741 My Winnipeg

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origami_mustache · #26 Post by **origami_mustache** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:41 am

I don't understand the boring complaint...I didn't know where the film was going to go next, and Maddin delivered unique imagery to match the eccentric tales...the repetitiveness served a rhythmic and poetic purpose. I suppose the only thing that bothered me was the use of stills. I thought they sort of cheapened things at times.

#27 Post by **mfunk9786** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:17 am

origami_mustache wrote:I don't understand the boring complaint...I didn't know where the film was going to go next, and Maddin delivered unique imagery to match the eccentric tales...the repetitiveness served a rhythmic and poetic purpose. I suppose the only thing that bothered me was the use of stills. I thought they sort of cheapened things at times.

For me, the repetitive narration/images, combined with the constant assault of uninteresting stories/plot lines bored me to death. Like an earlier poster (LQ) said, if I heard anything about "the lap" or "the forks" again, I was going to jam a fork into my lap. It was like being at a community college poetry reading. Hell, a prison poetry reading.

Accompanying lousy poetry with pretty/occasionally gorgeous imagery doesn't make your lousy poetry any more interesting. It only serves to fool some people into thinking it's interesting.

I don't understand why there's a plethora of backlash against a script like Juno, and none against films like this. At least Juno didn't walk around saying "Honest to blog!" a hundred times during the film. Not that I'm necessarily defending Diablo Cody's occasionally grating dialogue.

The lap, the forks. The locker room. The forks. The showers. The forks, the lap. The forks.

MichaelB · #28 Post by **MichaelB** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:36 am

mfunk9786 wrote:Accompanying lousy poetry with pretty/occasionally gorgeous imagery doesn't make your lousy poetry any more interesting. It only serves to fool some people into thinking it's interesting.

Amusingly enough, this is exactly the opposite reaction to that of my colleague Ryan Gilbey, whose Sight & Sound review concludes:

The level of invention in Maddin's writing is so high that there are times when the film's visual style, for all its busyness, lags behind noticeably. The textural collage is appropriately jumbled and hallucinatory: the editing is so frenetic that many shots register only subliminally, while dissolves make the images bleed together into abstract shadows and smudges during a spooky tour of three vertically stacked swimming pools. Noirish monochrome puts up a good fight against colour inserts and burnished shadow puppetry, but this is still a film that rewards the ears more than the eyes. It's no new thing for audiences to be coerced into buying the soundtrack of a film they've just seen. On this occasion, I'm hoping there'll be an audiobook.

#29 Post by **mfunk9786** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:41 am

If he mentioned the sleepwalking bit once, if he mentioned the forks in the river only, say, five times... if he limited himself to saying "Winnipeg, Winnipeg, Winnipeg." only, say... 100 times rather than a thousand, maybe I could get behind the narration. But as it stands, I was so thrilled when he changed the subject from the main thread of narration that I was doomed to be let down when I realized that the individual stories he had to tell were so weak and self-indulgent.

MichaelB · #30 Post by **MichaelB** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:44 am

mfunk9786 wrote:If he mentioned the sleepwalking bit once, if he mentioned the forks in the river only, say, five times... if he limited himself to saying "Winnipeg, Winnipeg, Winnipeg." only, say... 100 times rather than a thousand, maybe I could get behind the narration. But as it stands, I was so thrilled when he changed the subject from the main thread of narration that I was doomed to be let down when I realized that the individual stories he had to tell were so weak and self-indulgent.

Well, I'm seeing the live version tonight - would you like me to heckle him?

#31 Post by **mfunk9786** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:47 am

MichaelB wrote:Well, I'm seeing the live version tonight - would you like me to heckle him?

Would you, please?

LQ · #32 Post by LQ » Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:53 am

Oh, that would be amazing if someone would. It'd cut him down to size. Based on this movie alone, I have fashioned this vision of Maddin as being a smarmy, self important prat and I expect that all the high praise heaped on this film has only inflated his head more. I know that we few who hated My Winnipeg are in the minority here; I hope there is one strong voice of dissent there, at least.

edited for spelling

#33 Post by **mfunk9786** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:04 am

LQ wrote:Oh, that would be amazing if someone would. It'd cut him down to size. Based on this movie alone, I have fashioned this vision of Madden as being a smarmy, self important prat and I expect that all the high praise heaped on this film has only inflated his head more. I know that we few who hated My Winnipeg are in the extreme minority; I hope there is one strong voice of dissent there, at least.

Smarmy, self-important prats tend to make the best directors. *cough* Godard *cough*

MichaelB · #34 Post by **MichaelB** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:09 am

LQ wrote:Based on this movie alone, I have fashioned this vision of Madden as being a smarmy, self important prat and I expect that all the high praise heaped on this film has only inflated his head more.

I've met him several times over the past decade or so, and you couldn't be more wrong - I've rarely come across anyone more self-deprecating.

Barmy · #35 Post by **Barmy** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:21 am

I've seen Maddin at screenings ad nauseum. He is extremely self-involved. Self-deprecation is a form of narcissism.

And just throwing gobs of images on a screen doesn't make it artful, so Sight and Sound can kiss my arse.

It all went awry after Ice Nymphs, when he started doing more explicitly pseudo-autobiographical stuff.

LQ · #36 Post by LQ » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:24 am

Well, I take your word for it. Really, should I have started elsewhere in entering into his oeuvre? Is there a good "starter movie"? Because this made me despise not only the film, but also Maddin himself. And I don't necessarily -want- to. Would you recommend another to try?

#37 Post by **Matt** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:30 am

LQ wrote:Well, I take your word for it. Really, should I have started elsewhere in entering into his oeuvre? Is there a good "starter movie"? Because this made me despise not only the film, but also Maddin himself. And I don't necessarily -want- to. Would you recommend another to try?

If you don't like this film, you probably won't like any Maddin. It's okay not to like his work.

I don't get the criticisms in this thread that this film is self-indulgent. Well of course it is, it's autobiography.

MichaelB · #38 Post by **MichaelB** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:31 am

Barmy wrote:It all went awry after Ice Nymphs

...which I thought was his worst film by far, and the only Maddin film that I've never felt tempted to revisit.

(I only have it on DVD because Zeitgeist cannily triple-billed it with the infinitely superior Archangel and The Heart of the World.)

But only three of his post-Ice Nymphs films could honestly be described as autobiographical (and in the case of Brand Upon the Brain! it's so oblique that it barely registers as autobiography), and he's been pretty prolific since 1997.

LQ wrote:Well, I take your word for it. Really, should I have started elsewhere in entering into his oeuvre? Is there a good "starter movie"? Because this made me despise not only the film, but also Maddin himself. And I don't necessarily -want- to. Would you recommend another to try?

Well, he's been very lucky with DVD compilations - you only need to buy three to end up with five features, four shorts and a feature-length documentary.

I'd probably recommend Kino's Careful for relative beginners - until My Winnipeg, it was my single favourite Maddin film, and the DVD also comes with a wonderful commentary and Noam Gonick's feature-length documentary on Maddin's work (with plenty of interview material). But I hear it's being reissued quite soon, so you might be better off renting.

The other two outstanding DVDs are Zeitgeist's The Guy Maddin Collection, which includes Twilight of the Ice Nymphs, Archangel and The Heart of the World (with commentaries on both the features), and the British (Soda Pictures) release of The Saddest Music in the World, which also throws in Cowards Bend the Knee, three shorts and quite a few other extras.

#39 Post by **mfunk9786** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:41 am

Matt wrote:If you don't like this film, you probably won't like any Maddin. It's okay not to like his work.

I don't get the criticisms in this thread that this film is self-indulgent. Well of course it is, it's autobiography.

I have no problem with Maddin being self-absorbed or self-indulgent, in and of itself. Any director or memoirist worth his/her salt should be self-absorbed. But it's the assumption that anything he says (despite how shallow or repetitive it is) is poetic and interesting that annoys me. He's become the cinema's answer to Augusten Burroughs.

chaddoli · #40 Post by **chaddoli** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:01 pm

LQ wrote:Really, should I have started elsewhere in entering into his oeuvre? Is there a good "starter movie"? Because this made me despise not only the film, but also Maddin himself. And I don't necessarily -want- to. Would you recommend another to try?

The Heart of the World

Barmy · #41 Post by **Barmy** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:07 pm

His first 4 or so films had a narrative to some degree. If you hate Winnipeg you might still like them, although the style (sadly) hasn't really changed that much (well, it's gotten busier). I liked Ice Nymphs, but I'm a nymphomaniac.

colinr0380 · #42 Post by **colinr0380** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:33 pm

I'd also like to add to Michael's list Dracula: Pages From A Virgin's Diary which is currently my joint favourite Maddin film along with Careful. The British Tartan disc of Dracula also features The Heart of the World, a commentary and a number of interviews.

Barmy wrote:I liked Ice Nymphs, but I'm a nymphomaniac.

Does that mean if I liked The Saddest Music In The World I'm a dipsomaniac?

John Cope · #43 Post by **John Cope** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:03 pm

I too have mixed feelings about Maddin. I love, love, love his earlier work (up to and including Ice Nymphs, which is fascinating precisely because it's so unwieldy and such a mess); but then somewhere after that, perhaps because of the troubles that took their toll on Nymphs, he lost his appeal for me. I hated Dracula and thought Saddest Music was excruciatingly boring. Perhaps it just felt to me that he was returning too often to the same well o' inspiration and doing it with successively lesser enthusiasm. Saddest Music in particular felt like a rote retread but would have worked fine as a short at half it's length; its central conceit is way too over extended at its present length (you get the sense that it's all a hell of a lot funnier to Maddin than anyone else and he doesn't care a whit).

Having said all that, I was then completely won over by Cowards Bend the Knee and it seemed Maddin had rediscovered his inspiration in a fresh way. I have yet to see the films since that time. However, I've been hesitant to do so as I now get the sense that the great breakthrough Maddin found in Cowards, which allowed him to fuse his unique aesthetic sensibility to a personal quest, is now his new schtick and I ain't interested in watching him get stuck in a rut yet again. I will see these newer films at some point and hope to be proven wrong.

LQ · #44 Post by LQ » Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:32 pm

colinr0380 wrote:Does that mean if I liked The Saddest Music In The World I'm a dipsomaniac?

I admire your wit

#45 Post by **domino harvey** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:42 pm

Where were some of you a couple months ago when the board wanted to skin me alive for daring to suggest Maddin was terrible? Nevertheless, glad to have you all on the team.

LQ · #46 Post by LQ » Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:49 pm

The resistance is mobilizing

Cold Bishop · #47 Post by **Cold Bishop** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:12 pm

domino harvey wrote:Nevertheless, glad to have you all on the team.

"The joy, joy, joy of meeting someone new!"

#48 Post by **Matt** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:40 pm

I guess I'm surprised by the intensity of feeling against Maddin's work. I understand that his style doesn't appeal to everyone, but I figured most people who dislike his films would just shrug him off and at least grant that he's making films unlike anything else out there. Many of the most revered directors around here made pretty much the same film over and over. Why does Maddin get your sharpest knives?

#49 Post by **mfunk9786** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:57 pm

Matt wrote:Why does Maddin get your sharpest knives?

Because of how grating this film was.

chaddoli · #50 Post by **chaddoli** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:41 pm

mfunk9786 wrote:
Matt wrote:Why does Maddin get your sharpest knives?
Because of how grating this film was.

Oh, come on. I agree with Matt fully here. Maddin is an acquired taste, meaning only some people are going to like the kind of work he does. He is a totally inoffensive auteur who creates little cinematic dioramas for his and a small group of fans' enjoyment. He makes exactly the kind of films he wants to make and is able to do so often and repeatedly, usually finding distribution. Good for him. I really don't see how someone interested in cinema could find his films gratingly bad. They are unique, no? They are humane and searching. They incorporate long forgotten cinematic technique into 21st century filmmaking. None of these qualities make for necessarily good films, but certainly films of more interest than most that are released in a given year. If you don't like Maddin, don't see his films because they are what they are. There is a difference between a film not being your cup of tea and being bad.

I think some people here who saw this as their first Maddin are transferring their confusion and shock at something unique into an outright dismissal. I can totally understand someone seeing a few Maddin films and deciding they aren't for him, but seeing one and declaring him the worst piece of shit ever strikes me as incredibly close-minded.

He referenced forks and laps a lot? So fucking what?