being bounced against the missing child poster), along with Lorre impressively re-peforming his final scene in French on a copy of the original set. I wonder if the English language version will also have a similar tacked on happy ending!

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aox
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Re: 30 M

#87 Post by aox » Sat Feb 13, 2010 11:22 am

Happy ending? Turns out all of the kids are alive and he was teaching them etiquette?

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colinr0380
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Re: 30 M

#88 Post by colinr0380 » Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:34 pm

Spoiler!:

Not quite that happy! The French version returns the film full circle in a call back to the opening shot of Lang's film where a group of children singing about death and playing an elimination game are shouted at by one of their mothers not to sing that song. Instead of ending with the haunting shot of the unending trauma of the mothers, distraught even now that the killer has been 'brought to (various kinds of) justice', the French version instead returns to children playing inclusively and singing joyful songs watched by smiling parents, rather than the harassed and grumpy one at the start. Plus, since there is both a mother and father watching from a window in this added sequence, there also seems an attempt to return to an intact family unit compared to the fractured families showing only labouring mothers that Lang's film contains.

In other words the French version leaves you with the feeling that the bad guy has been caught and everything can go back to normal, as well as emphasising the importance of the rule of law over mob justice. Lang's original film doesn't provide that comforting assurance.

That is one of the reasons why it will be interesting to see how this English language version tackles the material and whether it changes any of it, in addition to being able to see the first English language Lorre performance.

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manicsounds
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Re: 30 M

#90 Post by manicsounds » Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:53 am

Region 0 NTSC

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4LOM
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Re: 30 M

#91 Post by 4LOM » Tue Mar 09, 2010 8:35 am

I have confirmation, that Criterion worked on the HD master again. They made a new color correction of some scenes. The whole beginning and some later scenes (e.g. during the hunt for Hans Beckert) of the movie are to bright on the master, used for the Criterion DVD and Masters of Cinema Blu-ray disc. The new Criterion Blu-ray will correct this.

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perkizitore
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Re: 30 M

#92 Post by perkizitore » Tue Mar 09, 2010 5:40 pm

If this is true, i am glad i didn't buy the MoC disc and waited for the Criterion one!

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TMDaines
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Re: 30 M

#93 Post by TMDaines » Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:31 am

That's interesting because I have yet to see anyone at all complain about the brightness of the MoC M Blu on any forum or in any review, and I thought it looked great also. So either (a) MoC also corrected this, (b) its either totally subjective whether something is off or (c) it's another example of Criterion being hands-on and MoC hands-off.

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aox
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Re: 30 M

#94 Post by aox » Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:33 am

TMDaines wrote: it's another example of Criterion being hands-on
Criterion can put their hands on me too if it means a better viewing experience.

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TMDaines
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Re: 30 M

#95 Post by TMDaines » Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:38 am

aox wrote:
TMDaines wrote: it's another example of Criterion being hands-on
Criterion can put their hands on me too if it means a better viewing experience.
It's subjective though. Some preferred the Criterion Vampyr and some preferred the MoC Vampyr. Digital manipulation can often take a lot away from a viewing experience.

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triodelover
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Re: 30 M

#96 Post by triodelover » Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:01 am

4LOM wrote:I have confirmation, that Criterion worked on the HD master again. They made a new color correction of some scenes. The whole beginning and some later scenes (e.g. during the hunt for Hans Beckert) of the movie are to bright on the master, used for the Criterion DVD and Masters of Cinema Blu-ray disc. The new Criterion Blu-ray will correct this.
Or maybe this is just preparing us for a contrast-boosted disc, something Criterion has been known to do in the past. You must admit it sounds a bit odd. The MoC disc has gotten rave reviews with no mention of a "brightness" issue. Now you have (and, yes, I realize you host a review site) anonymous confirmation that the MoC is "wrong" and the upcoming Criterion will "correct" that. Marketing hype?
TMDaines wrote:That's interesting because I have yet to see anyone at all complain about the brightness of the MoC M Blu on any forum or in any review, and I thought it looked great also. So either (a) MoC also corrected this, (b) its either totally subjective whether something is off or (c) it's another example of Criterion being hands-on and MoC hands-off.
I have to agree with you. The entire sequence in the office building was stunning and revealed detail I had not seen in the Criterion reissue, which I also own. it seems a lot of conclusions are being drawn from internet rumors or viewing screen caps on individual monitors without actually seeing the film in question in motion. One might say that as the technology improves, so does the dissatisfaction with the viewing experience of a certain segment of the population. Funny thing is, they seem to be enjoying it. I am reminded of a certain type of "audiophile" from the '70s and '80s.

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4LOM
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Re: 30 M

#97 Post by 4LOM » Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:54 pm

triodelover wrote:
4LOM wrote:I have confirmation, that Criterion worked on the HD master again. They made a new color correction of some scenes. The whole beginning and some later scenes (e.g. during the hunt for Hans Beckert) of the movie are to bright on the master, used for the Criterion DVD and Masters of Cinema Blu-ray disc. The new Criterion Blu-ray will correct this.
Or maybe this is just preparing us for a contrast-boosted disc, something Criterion has been known to do in the past. You must admit it sounds a bit odd. The MoC disc has gotten rave reviews with no mention of a "brightness" issue. Now you have (and, yes, I realize you host a review site) anonymous confirmation that the MoC is "wrong" and the upcoming Criterion will "correct" that. Marketing hype?
TMDaines wrote:That's interesting because I have yet to see anyone at all complain about the brightness of the MoC M Blu on any forum or in any review, and I thought it looked great also. So either (a) MoC also corrected this, (b) its either totally subjective whether something is off or (c) it's another example of Criterion being hands-on and MoC hands-off.
I have to agree with you. The entire sequence in the office building was stunning and revealed detail I had not seen in the Criterion reissue, which I also own. it seems a lot of conclusions are being drawn from internet rumors or viewing screen caps on individual monitors without actually seeing the film in question in motion. One might say that as the technology improves, so does the dissatisfaction with the viewing experience of a certain segment of the population. Funny thing is, they seem to be enjoying it. I am reminded of a certain type of "audiophile" from the '70s and '80s.
The information came from Torsten Kaiser from TLEFilms (who you can hear on one of the two commentaries of the MoC Blu-ray). He told me on the phone about this and wrote a post in the forum of German DVD website Cinefacts. TLEFilms worked on "M" some years ago for the Eureka DVD. They wanted to do the master in HD but it was done in SD (PAL) only despite their wishes. Plan was, that Criterion wanted to license the HD master from TLEFilms / Eureka for their DVD back in 2003, but when it was only done in SD, Criterion made their own HD master. Criterion asked TLEFilms about doing the color correction on their HD master for their upcoming Blu-ray. In January 2010 TLEFilms and Criterion together worked on this issue. The MoC Blu-ray does not feature this color correction.

Here you can find a comparison of the Criterion DVD and the SD master from TLEFilms for Eureka. There's definitely a difference regarding the brightness.

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gyorgys
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Re: 30 M

#98 Post by gyorgys » Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:51 pm

4LOM wrote: The information came from Torsten Kaiser from TLEFilms (who you can hear on one of the two commentaries of the MoC Blu-ray). He told me on the phone about this and wrote a post in the forum of German DVD website Cinefacts. TLEFilms worked on "M" some years ago for the Eureka DVD. They wanted to do the master in HD but it was done in SD (PAL) only despite their wishes. Plan was, that Criterion wanted to license the HD master from TLEFilms / Eureka for their DVD back in 2003, but when it was only done in SD, Criterion made their own HD master. Criterion asked TLEFilms about doing the color correction on their HD master for their upcoming Blu-ray. In January 2010 TLEFilms and Criterion together worked on this issue. The MoC Blu-ray does not feature this color correction.

Here you can find a comparison of the Criterion DVD and the SD master from TLEFilms for Eureka. There's definitely a difference regarding the brightness.
Thus, as the addendum states in the link you posted, the MoC/Eureka BD of "M" is not in HD natively, but upconverted from a SD PAL source?
Addendum: Die britische Version von "M" ist nicht in High Definition, jedenfalls nicht nativ. Es handelt sich offensichtlich um ein Upconvert (was erst auf der Disc zugegeben wird, auf dem Cover steht 1080p) eines alten Tapemasters in PAL.

Zot!
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Re: 30 M

#99 Post by Zot! » Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:03 pm

My Duetsche is a bit rough, but he must be talking about the bonus supplement on the BD of the MOC M, which is an alternate "British" cut of the film. The actual feature is definitely a brand new HD transfer and not an uprez.

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zedz
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Re: 30 M

#100 Post by zedz » Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:20 pm

From the above, I've (maybe falsely) assumed that MoC used Criterion's existing HD transfer, but that Criterion have subsequently done some colour correction to it in preparation for their own Blu release. The only difference would thus be whatever small tweaks have just been added, but the basic transfer will be the same. Should make for an interesting comparison, and may amount to nothing but a 'taste' call for purchasers.

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