322 The Complete Mr. Arkadin

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miless
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#251 Post by miless » Fri Jun 30, 2006 3:12 pm

arsonfilms wrote:
davidhare wrote:Denti's right. If you keep looking the voice of Robert Arden in particular is out of whack in all three versions. (That's what you get for using radio actors.)
To be fair to Arden though, Welles not only re-dubbed but re-wrote a large part of the film after it had been shot. I suspect it's more noticable with Arden because his character is one of the few that wasn't dubbed by Welles himself. In fact, I believe that Arden is one of only two or three actors in the film who got to use their own voice.
this is true for most of Welles' later films (on The Trial he even dubbed in a few lines for Anthony Perkins... when told he wanted to know which ones were dubbed but Welles refused to tell him and Perkins could never figure it out) Welles truley was a great radio persona, able to do a lot of different voices

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cdnchris
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#252 Post by cdnchris » Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:12 am

Watched this entire set a while ago and have been meaning to come on and talk about some aspects of the film, but forgot what the hell I wanted to talk about.

At any rate, though, I have to say I found the film(s), though a mess, quite fun. I had heard middling things about the film before so never bothered with it, but decided to give it a go when this set was announced. I ended up watching the comprehensive version first and caught myself quite enjoying it. I then watched the Corinth version and actually enjoyed it more (I have to agree with other posters, though, that I'm sure Welles would have cut out some of the inserted scenes, as they almost stop the film and the pacing on the rest of the film was quite quick and to the point) I then viewed the "Confidential Report" version and really just saw it as an interesting alternate take, like the "Love Conquers All" version on the Brazil set (if I had seen it originally I probably would have just dismissed it). Despite some things (the facial hair, Arden, and the strange ending, which I don't feel really worked in any of the versions) I still found the film fun and quite interesting.

And the incredible presentation by Criterion on this set motivated me to actually do it all over a couple of days, much to the dismay of my wife. Excellent set and glad I took a chance on it.

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Brian Oblivious
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#253 Post by Brian Oblivious » Tue Jul 04, 2006 7:43 pm

Jonas Mekas in November, 1962 wrote:Mr. Arkadin closed its first run. But the talk is still going around the town. Some say it is great. Others say it is not as good as Citizen Kane or even Touch of Evil. As I see it, what does it matter? When it comes to a true artist, what does it matter if one work is a bit less good than the other? Wouldn't it be ridiculous to reduce Picasso to one great (or perfect) painting or William Carlos Williams to one single perfect poem? What fool would do such a thing? If we can learn anything from all the talk about the author's cinema, it is this: A minor work of a true artist takes an important place in the totality of that artist's life work and must be approached with as much love as his masterpieces. You always have to remember that the artist doesn't exactly need you: it is you who could profit even from his minor work, if you come to it with love. End of sermon.

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quequeg
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#254 Post by quequeg » Sat Aug 12, 2006 1:35 pm

Just got around to watching the Corinth Version with commentary by Jonathan Rosenbaum and James Naremore and was very impressed with the commentary. The comments were insightful and well-timed with the film. The only quibble I have is that Mr. Rosenbaum has the annoying habit of using the phrase "you know" quite frequently. Even this did not detract too much from the experience and I learned a lot about Welles and this film.
I had the pleasure to take two film courses taught by James Naremore at Indiana University way back in 1975--76. He is the only professor who I remember after all these years. I wish I could take a course from him again.

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ellipsis7
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#255 Post by ellipsis7 » Sat May 26, 2007 6:10 am

Interesting new intro and info by Jonathan Rosenbaum in fresh publication of The Seven Arkadins article in his new collection DISCOVERING ORSON WELLES... Talks of new work coming out of France re. the various versions and the CC commentary on the Corinth version and his liner notes on the other two - apparently Rosenbaum is still revising and reviewing certain of his positions and preferences based on the new work...
When I wrote the liner notes for the Voyager disc of CONFIDENTIAL REPORT (no. 6) in the early 1990's, my assertion in those notes that no. 6 was the second-best version of MR ARKADIN was censored. Roughly 15 years later, when I was commissioned to write liner notes for what I'd previously thought to be the best version (i.e. no 3 (- the Corinth version)) for a DVD box set of ARKADIN released by Criterion, a company that grew out of Voyager - a version that (Francois) Thomas persuaded me may not have been the best after all, at least in all particulars - I wasn't censored about my preferences. but it's amusing to note that in the interests of both clarity and symmetry with the two other versions of ARKADIN included in the box set and their respective liner notes, I was still asked to revised my notes to make them more supportive...

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Magic Hate Ball
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#256 Post by Magic Hate Ball » Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:04 pm

I just finished watching the Corinthin version or whatever the first disc is. I got it used for 30 dollars, a really goddamn incredible deal when you see it's 50 dollars everywhere else. Anyways, a great movie, even though I think I'll have to watch it a couple more times to pick up on everything. Some gorgeous (err!, by gorgeous I mean fantastic) cinematography here, even if a lot of it isn't very smooth (it seemed like every shot in Citizen Kane and Touch of Evil [the other two Orson Welles movies I've seen] were made of butter). Also, the flea circus scene was hilarious. "Come on. Allez...allez...oop!"

Edit: Wow, I'm really surprised so many people don't like this film.

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Joe Buck
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#257 Post by Joe Buck » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:50 pm

Not me. I love it. As a Welles fan, I do hear a lot of negativity toward it, and especially it's leading man, but I like it all. The Criterion edition helped make the film more loveable. My favorite part is on the boat, with all that crazy rocking. Amazing shot. Yep, Arkadin is in my top 5 Welles films. =D>

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Magic Hate Ball
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#258 Post by Magic Hate Ball » Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:18 am

Joe Buck wrote:My favorite part is on the boat, with all that crazy rocking.
Oh, god, that scene was incredible. The parts where the camera moved with Welles while the boat room moved around would've given me motion sickness in theaters. Also, this movie has one the most effective "scary low camera angle looking up" shots ever.

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Darth Lavender
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#259 Post by Darth Lavender » Fri Nov 02, 2007 12:47 am

Only had chance to watch the film once (I have the DVD, but that's at home and I'm at university) and found the whole thing immensely enjoyable.

In entertainment terms; absolutely first-rate Welles. Sure, it may not have broken new ground like Citizen Kane or Othello, or had the philosophy of The Trial, but I wouldn't be surprised if this film ends up joining Hellraiser II, La Chute de la Maison Usher and The Animatrix as one of my most-watched DVDs.

Why couldn't the sometimes fun, but too-often dry "F for Fake" be this consistently enjoyable?

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#260 Post by Otaku83 » Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:26 am

I just finished watching the new Comprehensive version of the film, and I feel that I liked the Corinth version a little better. Of course, I still need to watch Confidential Report in order to see how it is, but I enjoyed the Corinth version quite a bit.

F for Fake is not my favourite Welles' film, but I found myself laughing most of the way through it; it was a very enjoyable film.

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Lino
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#261 Post by Lino » Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:54 pm

Joe Dante on the Mr. Arkadin original theatrical trailer, which is not included in the Criterion edition.

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Madadayo
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#262 Post by Madadayo » Fri May 02, 2008 1:47 pm

Arg! Someone fix that recurring and disappearing shadow in the film loop where Raina has her head on the steering wheel for a LONG TIME. Hard to believe Criterion didn't catch that.

Robert Arden (aka Bob Harden) has a memorable scene in Chaplin's A King in New York as well.

Right on, Bob. A classic Welles-in-Exile AND Chaplin-in-Exile film under your belt.

Yes, I know Herr ist Tott, so I'll set my wayback machine and go tell him right now.

BWilson
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#263 Post by BWilson » Sat May 10, 2008 3:17 pm

Madadayo wrote:Arg! Someone fix that recurring and disappearing shadow in the film loop where Raina has her head on the steering wheel for a LONG TIME. Hard to believe Criterion didn't catch that.

I find flickering shadow annoying also, but why would you expect Criterion to alter the film?

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Madadayo
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#264 Post by Madadayo » Sun May 11, 2008 2:47 am

Because they reconstructed both the Corinth version and Comprehensive version from scratch.

Why not fix a sloppily edited film loop while they were in there and had a chance?

Doing so hardly enters Beatrice Othello country.

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CSM126
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#265 Post by CSM126 » Sun May 11, 2008 4:47 am

Madadayo wrote:Because they reconstructed both the Corinth version and Comprehensive version from scratch.

Why not fix a sloppily edited film loop while they were in there and had a chance?

Doing so hardly enters Beatrice Othello country.
And let's hope they'll someday fix that part in Persona when the film breaks and runs out of the camera, too. Don't you just hate that?

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colinr0380
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#266 Post by colinr0380 » Sun May 11, 2008 5:35 am

Good idea CSM126, didn't they also 'fix' Weekend in one DVD release? :wink:

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CSM126
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#267 Post by CSM126 » Sun May 11, 2008 5:41 am

Ooh, and maybe they can scoop up Planet Terror and fix all those nasty chemical stains and scratches. Must have been a horrible accident with the prints they sent out.

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domino harvey
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#268 Post by domino harvey » Sun May 11, 2008 12:15 pm

I can't believe they released this movie in black and white: Welles deserves to be seen in color!! Yet another reason why Legend is a better DVD company than Criterion

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MichaelB
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#269 Post by MichaelB » Sun May 11, 2008 1:45 pm

CSM126 wrote:And let's hope they'll someday fix that part in Persona when the film breaks and runs out of the camera, too. Don't you just hate that?
And that sound at the beginning of The Conversation - an utter disaster. I've never come across distortion like that before.

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Joe Buck
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#270 Post by Joe Buck » Sun May 11, 2008 10:17 pm

Yeah! And the Magnificent Ambersons....err....nevermind.

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Cold Bishop
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#271 Post by Cold Bishop » Sun May 11, 2008 10:35 pm

And can someone get rid of that damn repeated scene in Exterminating Ange... oh wait.

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Re: 322 The Complete Mr. Arkadin

#272 Post by Antoine Doinel » Fri Dec 26, 2008 12:31 am

So I sat down tonight with the Comprehensive Version (little did I know the film opens on Christmas, so that was a nice coincidence) and, while it's great that Criterion has done right be Welles in providing such an extensive release for this film, I really don't understand the admiration for this film. While I understand the need for suspending disbelief or just going along for the ride with these kinds of films (ie. The Big Sleep completely succeeds despite throwing all hope for a cohesive narrative out the window), the flaws with this film are too upfront and too frequent to be overlooked. Essentially a Citizen Kane redux, Welles film that strives to be about one's identity being consumed by wealth (or the pursuit of it) hinges itself on a plot hook that is frankly ridicuous:
SpoilerShow
Arkadin hires Van Stratten to find out his secrets and then gets upset when he finds out about them and spends the rest of the film worrying his daughter will find out, when this all could have been avoided by not offering up proposal in the first place. It doesn't make sense that a man who spend 30 years hiding his identity would pay off a stranger to potentially upend what he spent decades successfully hiding.
All that said, the film offers some of Welles most exquisite shots, particularly of Zouk's wintery, hideaway. For any first time Welles fans however, I would definitely point them to most of his other films before getting them to view this. I'm not sure if Welles had the final edit, if I would've liked the film any more given my issues with the actual plot, but it certainly would've helped in achieving the fluidity this version tries to address.

Ishmael
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Re: 322 The Complete Mr. Arkadin

#273 Post by Ishmael » Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:15 am

Antoine Doinel wrote:
SpoilerShow
Arkadin hires Van Stratten to find out his secrets and then gets upset when he finds out about them and spends the rest of the film worrying his daughter will find out, when this all could have been avoided by not offering up proposal in the first place. It doesn't make sense that a man who spend 30 years hiding his identity would pay off a stranger to potentially upend what he spent decades successfully hiding
Arkadin's motive in hiring Van Stratten is not what he initially says it is. Arkadin already knows who he is. Why he actually wants Van Stratten to find all the friends and accomplices in his past is so he can kill them. Then he intends to kill Van Stratten. His motivation, at least in part, is definitely to prevent his daughter from finding out his real history, but he didn't predict that she'd get involved with Van Stratten. Thus his upset about his plan being ruined; the person he was trying to hide things from has found out about them anyway.

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Re: 322 The Complete Mr. Arkadin

#274 Post by Antoine Doinel » Fri Dec 26, 2008 11:45 am

How he could not have predicted his daughter would get involved with Van Stratten with all the secretaries following her and their week together prior to the masquerade ball? Also, using a complete stranger to dredge up the past and then hope he won't use it to blackmail you or tell someone in your family seems needlessly convoluted. It would seem that with Arkadin's resources, he could've just hired a professional or used his own army of men to find out the history of these people himself.

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Re: 322 The Complete Mr. Arkadin

#275 Post by Ishmael » Fri Dec 26, 2008 12:47 pm

Antoine Doinel wrote:How he could not have predicted his daughter would get involved with Van Stratten with all the secretaries following her and their week together prior to the masquerade ball?
Because Arkadin thinks Van Stratten is a complete lowlife, and it never occurs to him that his daughter would be interested in such a person. Look how confident he is that that report he assembles about Van Stratten is going to destroy his daughter's infatuation. Of course, it backfires.
Antoine Doinel wrote:Also, using a complete stranger to dredge up the past and then hope he won't use it to blackmail you or tell someone in your family seems needlessly convoluted. It would seem that with Arkadin's resources, he could've just hired a professional or used his own army of men to find out the history of these people himself.
Maybe, but it seems like it would be a lot simpler to whack some unattached stranger than some guy who works for you. Also, the guy on your staff may talk to others on your staff sooner than an outsider might, which makes it more likely that the outsider would keep things secret longer.

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