There's also a thread on [url=http://www.criterionforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3431] Dovzhenko[/url] they might want to check out since it mentions Grapevine if I remember correct.

[quote:0104f384c6="HerrSchreck"]Yea those Kino Keatons, though amazing undertakings at the dawn of the dvd age, have been superceded qualitatively by those Pal editions (though some of them still hold up pretty well). I'm just going by what Ive seen on the [url=http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDReviews18/keaton-fr.htm] Beaver comps[/url] and heard thru word of mouth. I don't own any of those feature sets. But if you're PAL-able, MK2 is definitely the way to go, it'd seem.[/quote:0104f384c6]
I saw the MK2 versions of The General, College and Steamboat Bill, Jr. when they premiered at Cannes, and can vouch for their outstanding picture quality. Three Ages was also restored, and those four restored films are available outside of the big boxed set from Cinema Club in the UK (The General in one two-disc release—same as in France—the remaining three in another). From what I understand, the print quality is the same on the others, but the new encodes are better. Depending on your budget, you might want to consider grabbing those four films, and sticking with Kino for the others, especially if you already own the Kinos. If not, I guess evaluate your finances. If you buy the French box, you'll have a cool booklet that's French only, so if you can't read the language, it might be a disappointment.

The contents of the French and UK releases of The General are the same, so you can pick your favorite based on package design and available pricing. They contain Joe Hisaishi's new score and Robert Israel's old one.

Many still hold Carl Davis' score for The General (which I haven't heard) in very high esteem, but it is only available with the "Buster Keaton Chronicles" release, which is not in the same league as the MK2 restorations in terms of PQ.

The MoC shorts release is supposed to be quite good (they're progressive vs. the interlaced French set from Arte, and have three minutes of the Cook that were missing from the Arte release) but the price of importing it has kept me away thus far. If you don't already have the Kino releases and/or the Arbuckle-Keaton shorts, it might just be worth it to just import the French box and the shorts box.

Also, if you live near Costco, I recently saw TCM's Keaton set at the one near my house for $18— which is $12 cheaper than you can usually find it. That'd be a nice way to round out your collection with the beginning of the MGM era. (It's a bit sad to see how much freedom Keaton loses in the span of two movies, but the set is worth having for "The Cameraman" and the better moments of "Spite Marriage." I don't know if all Costcos stock the same DVDs all the time or not, but I thought I'd share.

The four new MK2 Keaton transfers would be a great way for silent film to enter the HD market, but I'm not sure if it'll ever happen or not.

I was reading a bit about Charles Vanel's film Dans la Nuit and wonder if there is much of a chance it will become available on DVD. Unless I'm mistaken, it was restored in the pre-DVD era, but it still seems like it has received so much attention (relative to other French silents, I guess) that it would be a good candidate for DVD release. Anyone know who holds the rights in any region?

[b:5bf2e96d8f]Dans la nuit[/b:5bf2e96d8f] has been shown as silent of the month on Arte some years ago I think, and there has been some speculation about a forthcoming dvd from french Institut Lumière but nothing sure.

Some caps:

[img:5bf2e96d8f]http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/5639/danslanuit3yd8.jpg[/img:5bf2e96d8f]
[img:5bf2e96d8f]http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/5636/danslanuit6am8.jpg[/img:5bf2e96d8f]
[img:5bf2e96d8f]http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/8222/danslanuit7rr0.jpg[/img:5bf2e96d8f]

Some additional news: Patrick Brion of Cinéma du minuit has announced that he hopes to screen Fritz Lang's [b:5bf2e96d8f]Der wandernde Bild[/b:5bf2e96d8f] by the end of 2008:

[quote:5bf2e96d8f]En ce qui concerne notre cycle "Raretés, Curiosités", vous pourrez y voir sans doute avant la fin de l'année DAS WANDERNDE BILD de Fritz Lang, si tous les problèmes liés à la restructuration du film sont achevés par les archives allemandes. Le film n'existe malheureusement plus dans sa totalité mais la version existante mérite néanmoins d'être diffusée.[/quote:5bf2e96d8f]

I can confirm that the Davis score for The General is exceptional. Agreed the print quality on the MK2 Cinema Club releases is superior, but I keep my old PAL VHS of The General for that score, much as I keep the same series VHS of Fairbanks' The Thief of Bagdad for Davis' Rimsky-Korsakov drenched score which tears strips off all the inferior DVD accompaniments.

[quote:ef8440d768="rollotomassi"]I can confirm that the Davis score for The General is exceptional. Agreed the print quality on the MK2 Cinema Club releases is superior, but I keep my old PAL VHS of The General for that score, much as I keep the same series VHS of Fairbanks' The Thief of Bagdad for Davis' Rimsky-Korsakov drenched score which tears strips off all the inferior DVD accompaniments.[/quote:ef8440d768]
How close are they in terms of run times and edits? When I have some disposable income, maybe I'll get the Keaton Chronicles set and try to synch the Davis score to the MK2 print.

Looks like we won't need to worry about fiddling around trying to synch scores.

Kino is NOT releasing the MK2 version.

[quote:ff61112441]NEWLY MASTERED IN HD FROM A 35MM ARCHIVE PRINT STRUCK FROM THE ORIGINAL CAMERA NEGATIVE

SPECIAL FEATURES:
- Three musical scores to choose from:
[b:ff61112441](1) Music composed and conducted by Carl Davis, performed by The Thames Silents Orchestra (in 5.1 Stereo Surround or 2.0 Stereo)[/b:ff61112441]
(2) Music arranged and directed by Robert Israel
(3) Theatre organ score by Lee Erwin
- A video tour of the authentic General, presented in association with The Southern Museum
- A tour of the filming locations, presented by John Bengtson, author of Silent Echoes
- Behind-the-scenes home movie footage
- Filmed introduction by Gloria Swanson
- Filmed introduction by Orson Welles
- The Buster Express, a brisk montage of train gags from throughout Keaton s career[/quote:ff61112441]
UPDATE: Here are the MK2 features, for reference:

[quote:ff61112441]Introduction By David Robinson
Restoration Featurette
Recording The 2004 Score Featurette
The Railroader
Buster Keaton Rides Again
Tinted Version Extract
Filming The General Featurette
Orson Welles Presents The General Featurette
Return Of The General Short Film
The Iron Mule Short Film
Alices Tin Pony Walt Disney Cartoon
The Great Locomotive Chase Disney Film Trailer
Filmography Featurette
Booklet[/quote:ff61112441]

I've now received the new absolut medien disc of Kuleshov's "Engineer Pright", released in collaboration with Hyperkino (arte this time has no hand in it, although the packaging looks exactly like all the other arte/absolut medien silents).
Another fantastic disc: the film, despite being only 30 min., is certainly a revelation. A sort of industrial espionage crime thriller with a little bit of love interest thrown in, the narrative itself isn't much, though it sheds nice light on the conceptions of America then prevalent in Russia/USSR. But Kuleshov certainly is the missing link between Bauer (whose set designer he was) and the later and much better known Soviet filmmakers. Unusual camera set-ups galore, the beginnings of Russian montage (very well crafted already, though still indebted to Griffith), lots of nods - though very ironic - to the 'decadent' filmmaking of Bauer etc. etc., and all already breathing the avantgardist/utopian stance of early Soviet filmmaking. The film is presented in two different versions, the restored version (30 min.) and the only known print as preserved in the Russian archives (16. min, difference is due to lack of intertitles). It's certainly damaged and not overly sharp, but all in all has good quality (miles ahead of the much later "Odna", for instance).

Now this may seem still skimpy as far as running time is concerned, but there's also a 54 min. documentary on Kuleshov on the disc, made in 1962 and featuring extensive excerpts from other films by him (and Bauer) plus interviews with Kuleshov, Shklovskij and others. Highly informative, and the man himself comes over as a very friendly, thoughtful and knowledgeable character. I was completely amazed by this and would say: if CC really had some guts, those Kuleshov films would be first choice for some Eclipse set; and it would probably blow away all the others released until now.

And then there's this Hyperkino thing. It struck me as a very useful way of annotating films; clicking the enter button whenever a 'footnote' number appears on the screen (this is an optional feature, of course) will transport you to another menu carrying text screens, photographs and occasionally to excerpts of films by Bauer (!), showing the relation of Kuleshov's film to his earlier set designs for that director. There's certainly more material here than could have been covered by an audio commentary. Would be an ideal way of annotating something like "Prospero's Books", for instance.

Now for the letdown: the disc is only in Russian or in German, so it's probably useless to most of you at this point. But it has already been mentioned somewhere in the BFI thread that Hyperkino will release this also via the BFI, so the situation will change. For those who can read either Russian or German, don't wait, though! This is an essential disc for understanding a particular time in film history, and it's hugely entertaining on top of it. I'm pretty sure this will be among my Top Ten non-CC discs in the end of the year poll...

REJOICE!

Murnau's "Die Finanzen des Großherzogs" und "Schloss Vogelöd" are both now released in Spain via divisared!

Großherzog
Vogelöd

[quote:84203d9a52="Tommaso"]REJOICE!

Murnau's "Die Finanzen des Großherzogs" und "Schloss Vogelöd" are both now released in Spain via divisared!

[url=http://www.dvdgo.com/product~catgid~0~list~0~prodid~126961~typeproduct~1~dvd~The+Grand+Duke%B4s+Finances:+Collector%B4s+Special+Edition.htm]Großherzog[/url]
[url=http://www.dvdgo.com/product~catgid~0~list~0~prodid~126960~typeproduct~1~dvd~Vogelod+Castle:+Collector%B4s+Special+Edition.htm]Vogelöd [/url][/quote:84203d9a52]
To be frank on a long list of silents I want see released these two are pretty much among the last ones. If there wasn't the name Murnau attached to it nobody would even bother to dig them up in an archive for viewing.

I somehow fear you are right, Schreck said something similar in the Alpha thread, though he didn't dismiss them as much as you do. What I find important in these releases is that they enable a wider audience to get a more complete picture of Murnau, which - if these films are indeed not good - then probably needs a bit of revision. I guess in general perception, Murnau is more or less THE epitome of (German) silent filmmaking, a half-mythical creature almost (and certainly not undeserved if one thinks of his acclaimed masterpieces). Of course I would also have preferred to get some Grune, Wiene or Pick, but at least we get the chance to see two pretty unknown German silents in any case, and probably lovingly restored by FWMS.

And it's good to see that divisa finally release something again, as in their early days, that isn't already out in other and sometimes better versions elsewhere. If I look at their releases in the past two years, they only put out their own versions of things like the Transit Lubitsch films, Renoir's "Nana" and so on, and I had almost given up on them.

What's most striking about both is the almost complete lack of what I'd call "narrative visual poetry" from the images. Murnau could load an image to the bursting point-- though of course he was far more precise yet natural, rather than screaming at the top of his lungs-- with visual poetry of great complexity and ambiguity that rendered the text in compliment to his title cards. So rich, so masterly, and so (at times) sinister... these films pretty much photograph the action in a straightforward way, capturing (albeit in a photographically beautiful way) the actors and backdrops as the narrative unfolds; but that's about the extent of it. Whats most striking is that this is between the years 22-24, where his genius was ratcheting up to full-bore.

[i:05637984e8]Vogelod [/i:05637984e8]is a thriller along the lines of the old dark house plays that were being translated to film and were all the rage at the time, peaking with The Cat and the Canary by Leni.. where there's a surprise ending, and the "monster" is usually some dude in disguise trying to hustle some relation out of will money or something (not the case here, though there is a surprise ending) who gets busted in the end. There's a nice sequence of expressively rendered dream sequences, with one of The Frightened Gentleman (which is reproduced endlessly in docs and on Kino disc "excerpts") subject to a giant hairy arm reaching in the window to pull him out of the house being particularly eerie.

It's great that these are coming out, but if MoC do release more than "Phantom" then I hope it will be "Der Brennende Acker", a real Murnau masterpiece.
I would love to replace the, quite decent, bootleg of this.

[quote:f3507fb22c="Tommaso"]Of course I would also have preferred to get some Grune, Wiene or Pick, but at least we get the chance to see two pretty unknown German silents in any case, and probably lovingly restored by FWMS.

And it's good to see that divisa finally release something again, as in their early days, that isn't already out in other and sometimes better versions elsewhere.[/quote:f3507fb22c]
Well, they sell in Spain or France 5-6 times the amount of DVDs compared to Germany, where else should they be released? Surely not in their home country where you can't even buy CALIGARI ...

Nevertheless I find it astonishing that the value of star actors or directors of ages long ago still is a ruling factor and therefore lesser films by big names get releases while better films by unknown directors remain in their archive graves. Among the roughly 500 silent features I've seen VOGELÖD is in the lowest 100. I somehow wonder if it wouldn't be possible to generate a European classics label funded by the EU to release less known classics selected by knowledgeable experts.

Don't get me wrong I order these films the day they are out in order to replace my mediocre (Vogelöd) and truly bad (Finanzen) recordings. Nevertheless SCHERBEN, HINTERTREPPE or RASKOLNIKOW would be far more desirable films. At least Edition Filmmuseum will release VON MORGENS BIS MITTERNACHTS which will surely make some people rethink CALIGARI's greatness.

[quote:a52f8c6c00="lubitsch"]Nevertheless SCHERBEN, HINTERTREPPE or RASKOLNIKOW would be far more desirable films. At least Edition Filmmuseum will release VON MORGENS BIS MITTERNACHTS which will surely make some people rethink CALIGARI's greatness.[/quote:a52f8c6c00]
I'd agree on everything but the last statement. I think MORGENS is a mere curiosity, with no sense of mise en scene whatsoever-- or connection of the story to the expressionist art direction, which comes off as mere experimental decor. It is a very stagey piece, with very little connection to the possibilities of the cinema... whereas Caligari to me is as utterly vital today as it was when it was made, and perhaps even more haunting.

I'd put Genuine over MORGENS, which reminds me a bit of TORGUS, with strictly decorative Expressionism with very little subjective interplay between the text and the visual design..

Yes, sigh... do you mean "5-6 times the amount" with reference to silent films or dvds in general, though? And if this only applies to silents, how come that the Spanish have such a huge interest. I mean, I've never seen a Spanish silent film, for instance, and wonder whether there are many of them. But of course anyone wanting to see these films desperately will buy them regardless where they come from, and so of course I could imagine divisa selling a lot of their discs abroad.


In a way, Edition Filmmuseum is such a label, though not EU funded, I believe. And of course they take ages to release the things they announce. ... sigh again...

Anyway, back to topic: Well, much as I hate that these Spanish e-tailers always send their stuff via courier (terribly expensive), at least it's fast, though this time even faster than Kimi Raikonen.... I received "Vogelöd" and "Großherzog" this afternoon, one day after ordering.

I have just finished watching "Vogelöd", and I have to agree with Lubitsch and Schreck on the merits of the film, i.e. it's not exactly great (to put it mildly), though if you for a moment forget this was made by Murnau, I can't really say that it didn't entertain me. Although it's completely conventional for the most part and is a typical 'Kolportage'-kind of film, I actually quite enjoyed a lot of it. Murnau already has a good sense of blocking and visual composition, and some few shots (like that creeping monster hand coming through the window) look terrific for the time. I also liked the slightly 'gothic' look (in the 80s sense!) of Olga Tschechowa, but that's hardly unusual, neither for me nor the time the film was made. The problem with the film seems to be that it can never really decide what it wants to be: is this a crime film, a horror story, a comedy spoof? It's all of these, of course, but the blending of themes and genres is far less successful than in "Cat and the Canary" indeed. Still, I have to repeat it, I found it well wortb seeing, and the pleasure was greatly helped by the glorious resto that FWMS have provided. Honestly, even if you look closely, you will have a hard time finding any significant nicks , dirt and other such usual abnormalities in this. Very natural looking tintings on top of it. This simply looks unbelievably good for a 1921 film, basically on a par with the new "Nosferatu" resto, and of course with a very servicable piano score by Neil Brandt.

As to the disc itself: MAN, HAVE DIVISA IMPROVED! I wasn't exactly happy with some of their earlier discs ("Frau im Mond" suffered from badly rendered grain and unsharpness compared to the MoC, and their "Nibelungen", while serviceable as the only version with German titles, could have been better as well), but here they delivered a truly fine job. The disc is double-layered (7,59 gigs) although the cover states otherwise, and the bitrate is extremely high (between 8.5 and 9.2. kbps in the few moments I checked), and it does full justice to the quality of the restoration. Extremely sharp and detailed image, no edge enhancement or other artefacting (though I spotted some very, very mild chroma in one or two shots, but this may well be due to my player, which seems to be prone to exhibit it more than other players). And it doesn't end here: whereas most of the older divisa discs only had meagre text screens in Spanish as extras, we here get another installment of the Luciano Beriatua docus on Murnau (two parts of which are on MoC's "Nosferatu" and "Tabu", of course), this time dealing with Murnau's early films in the usual highly informative manner (and the few excerpts from "Der brennende Acker" really made me wonder why divisa didn't release THAT one instead of this), including some stills from Murnau's lost film "Die Austreibung" (fascinating).
So, all in all: I'm really happy to have bought this, and can't imagine that anyone interested in German silents would not at least find something in it to enjoy (sorry, Lubitsch). The only shortcoming is that there are, as usual with divisa, no English subs. But if you understand either German, Spanish or Portuguese: highly recommended! I can't imagine that an MoC disc of this would be significantly better apart from the non-existing booklet here, and I'd say, that means something.

Finally, some scaled-down screen caps to give you an idea, though I find that the whole thing even looks better (much sharper!) in motion.
I'll report back on "Großherzog" soon.

The rather lukewarm reception of [b:54a7daa140]Schloss Vogelod[/b:54a7daa140] is shared by Lotte Eisner in "Murnau".

[quote:54a7daa140="Lotte Eisner"] In [i:54a7daa140]Schloss Vogelod[/i:54a7daa140] we are face to face with the 'other' Murnau, the Murnau of [i:54a7daa140]Die Finanzen[/i:54a7daa140], the rather naive epilogue to [i:54a7daa140]The Last Laugh[/i:54a7daa140], or the absurd Luna Park gags in [i:54a7daa140]Sunrise[/i:54a7daa140]. As all his friends tell us, Murnau could be shy, sensitive, and melancholy. But he could also suddenly be as gay and mischievous as a schoolboy. Such is the double face of [i:54a7daa140]Schloss Vogelod[/i:54a7daa140].[/quote:54a7daa140]
I haven't yet seen it myself and I think I would need English subtitles to do so. Maybe I'll get the Alpha dvd in spite of its likely quality.

Oooh, Eisner has guts even trying to compare "Vogelöd" with the end of "Last Laugh" or anything in "Sunrise"! It's obvious that "Vogelöd"'s 'tone' is different from the sensitive and personal feeling of his acclaimed films, but seeing it as an example of a 'different' Murnau who in her view surfaces again and again in his later works heaps too much praise on the film. "Vogelöd" isn't bad and mostly even enjoyable, but it's a completely run-of-the-mill early 20s silent with occasional glimpses of inspiration. The fact that it comes from Murnau makes it interesting, if only to round off our picture, but it shares very little with his famous films (quite unlike the equally little known "Phantom").

Yes, it's true that Eisner manages to find something in even the early, run of the mill stuff. But she is so good on the great works, that I find her indulgences endearing.

By the way, Tommasso, do you think it's worth my getting the Alpha dvd? The Divisa Red would be no good to me, as I think [b:4757c6e514]Vogelod[/b:4757c6e514] has plenty of intertitles.

Fabulous restoration! Wonderful looking caps!

Your sentiments about the film pretty much echo my own-- it's not without interest or entertainment (I'd lie if I said I only watched it once and chucked it aside forever... I've watched the film all the way thru at least 5 or six times over the past 7 or 8 yrs or so since I've owned the Film Annex VHS), but again, it lacks the assuredness and narrative "identity", if you know what I mean, of Leni's treatment of similar material in Cat and the Canary. What it does have, aside from trademark dream-sequences, to clue you in that it is Murnau, is the stone seriousness of the faces (Orlok's makeup in NOS, the husband's face prior to the aborted murder in SUNRISE, FAUST himself, etc), particularly of Oetsch, and the lead actress. There is a certainly solemnity in Murnaus actors that plays off of the other emotional nuances in his texts that is quite striking and unique.. as bleak as a barren rocky field on a cloudy grey November.

But again, despite some nice work by Wagner (was the man capable of anything else?), the images lack the loaded depth of Murnaus best works.

On the discs themselves, I'll probably hold out for the inevitable Kinos.

No idea yet. I ordered the Alpha before I learned about the existence of the divisa, but it hasn't arrived yet. I will have a quick look at it once it's there, but I am certain it will be a far cry from the divisa, not least because it will not feature that glorious new resto. And yes, "Vogelöd" has a lot of intertitles, sometimes used/phrased to a slightly ironic effect (the initial constant complaints about the weather, for example), which is probably hard to recreate in a translation, anyway. Somewhat similar to the special tone of the titles in Lubitsch's Berlin films, though not as hilariously funny.


Absolutely, though the Berriatua piece points out (rightly in my view) that "Vogelöd" especially was very much influenced by Scandinavian cinema, and Berriatua specifically references Stiller and Christensen. Now there's where the solemnity in this film probably comes from, though I'd always admit that they are trademark Murnau features as well; but in contrast to later films, this seriousness sometimes is a bit wooden here.


Yes, though for the most part they are truly beautiful to behold. I only wished the dream sequences and the long flashback sequence would have been a little longer. These are clearly the most visually striking bits in the film.

And Tojoed, before you jump on the Alpha, I guess Schreck is right to assume this will come from Kino any time soon. The long trailer sequence on their "Nosferatu" should be an indication for this. I hope they get along to do "Acker" and "Gang in die Nacht" as well, if divisa won't do these, too.

Thanks Tommasso. I'll definitely heed Herr Schreck's word and wait for Kino or maybe MoC.

Now on to "Grossherzog": if it is at all possible, the film might be even less characteristic for Murnau than "Vogelöd", being a light satiric comedy much in the vein of Lubitsch (though rather reminiscent of the later Chevalier musicals than the Berlin films) about the fortunes and misfortunes of an Archduke of a non-existent mini-state somewhere in the Mediterranean. While the subject matter is rather forgettable, the film itself is not. And this is largely due to the extraordinary photography by Karl Freund, who – without doing much experimentation a la "Der letzte Mann" – produces one memorable shot after another, greatly helped by the magnificent set designs by Rochus Gliese and wonderful outdoor settings filmed in Yugoslavia. This was an expensive (and successful) production, and it shows. Acting is much better than in "Vogelöd" as well, with Harry Liedtke as a nice happy-go-lucky duke and Alfred Abel as a would-be trickster deserving special mention. The film all in all feels much more assured than "Vogelöd", and has a nice natural flow to it. If you must look for specific Murnau traces and themes, you will find little apart from the scenes at the beginning where Liedtke watches some boys bathing and having fun in the Mediterranean; these shots almost seem like a pre-echo of "Tabu", and perhaps are also due to Murnau's gay sensibilities. And of the course the scenes set in the city with its cafes and bustling streets might be compared to "Der letzte Mann". All in all, not a film to rave about, but surely a nice and enjoyable bit of silent film entertainment. I really liked it.

The disc this time is only single-layered, with a bitrate between 4.5 and 5.0 kpbs, but it really doesn't seem to matter. This is a fine transfer, detailed and reasonably sharp, nothing wrong with it. That the quality is certainly inferior to "Vogelöd" is rather due to the elements (cobbled together from various prints instead of the restorators having been able to use the original neg, as was the case with "Vogelöd" for the most part) and the fact that this resto was already made way back in 1994. But the restorators did a fine job: nice tintings all around, and although there's a little bit of damage and some frame wobble in the first reel, absolutely nothing unusual for a film that old. Very good piano score by Ekkehard Wölk, too. Extras include the same Berriatua documentary that is also on the "Vogelöd" disc, and divisa's usual Spanish text screens and a small gallery.

Finally, again some caps:

I'm surprised you didn't mention the fact that this is a rare opportunity to see the real Herr Schreck in a part other than [i:c6c4314408]Nosferatu[/i:c6c4314408]. He's in there, you know, as one of the schemers... aside from this and [i:c6c4314408]Die Strasse[/i:c6c4314408], that's about all that remains of our fine fellow Max.

Yes, I know. But the real Schreck's role in the film is so small that I wouldn't even have noticed if it hadn't been written as a major advertisement in the cover text. Interesting that you write that this apart from "Die Straße" and of course "Nosferatu" should be "about all" still in existence. German Wikipedia has a fairly extensive list of films in which he played, among which are Ophüls' "Verkaufte Braut" and Dieterle's "Ludwig der Zweite". At least the latter should still exist, it was announced by Filmmuseum for release any time not so soon. Admittedly, I've never even heard the names of most of the other films in that list.