856-859 The Before Trilogy

Discuss releases by Criterion and the films on them. Threads may contain spoilers!
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bdsweeney
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Re: Before Midnight (Richard Linklater, 2013)

#26 Post by bdsweeney » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:55 am

From that trailer, you get the feeling they've opened it up a little more than previously to include the outside world more.

Maybe my memory fails me, but I remember the last two being pretty insular (especially 'Before Sunset').

Somehow, this disappoints a little.

But hey, it's only a trailer.

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Gregory
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Re: Before Midnight (Richard Linklater, 2013)

#27 Post by Gregory » Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:38 am

bdsweeney wrote:From that trailer, you get the feeling they've opened it up a little more than previously to include the outside world more.
Maybe my memory fails me, but I remember the last two being pretty insular (especially 'Before Sunset').
Somehow, this disappoints a little.
But hey, it's only a trailer.
It makes sense to me if that's the case, as young lovers live in an extremely different type of world. The first two were about them falling in love and being separated, of course, while this one is about them living as a couple and a family, which tends to also involve other people as well. The latter seems like the more challenging subject to write well, and I can't wait to see what Linklater and co. have done with it.

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GaryC
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Re: Before Midnight (Richard Linklater, 2013)

#28 Post by GaryC » Tue Apr 09, 2013 4:39 am

j99 wrote:Glad to see the film getting good reviews as I enjoyed the previous two. I didn't realise there was going
to be a third installment so this comes as a pleasant surprise. Is there a release date for the UK yet?
Currently set for 21 June.

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jbeall
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Re: Before Midnight (Richard Linklater, 2013)

#29 Post by jbeall » Sun May 05, 2013 9:14 am



Zot!
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Re: Before Midnight (Richard Linklater, 2013)

#31 Post by Zot! » Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:43 pm

Good movie. I think they handled this one well, and If you enjoyed the simple pleasures of the first two, this should also please you.
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I have no idea what they were thinking with that communal dinner table scene however. It introduced a bunch of stereotypical "stock" characters, none of which added anything, and reeked of the sacharine sentiment from some kind of Olive Garden commercial/Diane Lane in Tuscany bullshit. Everything else was pretty damn good though, except for Ethan Hawkes hair. Highlights/frosted-tips, seriously?

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warren oates
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Re: Before Midnight (Richard Linklater, 2013)

#32 Post by warren oates » Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:18 pm

You'll have to be more specific about what's so "sacahrine" or "stock" in the table scene as opposed to the rest of it.

For me the meal scene has a number of purposes. In addition to continuing to widen the world of the story and to fill in a little more backstory (on the details of their summer holiday) I think it's primarily to establish Jesse and Celine on a continuum of couples -- older and younger -- and to reinforce by contrast the mystery that is any long-term romantic coupling. We see how all of these very different individuals negotiate important details of their lives with their significant others, as well as how much they all have in common.

These films are about talking. About intelligent, creative people grappling with their lives by telling stories and sharing ideas in conversation. I'm not lucky enough to spend all of my time with friends like that, but I do recognize the truth of such an experience. I've been at similar meals in less exotic locales. And I've seen plenty of conversations of this sort in good plays, like Chekov's and in films that owe a debt to his work, like those by Bergman, Woody Allen and especially Eric Rohmer.

I liked the film a lot too. I think, as it is often with real people who age well, this installment is funnier and more authentic than the first two without being any less romantic.

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Re: Before Midnight (Richard Linklater, 2013)

#33 Post by Zot! » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:27 pm

warren oates wrote: I think it's primarily to establish Jesse and Celine on a continuum of couples -- older and younger -- and to reinforce by contrast the mystery that is any long-term romantic coupling. We see how all of these very different individuals negotiate important details of their lives with their significant others, as well as how much they all have in common.
Ugh...exactly. Yes in the most pat, obvious of ways it does just this, whereas the rest of these films' avoid obvious cliches, and their authentic simplicity are what give them their power. For me it was painfully hackneyed.

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warren oates
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Re: Before Midnight (Richard Linklater, 2013)

#34 Post by warren oates » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:43 pm

Zot! wrote:
warren oates wrote: I think it's primarily to establish Jesse and Celine on a continuum of couples -- older and younger -- and to reinforce by contrast the mystery that is any long-term romantic coupling. We see how all of these very different individuals negotiate important details of their lives with their significant others, as well as how much they all have in common.
Ugh...exactly. Yes in the most pat, obvious of ways it does just this, whereas the rest of these films' avoid obvious cliches, and their authentic simplicity are what give them their power. For me it was painfully hackneyed.
I hear what you're saying. But, short of specific examples, it sounds pretty much like what you've already said. Without any details like "When so-and-so said blah, blah, blah," it's hard to see how you're rating the table scene as considerably more "hackneyed" than the rest of the film, including other scenes that don't have only Celine and Jesse in them. Say, for example, the scene where Jesse discusses his various published novels and future book ideas.

If you're objecting to the contrivance or the artificiality of the entire scene itself, an answer to that is, at least partly, built into the very dramatics of the film. This whole group has spent time vacationing for a number of weeks in one spot -- sometimes together, sometimes apart -- and sharing some meals before -- but not usually all of them together all at once. They know of each other, but they don't necessarily all know each other's life stories. The sharing of which is explicitly stated as being one of the goals of that scene by the patriarch/host whose property they are all staying on.

I've certainly been to dinners like this too, where the deliberate awkwardness of somewhat formally introducing oneself is built into the purpose of the meal.

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ianthemovie
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Re: Before Midnight (Richard Linklater, 2013)

#35 Post by ianthemovie » Sat Jun 08, 2013 3:27 pm

My experience of the dinner scene was similar to yours, warren. It struck me as genuine rather than contrived, and the philosophical nature of the discussion, with each person offering a different opinion about love, relationships, etc., seemed to fit well with the philosophical tone of the series in general.

I'm having some real trouble with the end of the film, though, and would appreciate hearing from others.
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I should say that, like just about everyone else, I love Sunrise and especially Sunset--they are among my favorite films of the last twenty years or so--and I wanted to like Midnight very, very badly. Basically everything up until the hotel scene is fantastic: the dinner party meditations on love, Celine and Jesse grappling with the realities of a long-term relationship, aging, thoughts of death, etc. But I found the last act of the film (the fight at the hotel and the final exchange at the cafe) very disappointing. That argument struck me as incredibly one-note and shrill. Yes, couples really do argue like this. But it felt like the whole worldview of the film(s) shrank during that scene. It went on for far too long and began to feel belabored, with both Celine and Jesse going over the same ground over and over again. Then (rather abruptly, I thought) Celine blurts out "I don't think I love you anymore," after which point the film spends five minutes slapping together a very rushed and insincere-feeling reconciliation. They have another of their cute-banter exchanges and decide to have make-up sex. The end.

Seriously? This felt so crushingly pat to me. I suppose we don't know for sure whether their relationship will last, but compared to the achingly open-ended conclusions of the previous two films (the final scene of Sunset stops my heart every time I watch it) this left me with nothing to chew over or think about. The writing here just did not seem up to standard: I wish that that argument had been subtler, more carefully modulated and had hit a wider variety of notes, and I wish that final conversation had been richer. I only saw this last night so I'm still trying to process it, but my initial response was one of feeling let down. I had gone in thinking this could be my favorite film of the year to thinking it will probably make my top 10, but is not even a solid four-star film.

Would love to hear others weigh in on this. Please convince me that I'm wrong and that this is actually the masterpiece I wanted it to be.

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warren oates
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Re: Before Midnight (Richard Linklater, 2013)

#36 Post by warren oates » Sun Jun 09, 2013 5:08 pm

For me the key to believing in and being fully affected by the drama of that final fight is all about its duration, repetition pettiness and annoying tone and tangents. It's like being witness to any number of fights I've seem glimpses of in real life (or been a party to myself). Part of what it means to be in a long-term relationship is to be able to fight like this -- honestly, stupidly, passionately, indulgently, annoyingly -- and then make up again. When you're right inside one of these fights it can and should feel like everything is on the line. And even though they are both behaving badly and casting off most of the charms that make them as characters pretty good company most other times, neither one of them cares about that in the moment. And that's the sweet spot the film seems like it was aiming at. At various points in the scene I had enough of one or both of the characters. Both were guilty and neither could see (or concede) how much. She was indeed acting like "the mayor of crazy town" and he was being a selfish prick. The fight is supposed to feel more than a little wearying to them and to us. Insofar as these films have been about immersing us in the moment -- of romance, of connection -- it's only right to plunge us with equal intensity into moments of unpleasantness and disconnection.

Zot!
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Re: Before Midnight (Richard Linklater, 2013)

#37 Post by Zot! » Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:24 am

Well, I guess you guys have me outnumbered regarding the dinner scene. However, I agree with Warren that the finale is embarrasingly honest.
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That I have certainly lived. If anything there wasn't enough repetition and shrillness. It was a little bit "Scenes from a Marriage", but I suppose that is only fair. The only item that seemsed a little glossed over was their (confirmed?) infidelities. That was surprising, and given little weight ultimately.

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ShellOilJunior
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Re: Before Midnight (Richard Linklater, 2013)

#38 Post by ShellOilJunior » Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:51 pm

I've greatly enjoyed reading both of your takes on the dinner scene. I just saw the film today so everything is still sinking in. The dinner scene reminded of the dinner scene in The Secret of the Grain - a film I find masterful.


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Black Hat
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Re: Before Midnight (Richard Linklater, 2013)

#40 Post by Black Hat » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:03 pm

I'm somewhat ambivalent about Before Midnight as I really felt the argument in the hotel in ways that I believe is the point of moviemaking. However, what killed the movie for me was the immensely unlikeable Celine. An angry, unhappy, bitter human being who repeatedly bashed her husband because she was angry she'd put on twenty pounds. I frankly don't understand why he still wanted to be with her because it's not like he was staying for the sake of the twins he was staying because he still loved her. It was a shame they made Celine so unlikeable.

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warren oates
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Re: Before Midnight (Richard Linklater, 2013)

#41 Post by warren oates » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:29 pm

Another Q&A with Richard Linklater, Julie Delpy and Ethan Hawke, moderated by Phillip Lopate.

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Professor Wagstaff
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Re: Before Midnight (Richard Linklater, 2013)

#42 Post by Professor Wagstaff » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:37 pm

Lopate also had a solid article on the movie in the most recent Film Comment.

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rohmerin
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Re: Before Midnight (Richard Linklater, 2013)

#43 Post by rohmerin » Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:12 am

Given that I am not an IMDB user, perfect place for asking on their boards, I have to do it here.

Are we, Spaniards, known abroad for being ... hairy ? Is it a cliché like Sicilian women with mustache? Oh my!

I agree the other thing Ethan Hawke plays: the eye visual contact flirting.

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Roger Ryan
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Re: Before Midnight (Richard Linklater, 2013)

#44 Post by Roger Ryan » Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:49 am

As an American, I didn't take the line of dialogue regarding Spaniards as a rude generalization. I think Hawke's character sees himself as somewhat weak and boy-like; he comically adopts the persona of a macho Spaniard since he perceives this is the opposite of himself. In other words, he sees the Spanish male archetype as something Delpy's character may find more attractive than himself.

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Shrew
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Re: Before Midnight (Richard Linklater, 2013)

#45 Post by Shrew » Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:06 am

In America, I think there's a half-jokey stereotype that southern Europeans (Spain, Italy, Greece, though predominantly the latter two) are a bit hairier, but in the film Hawke's primarily projecting a generic Mediterranean machismo (which does tend to be stereotypically hairy), and pretty much arbitrarily calls it Spanish.

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swo17
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Re: 856-859 The Before Trilogy

#46 Post by swo17 » Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:12 pm


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mfunk9786
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Re: 856-859 The Before Trilogy

#47 Post by mfunk9786 » Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:13 pm

hahahahahahahaha

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Ribs
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Re: 856-859 The Before Trilogy

#48 Post by Ribs » Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:14 pm

Especially great as that makes it relatively likely to not be included in the February Flash Sale

Edit: Oh, and fantastic, they got a single essay, what a lavish edition they've put together

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mfunk9786
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Re: 856-859 The Before Trilogy

#49 Post by mfunk9786 » Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:22 pm

It does seem a bit light for a $99.99 MSRP set, that's for sure.

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Jean-Luc Garbo
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Re: 856-859 The Before Trilogy

#50 Post by Jean-Luc Garbo » Tue Nov 15, 2016 5:27 pm

And kogonada on board for insight!

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