30 M
- swo17
- Bloodthirsty Butcher
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
- Location: SLC, UT
Re: 30 M
I thought it would be useful to compare the two editions here:
Unique to the Criterion
• Documentary on the physical history of M, from production to distribution to digital restoration
• Conversation with Fritz Lang, a 50-minute film by William Friedkin
• Claude Chabrol’s M le Maudit, a short film inspired by M, plus an interview with Chabrol by Pierre-Henri Gibert about Lang’s filmmaking techniques
• Classroom audiotapes of editor Paul Falkenberg discussing M and its history, set to clips from the film
• Video interview with Harold Nebenzal, the son of M producer Seymour Nebenzal
• An essay by film critic Stanley Kauffmann, a 1963 interview with Lang, and contemporaneous newspaper articles
Unique to the MoC
• An audio commentary featuring film restoration expert Martin Koerber, filmmaker Peter Bogdanovich, historian Torsten Kaiser and excerpts from Bogdanovich’s 1965 audio interviews with Lang
• Zum Beispiel Fritz Lang, a 1968 documentary with Fritz Lang discussing his career in German cinema
• Writing by Fritz Lang and historian Robert Fischer
Unique to the Criterion
• Documentary on the physical history of M, from production to distribution to digital restoration
• Conversation with Fritz Lang, a 50-minute film by William Friedkin
• Claude Chabrol’s M le Maudit, a short film inspired by M, plus an interview with Chabrol by Pierre-Henri Gibert about Lang’s filmmaking techniques
• Classroom audiotapes of editor Paul Falkenberg discussing M and its history, set to clips from the film
• Video interview with Harold Nebenzal, the son of M producer Seymour Nebenzal
• An essay by film critic Stanley Kauffmann, a 1963 interview with Lang, and contemporaneous newspaper articles
Unique to the MoC
• An audio commentary featuring film restoration expert Martin Koerber, filmmaker Peter Bogdanovich, historian Torsten Kaiser and excerpts from Bogdanovich’s 1965 audio interviews with Lang
• Zum Beispiel Fritz Lang, a 1968 documentary with Fritz Lang discussing his career in German cinema
• Writing by Fritz Lang and historian Robert Fischer
- aox
- Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:02 pm
- Location: nYc
Re: 30 M
I was only kidding David.. sorry. I was hoping my wanting for a digital copy would be ridiculous enough to be a tip-off.
I have no interest into seeing the 1951 remake to be honest. It isn't even a mild curiosity. I will be picking up the Criterion M, barring any technical disaster.
I have no interest into seeing the 1951 remake to be honest. It isn't even a mild curiosity. I will be picking up the Criterion M, barring any technical disaster.
- colinr0380
- Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:30 pm
- Location: Chapel-en-le-Frith, Derbyshire, UK
Re: 30 M
Thanks for the comparison swo. I just wanted to note that both the audio commentary and For Example, Fritz Lang documentary were previously included on the Eureka (pre MoC series) DVD back in 2003 (the far right disc in this DVD Beaver comparison), so both of those (extremely worthwhile) extras have been ported forward from the previous release. Likely the written material is going to be where the new stuff can be found.swo17 wrote: Unique to the MoC
• An audio commentary featuring film restoration expert Martin Koerber, filmmaker Peter Bogdanovich, historian Torsten Kaiser and excerpts from Bogdanovich’s 1965 audio interviews with Lang
• Zum Beispiel Fritz Lang, a 1968 documentary with Fritz Lang discussing his career in German cinema
• Writing by Fritz Lang and historian Robert Fischer
- tajmahal
- Joined: Mon May 11, 2009 11:10 pm
Re: 30 M
If you have the Criterion 2-disc, and all the extras in that set, the MOC looks like like the better upgrade, as, apart from the English M, they offer some interesting extras, and a different booklet. The criterion dvd set and MOC Blu would offer a complete M experience. I might hold off, and wait for a comparison, just out of interest. Bloody nice dilemma to have, though. Happy days!david hare wrote:This is a bit of a quandry.
I already have the MoC on order and I particularly wanted the Koerber, but I had compeltely forgotten about the original Eureka M extras. (And I paid a small fortune for this in Paris at the long gone Bld des Italiens fnac.) The big attraction of the Crit is the Chabrol piece, not least. And apart from having to wait another three bloody months (sigh!!) I am tempted by the Crit.
In AUD price terms MoC and Crit preorders are pretty equal. But amazon uk gets here in five days on standard airmail.
Damn!!!!
Maybe I'll leave the order and then double dip if I have to. Madness...
-
- Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 2:33 pm
- Location: Billerica MA USA
Re: 30 M
LOL! I had no idea that the MoC commentary was on the old Eureka. Today I ordered the MoC and posted my old Eureka up on Amazon Marketplace! I already have the Criterion 2-discer, so I considered the Eureka totally redundant. Oh well, I'll let it go anyway. How many copies of one film can a man have, anyway? (Don't answer that!)david hare wrote:This is a bit of a quandry.
I already have the MoC on order and I particularly wanted the Koerber, but I had compeltely forgotten about the original Eureka M extras. (And I paid a small fortune for this in Paris at the long gone Bld des Italiens fnac.) The big attraction of the Crit is the Chabrol piece, not least. And apart from having to wait another three bloody months (sigh!!) I am tempted by the Crit.
In AUD price terms MoC and Crit preorders are pretty equal. But amazon uk gets here in five days on standard airmail.
Damn!!!!
Maybe I'll leave the order and then double dip if I have to. Madness...
- Amazing Goose
- Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:31 pm
- Location: tamu
Re: 30 M
can anyone explain the "long lost english version of M"? is it simply a dubbed audio track or it is a complete remake? more importantly, is it any good?
- swo17
- Bloodthirsty Butcher
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
- Location: SLC, UT
Re: 30 M
Haven't seen it, but MoC describes it like so:
The original 1932 British release version of M, presented in its entirety, recently rediscovered after 70 years, featuring different actors, alternate takes and Peter Lorre’s first performance in English
- colinr0380
- Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:30 pm
- Location: Chapel-en-le-Frith, Derbyshire, UK
Re: 30 M
It sounds likely to be similar to the French version of M that was excerpted in the Physical History documentary on the Criterion disc, which had eerie 'not quite exact' replications of scenes (gestures are copied but with some of the meaning behind the action lost in the copying) in order to include French speaking actors and inserts of text (for example the ball being bounced against the missing child poster), along with Lorre impressively re-peforming his final scene in French on a copy of the original set. I wonder if the English language version will also have a similar tacked on happy ending!
- colinr0380
- Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:30 pm
- Location: Chapel-en-le-Frith, Derbyshire, UK
Re: 30 M
Spoiler!:
Not quite that happy! The French version returns the film full circle in a call back to the opening shot of Lang's film where a group of children singing about death and playing an elimination game are shouted at by one of their mothers not to sing that song. Instead of ending with the haunting shot of the unending trauma of the mothers, distraught even now that the killer has been 'brought to (various kinds of) justice', the French version instead returns to children playing inclusively and singing joyful songs watched by smiling parents, rather than the harassed and grumpy one at the start. Plus, since there is both a mother and father watching from a window in this added sequence, there also seems an attempt to return to an intact family unit compared to the fractured families showing only labouring mothers that Lang's film contains.
In other words the French version leaves you with the feeling that the bad guy has been caught and everything can go back to normal, as well as emphasising the importance of the rule of law over mob justice. Lang's original film doesn't provide that comforting assurance.
That is one of the reasons why it will be interesting to see how this English language version tackles the material and whether it changes any of it, in addition to being able to see the first English language Lorre performance.
Not quite that happy! The French version returns the film full circle in a call back to the opening shot of Lang's film where a group of children singing about death and playing an elimination game are shouted at by one of their mothers not to sing that song. Instead of ending with the haunting shot of the unending trauma of the mothers, distraught even now that the killer has been 'brought to (various kinds of) justice', the French version instead returns to children playing inclusively and singing joyful songs watched by smiling parents, rather than the harassed and grumpy one at the start. Plus, since there is both a mother and father watching from a window in this added sequence, there also seems an attempt to return to an intact family unit compared to the fractured families showing only labouring mothers that Lang's film contains.
In other words the French version leaves you with the feeling that the bad guy has been caught and everything can go back to normal, as well as emphasising the importance of the rule of law over mob justice. Lang's original film doesn't provide that comforting assurance.
That is one of the reasons why it will be interesting to see how this English language version tackles the material and whether it changes any of it, in addition to being able to see the first English language Lorre performance.
- 4LOM
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:10 pm
- Location: Rheda-Wiedenbrueck / Germany
- Contact:
Re: 30 M
I have confirmation, that Criterion worked on the HD master again. They made a new color correction of some scenes. The whole beginning and some later scenes (e.g. during the hunt for Hans Beckert) of the movie are to bright on the master, used for the Criterion DVD and Masters of Cinema Blu-ray disc. The new Criterion Blu-ray will correct this.
- perkizitore
- Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:29 pm
- Location: OOP is the only answer
Re: 30 M
If this is true, i am glad i didn't buy the MoC disc and waited for the Criterion one!
- TMDaines
- Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:01 pm
- Location: Stretford, Manchester
Re: 30 M
That's interesting because I have yet to see anyone at all complain about the brightness of the MoC M Blu on any forum or in any review, and I thought it looked great also. So either (a) MoC also corrected this, (b) its either totally subjective whether something is off or (c) it's another example of Criterion being hands-on and MoC hands-off.
- TMDaines
- Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:01 pm
- Location: Stretford, Manchester
Re: 30 M
It's subjective though. Some preferred the Criterion Vampyr and some preferred the MoC Vampyr. Digital manipulation can often take a lot away from a viewing experience.aox wrote:Criterion can put their hands on me too if it means a better viewing experience.TMDaines wrote: it's another example of Criterion being hands-on
- triodelover
- Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 2:11 pm
- Location: The hills of East Tennessee
Re: 30 M
Or maybe this is just preparing us for a contrast-boosted disc, something Criterion has been known to do in the past. You must admit it sounds a bit odd. The MoC disc has gotten rave reviews with no mention of a "brightness" issue. Now you have (and, yes, I realize you host a review site) anonymous confirmation that the MoC is "wrong" and the upcoming Criterion will "correct" that. Marketing hype?4LOM wrote:I have confirmation, that Criterion worked on the HD master again. They made a new color correction of some scenes. The whole beginning and some later scenes (e.g. during the hunt for Hans Beckert) of the movie are to bright on the master, used for the Criterion DVD and Masters of Cinema Blu-ray disc. The new Criterion Blu-ray will correct this.
I have to agree with you. The entire sequence in the office building was stunning and revealed detail I had not seen in the Criterion reissue, which I also own. it seems a lot of conclusions are being drawn from internet rumors or viewing screen caps on individual monitors without actually seeing the film in question in motion. One might say that as the technology improves, so does the dissatisfaction with the viewing experience of a certain segment of the population. Funny thing is, they seem to be enjoying it. I am reminded of a certain type of "audiophile" from the '70s and '80s.TMDaines wrote:That's interesting because I have yet to see anyone at all complain about the brightness of the MoC M Blu on any forum or in any review, and I thought it looked great also. So either (a) MoC also corrected this, (b) its either totally subjective whether something is off or (c) it's another example of Criterion being hands-on and MoC hands-off.
- 4LOM
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:10 pm
- Location: Rheda-Wiedenbrueck / Germany
- Contact:
Re: 30 M
The information came from Torsten Kaiser from TLEFilms (who you can hear on one of the two commentaries of the MoC Blu-ray). He told me on the phone about this and wrote a post in the forum of German DVD website Cinefacts. TLEFilms worked on "M" some years ago for the Eureka DVD. They wanted to do the master in HD but it was done in SD (PAL) only despite their wishes. Plan was, that Criterion wanted to license the HD master from TLEFilms / Eureka for their DVD back in 2003, but when it was only done in SD, Criterion made their own HD master. Criterion asked TLEFilms about doing the color correction on their HD master for their upcoming Blu-ray. In January 2010 TLEFilms and Criterion together worked on this issue. The MoC Blu-ray does not feature this color correction.triodelover wrote:Or maybe this is just preparing us for a contrast-boosted disc, something Criterion has been known to do in the past. You must admit it sounds a bit odd. The MoC disc has gotten rave reviews with no mention of a "brightness" issue. Now you have (and, yes, I realize you host a review site) anonymous confirmation that the MoC is "wrong" and the upcoming Criterion will "correct" that. Marketing hype?4LOM wrote:I have confirmation, that Criterion worked on the HD master again. They made a new color correction of some scenes. The whole beginning and some later scenes (e.g. during the hunt for Hans Beckert) of the movie are to bright on the master, used for the Criterion DVD and Masters of Cinema Blu-ray disc. The new Criterion Blu-ray will correct this.
I have to agree with you. The entire sequence in the office building was stunning and revealed detail I had not seen in the Criterion reissue, which I also own. it seems a lot of conclusions are being drawn from internet rumors or viewing screen caps on individual monitors without actually seeing the film in question in motion. One might say that as the technology improves, so does the dissatisfaction with the viewing experience of a certain segment of the population. Funny thing is, they seem to be enjoying it. I am reminded of a certain type of "audiophile" from the '70s and '80s.TMDaines wrote:That's interesting because I have yet to see anyone at all complain about the brightness of the MoC M Blu on any forum or in any review, and I thought it looked great also. So either (a) MoC also corrected this, (b) its either totally subjective whether something is off or (c) it's another example of Criterion being hands-on and MoC hands-off.
Here you can find a comparison of the Criterion DVD and the SD master from TLEFilms for Eureka. There's definitely a difference regarding the brightness.
- gyorgys
- Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:11 pm
- Location: Europe
Re: 30 M
Thus, as the addendum states in the link you posted, the MoC/Eureka BD of "M" is not in HD natively, but upconverted from a SD PAL source?4LOM wrote: The information came from Torsten Kaiser from TLEFilms (who you can hear on one of the two commentaries of the MoC Blu-ray). He told me on the phone about this and wrote a post in the forum of German DVD website Cinefacts. TLEFilms worked on "M" some years ago for the Eureka DVD. They wanted to do the master in HD but it was done in SD (PAL) only despite their wishes. Plan was, that Criterion wanted to license the HD master from TLEFilms / Eureka for their DVD back in 2003, but when it was only done in SD, Criterion made their own HD master. Criterion asked TLEFilms about doing the color correction on their HD master for their upcoming Blu-ray. In January 2010 TLEFilms and Criterion together worked on this issue. The MoC Blu-ray does not feature this color correction.
Here you can find a comparison of the Criterion DVD and the SD master from TLEFilms for Eureka. There's definitely a difference regarding the brightness.
Addendum: Die britische Version von "M" ist nicht in High Definition, jedenfalls nicht nativ. Es handelt sich offensichtlich um ein Upconvert (was erst auf der Disc zugegeben wird, auf dem Cover steht 1080p) eines alten Tapemasters in PAL.
- zedz
- Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 7:24 pm
Re: 30 M
From the above, I've (maybe falsely) assumed that MoC used Criterion's existing HD transfer, but that Criterion have subsequently done some colour correction to it in preparation for their own Blu release. The only difference would thus be whatever small tweaks have just been added, but the basic transfer will be the same. Should make for an interesting comparison, and may amount to nothing but a 'taste' call for purchasers.
- dr. calamari
- Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:55 pm
- Location: palookaville
Re: 30 M
I just re-watched M last night, and I really don't see much room for improvement as far as the image goes...it's still much better than the original Criterion release, and as far as I'm concerned more contrast or brightness wouldn't affect the viewing experience.
What I would have liked to see, in addition to the original film, is the 1953 version starring David Wayne as Beckert. I've never seen it and know of no DVD version currently available. if Criterion could have found a copy and secured the rights it would have been a very interesting supplement to an already excellent disc.
What I would have liked to see, in addition to the original film, is the 1953 version starring David Wayne as Beckert. I've never seen it and know of no DVD version currently available. if Criterion could have found a copy and secured the rights it would have been a very interesting supplement to an already excellent disc.
-
- Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:39 pm
- Location: Lebanon, PA
Re: 30 M
Well, not legally, at any rate. But I have seen it offered...I've never seen it and know of no DVD version currently available.
But the Lang is so perfect & I've heard such indifferent responses to the remake I've never had any real urge to check it out.