UHD Titles Worth/Not Worth Upgrading

[nicolas]

tone-mapped shots of the CC BD and CC 4k of Days of Heaven

left and right arrows to toggle the comparisons, up and down for additional captures

Btw, fkid on BR.com said the HDR10 is great but the Dolby Vision was done with static global values for brightness.

Thank you so much for sharing these. I can't believe how beautiful these caps look. Reading Chris' was something special but this is next level.
From the grading, to the framing, encode and likely the sound too when hearing that the new 5.1 was taken from the old 4-track stereo tapes.
Someone at Criterion really wanted this to look good and I'm so thankful for it.

[tenia]

Glad to see stuff like the fourth capture finally putting to rest the fact that yes, the older BD was artificially sharpened, and no, it's wasn't Mackie lines-type effects.
(the encode looks perfectible, though)

[nicolas]

I have some great news to share. Capelight’s Ronin UHD is phenomenal and improves on the Kino more noticeably than I thought.

This is certainly another LSP encode, the second in a row and therefore the second accomplished one for Capelight as well. This seems to be a new trend and I’m all in for it.

LSP tightened up the grain in all areas of concern on the Kino, namely highlights. In DV, the Kino never looks really bad but when watching the film I always felt where things were very close to collapsing. None of this is a problem on the Capelight.
Compared to that, the Kino UHD looks slightly filtered and less detailed despite their authoring house actually doing a very good job on that film compared to others which fared significantly worse.

The 4K restoration and HDR / DV grades appear exactly the same (949 nits), as does the audio in 5.1. In this case, I assume the 2.0 is a downmix as the film was surely finished in 5.1. I wish I could give a definitive answer but I’m lacking the knowledge here.

The discs are fully English friendly with a German / English menu screen up front.

Bonus features are identical to the Kino except for the Close-Up interview with DP Robert Fraisse. I’ve noticed something strange with the bonus disc though: On my Panasonic player, I could not press OK on the language selection menu, neither the German nor English button. I have an old Sony Region A player where it worked flawlessly.
However on the Panasonic, I was able to access the bonus features by performing the stop and top menu trick. I’ll definitely report this irregularity to Capelight though.

Other than that, this appears to be a flawless disc. Can’t wait for their other upcoming MGM titles.

[Finch]

More comments trickling in about Shout's Point Break 4k: the Fox logo is missing though you can hear the drums for a few seconds before the next logo comes on; the 5.1 audio appears to be a new mix that quite a few users seem to like less than the old 5.1 (though the old mix doesn't have much LFE either) and the 2.0 sounds like it's a downmix. The 4.0 track from the old Fox BD is not included.

one shot comparison between 2013 BD and 4k

[Finch]

Mean Streets (based on Chris's review) audio on the Criterion 4k actually fairly decent as per this blogger

[nicolas]

Based on some assessment on the other forum and my impression of the 4K-restored BD, I tempered my expectations for the new Pathé UHD of Le Samourai. I’ve now got my collector’s set and to my great surprise the 4K is FAR better than what’s been said. I’ll claim that this is the best French UHD encode for a catalogue title from a label that isn’t Carlotta. It’s every bit as impressive as what The Jokers have put out recently but I’d give Pathé a slight edge because of how perfect it looks in the often troubling areas like highlights. From what I’ve seen, the UHD has no problems there and retains a very fine, beautiful layer of grain throughout. I couldn’t detect any filtering.
It’s a gigantic improvement to all previous editions, including the Pathe BD which pales in comparison.

The only problem some might have may be the general lack of detail and definition in the source, although this is no fault of anyone working at this disc. When looking at the quality of this UHD, I’m very happy that they decided to do one based on the strengths of the format and not the amount of resolution.

Audio is rough but I can’t say whether that’s also source-based or due to filtering. I hope it’s the former.

Criterion need to work hard to match this quality particularly as the French disc has English subs. In the meantime, Pathé would be wise to issue a standard version now that the CE is generally sold out.

[kekid]

Based on some assessment on the other forum and my impression of the 4K-restored BD, I tempered my expectations for the new Pathé UHD of Le Samourai. I’ve now got my collector’s set and to my great surprise the 4K is FAR better than what’s been said. I’ll claim that this is the best French UHD encode for a catalogue title from a label that isn’t Carlotta. It’s every bit as impressive as what The Jokers have put out recently but I’d give Pathé a slight edge because of how perfect it looks in the often troubling areas like highlights. From what I’ve seen, the UHD has no problems there and retains a very fine, beautiful layer of grain throughout. I couldn’t detect any filtering.
It’s a gigantic improvement to all previous editions, including the Pathe BD which pales in comparison.

The only problem some might have may be the general lack of detail and definition in the source, although this is no fault of anyone working at this disc. When looking at the quality of this UHD, I’m very happy that they decided to do one based on the strengths of the format and not the amount of resolution.

Audio is rough but I can’t say whether that’s also source-based or due to filtering. I hope it’s the former.

Criterion need to work hard to match this quality particularly as the French disc has English subs. In the meantime, Pathé would be wise to issue a standard version now that the CE is generally sold out.

Does the collector's edition of le Samourai have the same color palette as the Criterion Blu Ray (teal-leaning), or is it closer to the original René Chateau dvd? If the colors still show the teal look, no matter how fine the grain etc. it is of little value to me. On the other hand, if it brings the color palette closer to the original, that is a cause for celebration.

[nicolas]

Based on some assessment on the other forum and my impression of the 4K-restored BD, I tempered my expectations for the new Pathé UHD of Le Samourai. I’ve now got my collector’s set and to my great surprise the 4K is FAR better than what’s been said. I’ll claim that this is the best French UHD encode for a catalogue title from a label that isn’t Carlotta. It’s every bit as impressive as what The Jokers have put out recently but I’d give Pathé a slight edge because of how perfect it looks in the often troubling areas like highlights. From what I’ve seen, the UHD has no problems there and retains a very fine, beautiful layer of grain throughout. I couldn’t detect any filtering.
It’s a gigantic improvement to all previous editions, including the Pathe BD which pales in comparison.

The only problem some might have may be the general lack of detail and definition in the source, although this is no fault of anyone working at this disc. When looking at the quality of this UHD, I’m very happy that they decided to do one based on the strengths of the format and not the amount of resolution.

Audio is rough but I can’t say whether that’s also source-based or due to filtering. I hope it’s the former.

Criterion need to work hard to match this quality particularly as the French disc has English subs. In the meantime, Pathé would be wise to issue a standard version now that the CE is generally sold out.

Does the collector's edition of le Samourai have the same color palette as the Criterion Blu Ray (teal-leaning), or is it closer to the original René Chateau dvd? If the colors still show the teal look, no matter how fine the grain etc. it is of little value to me. On the other hand, if it brings the color palette closer to the original, that is a cause for celebration.

I’ll link you to tenia’s review as he provided screenshots: https://testsbluray.com/2023/11/07/test ... urai-2023/

Teal is such a subjective thing - some are more sensitive than others. I personally love the look of the new UHD and dislike the anemic Criterion grade immensely. I never owned any DVD of the film, so can’t comment on that.

[tenia]

It's clearly different than the old René chateau and the Criterion (which is rather dull and DVD-era-like). It's close to the 2011 restoration except the blue tint is pretty much gone for something more nuanced.

I doubt the RC and Criterion gradings were faithful. They look first and foremost like what gradings were done fro video 25 years ago, so you're trading what might be wrong for something that most likely is.

[MichaelB]

When it comes to Melville, I'd be very wary of slamming a release because of an alleged "teal lean", given Melville's own amply-documented fondness for colour schemes leaning in that direction.

And those caps are pretty close to my memories of first seeing the film in 35mm thirty-odd years ago.

[tenia]

To be fair, the older presentations look like DVD-era "video" masters, the 2011 Pathé restoration looks way too digital in its grading (and I heard horrific BTS about it), and the new 2023 one is very close to the 2011 one with only the blue sheen removed and a bit more nuances in the contrast.
I think the latest grading is the most convincing but all 4 could very well be different shades of wrong.

[Finch]

Can anyone here comment on the Titanic UHD and the 4k streaming version of The Abyss? Going by the comments on BR.com, Cameron reduced the grain and used sharpening and AI tools to make both films look like they'd been shot with digital equipment instead of 1997 and 1989 cameras. If that turns out to be true, I'm kind of glad that I'm not a fan of his work post-1984 Terminator (though I doubt that MGM would do a 4k restoration without Cameron supervising or at least approving, so I expect T1 to get the same treatment as Aliens, Abyss, True Lies and Titanic). Peter Jackson also seems to feel the need to tinker with the look of his older films, so I have no hope for a 4k restoration of Heavenly Creatures with the grain fully intact.

[nicolas]

Can anyone here comment on the Titanic UHD and the 4k streaming version of The Abyss? Going by the comments on BR.com, Cameron reduced the grain and used sharpening and AI tools to make both films look like they'd been shot with digital equipment instead of 1997 and 1989 cameras. If that turns out to be true, I'm kind of glad that I'm not a fan of his work post-1984 Terminator (though I doubt that MGM would do a 4k restoration without Cameron supervising or at least approving, so I expect T1 to get the same treatment as Aliens, Abyss, True Lies and Titanic). Peter Jackson also seems to feel the need to tinker with the look of his older films, so I have no hope for a 4k restoration of Heavenly Creatures with the grain fully intact.

Ironically, Cameron even used some of Jackson’s “revolutionary” technology in these restorations. I forgot in how far and where exactly but it’s ultimately irrelevant when we have these outcomes. The three films may look better than T2 and I’m actually expecting them to be serviceable presentations but obviously far from ideal. I personally have a bigger problem with Cameron using the Titanic opportunity to add / “correct” VFX where they weren’t at the time (they apparently had one scene with a blue screen still intact after all those years) as well as an incorrect star constellation in Titanic. This is what we heard so far, I wouldn’t be surprised if people discover more once everybody gets their UHD.

Re. Jackson - The Turbine restoration of The Frighteners looks quite good and was approved by him, but only after all work was done in Germany. Wise decision to not involve him earlier. If the other films have his involvement from the beginning, it will be a disaster. I still couldn’t bring myself to watch Get Back although I’m a big Beatles fan.

[onedimension]

Peter Jackson's the big mainstream holdout after Cameron. How many years will it be before I can see Meet The Feebles in ultra high-def

[tenia]

From what I saw of Titanic's UHD, it definitely looks sharpened grain managed AI upscaled, and I wish a sharpened grain managed AI upscaled remaster get the flak it deserves from "pro" reviewers instead of the blissful praise they're mostly giving it.

[jheez]

I have to agree about Titanic. I am shocked how bad it looks. And all the reviews are giving it perfect scores and praise. It's obviously not American Graffiti (which is completely horrendous and basically unwatchable), but Titanic is surely disappointing. If Indicator's OCN Rollin 4Ks are a 5/5 and American Graffiti is a 0/5, this is like 1.5/5.

[nicolas]

Bad, bad news from our friends at the best label in the world. Stalag 17 in 4K is the new Walkabout, now in black and white. To be honest, I had a suspicious feeling when I read all the positive reactions so far, after all Kino changed their authoring house and the rest is history. But even a solid, standard encode of this film on a BD-100 with the narrow 1.37:1 aspect ratio could be achievable by the laziest authoring house, so I wasn’t all pessimistic.

I’m not sure whether I should laugh or rage about it now. It’s a horrendous encode. If you followed the Walkabout debacle (which I believe I brought into roll as there were literally no critical takes on that release before I bought and put in my disc), this is exactly the same. The underlying master, sourced from the OCN (I read somewhere that it was considered lost) is of astonishing beauty and detail devoid of Paramount’s DNR & smear. The waiting period between the UHD’s announcement and release pretty much guarantees that KL did the master themselves compared to their quickly released, ready-made UHDs, such as the upcoming The Last Castle and Gunfight at the O.K. Corral.

You can see the beauty of the master everywhere where no sky or larger grey areas are visible. Dolby Vision doesn’t help there, this is a hopelessly truncated encode. I may get some screenshots up on BR.com in order to make people aware of the issue. In short, if you didn’t notice any issues with Walkabout, you won’t notice anything here and it’ll be one of the greatest UHDs for you. Otherwise, we can only hope that the Paramount dam breaks in Europe one day and they’ll start licensing their films to other labels like MGM now.

The included BD is also from the new master but no help either. It’s the same authoring house, as Tarzi said. What’s interesting for me (I never bothered to compare) is how aggressively they filter their masters for their BD releases. If I didn’t know that this was indeed a 4K OCN master, I’d have said it’s clearly an older one. The BD therefore has the same shortcomings but due to the general filtering across the entire master, the encoding issues don’t render as visible as on the UHD. It’s a pick your poison situation but I’d definitely go with the UHD as there’s at least no permanent filtering and quite the astonishing detail when the encode holds up.

[dwk]

Is the master on the Stalag 17 Blu-ray really from the 4K master? I recall they claimed their Blu-ray of Mad Max was from the new 4K master but it was actually the same older master used by Shout and MGM for their earleir Blu-rays.

[nicolas]

Is the master on the Stalag 17 Blu-ray really from the 4K master? I recall they claimed their Blu-ray of Mad Max was from the new 4K master but it was actually the same older master used by Shout and MGM for their earleir Blu-rays.

https://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=33213
They claimed it here as well and I think it’s the new master. I don’t have an older BD but the new BD encode exhibits the same shortcomings as the 4K one.

[tenia]

I have to agree about Titanic. I am shocked how bad it looks. And all the reviews are giving it perfect scores and praise. It's obviously not American Graffiti (which is completely horrendous and basically unwatchable), but Titanic is surely disappointing. If Indicator's OCN Rollin 4Ks are a 5/5 and American Graffiti is a 0/5, this is like 1.5/5.

It keeps making me think how old-school reviewers are now clearly out-of-touch with video releases' merits, and how most have become obsolete since they're that often that inaccurate. It still bothers me to point it, because I wish they weren't that unreliable, but if these people are not more useful that a random Amazon comment, they should stop doing tech reports. Nobody needs experienced reviewers to see a beautiful disc is beautiful and an awful one is awful : we need them for difficult cases like Titanic. But they clearly don't know how to properly assess these, so what's their use nowadays if they can't provide a specifically experienced view that AverageAmazonJoe doesn't have ?

To add on the issue, they still have a sizable readership (and almost a cult-like one at that), plus probably some voice within the industry, and if they can't see the issues here, it means their readers will get (and probably later spread) incorrect infos, and the industry will think what has been done here is perfectly fine when it's not.

[ianthemovie]

Does anyone happen to know whether corrected copies of Rosemary's Baby are now for sale, and if so how to identify them?

[nicolas]

Does anyone happen to know whether corrected copies of Rosemary's Baby are now for sale, and if so how to identify them?

I haven’t heard anything from Paramount after they announced their replacement program, so it may still take more time. Based on a post on the other forum, Paramount have updated the digital version though, reinstating the Saperstein line but omitting the fantastics one.

[dwk]

Is the master on the Stalag 17 Blu-ray really from the 4K master? I recall they claimed their Blu-ray of Mad Max was from the new 4K master but it was actually the same older master used by Shout and MGM for their earleir Blu-rays.

https://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=33213
They claimed it here as well and I think it’s the new master. I don’t have an older BD but the new BD encode exhibits the same shortcomings as the 4K one.

Thanks. I guess it really doesn't matter, 'cause even if they used the older master they wouldn't offer a replacement. (With Mad Max, they went back and edited their social media to erase the mention of the Blu-ray being from the new 4K master.)

[nicolas]

I received the French UHD of Love / Shite Actually and have some generally good news to share. It’s undoubtedly the best presentation of the film but it’s no FiM or Visual Data encode, meaning SC broke their rule of letting the restoration house do the encoding. This is a very typical SC French encode made by one of their incompetent folks in France that ruined their Godard UHDs for instance. But it’s not all bad, this is actually one of their (the authoring house) best encodes.

Yes, the film looks very good on this UHD with barely (if any) of the issues the Universal UHD has. OCN shots have fantastic detail, grain is present and doesn’t seem managed (likely all an encoding problem on the Universal). The opticals, which seem to include most of the Colin Firth storyline, are rougher but speaking just from the image alone, I think Richard Curtis and co. left these alone throughout. Opticals have always been a cause of concern for SC and this particular authoring house by setting ridiculously low bitrates for these segments, making them appear even worse than they are. This is almost the case here as well but not quite as heavy, which does help enormously. For instance, the Godard films have these opticals generally in the single digits and Love Actually around 25 to 30, although they plummet to the single digits for brief, almost invisible moments too.

Another problem for pixel-peeping people like me are mismanaged highlights, which affect bright areas, sunlit buildings, lamps, skies etc. Grain is effectively clipped there due to the encode as well. This is a bigger problem if the film stock is more grainy but in this case, from what I’ve seen just now, Curtis and his DP Michael Coulter used a slower, fine-grain stock for the exteriors and some interiors as well, such as the film shoot with Martin Freeman. You therefore don’t see the issues as much. But again, this is more relevant for the pixel-peeping crowd than more casual viewers.

For more casual viewers, this is a revelatory presentation and easily the best the film has ever looked. Good colors, grain and a pleasing image. Many people on here likely don’t see any issues, which is okay and I’m glad something better is available.

A few more important information about on-screen texts and subtitles. The French subtitles are forced when you select English audio, meaning you can only remove them by lowering them out of frame if your player supports it. (The Panasonic players do). Portuguese subtitles during the Colin Firth storyline are removed (but they still used the optically processed shots during these sequences - I wonder whether the textless OCN was thrown away at the time) BUT other on-screen text like "3 weeks to Christmas" is still present and in English! SC not translating them into French should be a cause for celebration.

Non-French viewers therefore need to add external subtitles to their disc.

On a side note, I also tested the included BD (which did not play on my Panasonic Region B player, only on my PlayStation) and it shares the shortcomings of the UHD. The new master is also on there.

[Finch]

Screenshots of the True Lies 4k stream have popped up on the film's BR thread. Some of those look especially hideous. Honestly expecting the worst for a future resto of T1.

A user watched the Aliens stream and confirmed that it has issues too, mainly with the cast's faces, but it's apparently not as severe as True Lies or Titanic.