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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:04 pm 
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Lost Highway wrote:
The way things are going in the US I’m not as optimistic as you are that Get Out won’t still be relevant in the future. Apart from that, where is the rule that a film has to be a timeless classic ? A film that speaks to our times intelligently may be needed more than now one than one whose issues and values are timeless. The canon of film history will reward those films, but awards can be about now.

I wouldn’t argue that The Stepford Wives is in any way as good a film as Get Out, but it’s the closest comparison I can think of. Don’t we still recongnise the issues it dealt with in terms of feminism and the patriarchy controlling women ?

I agree that Get Out isn’t especially artful in its direction and there were more admireable films out in that regard in 2017. But I love what it does politically, how it does it and how it managed to reach a large audience.

A few different issues here:

1) "The way things are going" could make Get Out less relevant, and not more. Contrary to what you imply here (and mfunk implies in his post immediately preceeding yours), I don't think the film is about the breakdown of or lack of progress with race relations. Just the opposite, it's a satire of the way that black people and white people are integrating, and more precisely, the anxieties that black people have about that. Race relations were even worse in the 1960s, but a film with Get Out's point of view would have seemed utterly ludicrous then, when white culture and black culture were much more wholly segregated. In a way, this movie is in itself a sign of progress.

To be clear, what I'm saying isn't so simple-minded as 'this film will cease to be relevant as soon as this country has its racial kumbaya moment.' That would be stupid. But even within the context of race relations, the conversations change and new perspectives emerge.

2) Certainly I never said that there's a rule that a film has to be a timeless classic. I was just arguing with the assertion that this one obviously is.

3) Your point about The Stepford Wives is interesting, because in my experience that's actually not a film that's widely discussed and seems almost entirely forgotten by anyone younger than me (I'm 39). I still hear the term "Stepford wife" from time to time, but as far as I can remember it's exclusively as a slur against a certain kind of woman (typically politicians' wives). So to answer your question, no, I think we largely don't "recognise the issues it dealt with," but others' experiences may vary on this point.

mfunk9786 wrote:
Re: Get Out - the issues it explores are going to continue to change and evolve, but it will remain prescient for this time period, and when this (by any measure difficult) time period is being discussed, that film will likely be part of the discussion. And considering that race relations never seem to be progressing as far as we all like to think they are in any given era, unfortunately something like this will probably have real-time legs longer than we'd like it to, as well.

Maybe! But it's simply impossible for you to know this with any certainty stronger than a coin flip. And like a coin flip, you're just guessing.


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:21 pm 
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No speculation on the forum - got it. Let me know if we should make any other adjustments.


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:21 pm 
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Brian C wrote:
Lost Highway wrote:
The way things are going in the US I’m not as optimistic as you are that Get Out won’t still be relevant in the future. Apart from that, where is the rule that a film has to be a timeless classic ? A film that speaks to our times intelligently may be needed more than now one than one whose issues and values are timeless. The canon of film history will reward those films, but awards can be about now.

I wouldn’t argue that The Stepford Wives is in any way as good a film as Get Out, but it’s the closest comparison I can think of. Don’t we still recongnise the issues it dealt with in terms of feminism and the patriarchy controlling women ?

I agree that Get Out isn’t especially artful in its direction and there were more admireable films out in that regard in 2017. But I love what it does politically, how it does it and how it managed to reach a large audience.

A few different issues here:

1) "The way things are going" could make Get Out less relevant, and not more. Contrary to what you imply here (and mfunk implies in his post immediately preceeding yours), I don't think the film is about the breakdown of or lack of progress with race relations. Just the opposite, it's a satire of the way that black people and white people are integrating, and more precisely, the anxieties that black people have about that. Race relations were even worse in the 1960s, but a film with Get Out's point of view would have seemed utterly ludicrous then, when white culture and black culture were much more wholly segregated. In a way, this movie is in itself a sign of progress.

To be clear, what I'm saying isn't so simple-minded as 'this film will cease to be relevant as soon as this country has its racial kumbaya moment.' That would be stupid. But even within the context of race relations, the conversations change and new perspectives emerge.

2) Certainly I never said that there's a rule that a film has to be a timeless classic. I was just arguing with the assertion that this one obviously is.

3) Your point about The Stepford Wives is interesting, because in my experience that's actually not a film that's widely discussed and seems almost entirely forgotten by anyone younger than me (I'm 39). I still hear the term "Stepford wife" from time to time, but as far as I can remember it's exclusively as a slur against a certain kind of woman (typically politicians' wives). So to answer your question, no, I think we largely don't "recognise the issues it dealt with," but others' experiences may vary on this point.

.


1. What I meant was that at this point things may not improve much from here in the foreseeable future. As we are playing the "I never said" game, I never implied things are going to get worse

2. See 1. I never asserted that Get Out is a timeless classic.

3. I wasn't talking about whether The Stepford Wives is remembered well now by a younger generation. I already hinted that it isn't a great film and in my experience most of the younger generation don't watch films older than a decade anyway. I was talking about that we still recognise the issues around feminism and sexism The Stepford Wives satirised when actually watching the film. Because things actually haven't changed that much for many women (also see 1.)


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:19 pm 

Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2011 11:00 pm
Lost Highway wrote:
Brian C wrote:
Lost Highway wrote:
The way things are going in the US I’m not as optimistic as you are that Get Out won’t still be relevant in the future. Apart from that, where is the rule that a film has to be a timeless classic ? A film that speaks to our times intelligently may be needed more than now one than one whose issues and values are timeless. The canon of film history will reward those films, but awards can be about now.

I wouldn’t argue that The Stepford Wives is in any way as good a film as Get Out, but it’s the closest comparison I can think of. Don’t we still recongnise the issues it dealt with in terms of feminism and the patriarchy controlling women ?

I agree that Get Out isn’t especially artful in its direction and there were more admireable films out in that regard in 2017. But I love what it does politically, how it does it and how it managed to reach a large audience.

A few different issues here:

1) "The way things are going" could make Get Out less relevant, and not more. Contrary to what you imply here (and mfunk implies in his post immediately preceeding yours), I don't think the film is about the breakdown of or lack of progress with race relations. Just the opposite, it's a satire of the way that black people and white people are integrating, and more precisely, the anxieties that black people have about that. Race relations were even worse in the 1960s, but a film with Get Out's point of view would have seemed utterly ludicrous then, when white culture and black culture were much more wholly segregated. In a way, this movie is in itself a sign of progress.

To be clear, what I'm saying isn't so simple-minded as 'this film will cease to be relevant as soon as this country has its racial kumbaya moment.' That would be stupid. But even within the context of race relations, the conversations change and new perspectives emerge.

2) Certainly I never said that there's a rule that a film has to be a timeless classic. I was just arguing with the assertion that this one obviously is.

3) Your point about The Stepford Wives is interesting, because in my experience that's actually not a film that's widely discussed and seems almost entirely forgotten by anyone younger than me (I'm 39). I still hear the term "Stepford wife" from time to time, but as far as I can remember it's exclusively as a slur against a certain kind of woman (typically politicians' wives). So to answer your question, no, I think we largely don't "recognise the issues it dealt with," but others' experiences may vary on this point.

.


1. What I meant was that at this point things may not improve much from here in the foreseeable future. As we are playing the "I never said" game, I never implied things are going to get worse

2. See 1. I never asserted that Get Out is a timeless classic.

3. I wasn't talking about whether The Stepford Wives is remembered well now by a younger generation. I already hinted that it isn't a great film and in my experience most of the younger generation don't watch films older than a decade anyway. I was talking about that we still recognise the issues around feminism and sexism The Stepford Wives satirised when actually watching the film. Because things actually haven't changed that much for many women (also see 1.)


When I first saw Get Out the first thing that jumped to my mind was the Stepford Wives connection. I pointed out the similarity between the two films to some of my friends who were really rapturous in their appraisal of Get Out, and none of them had seen the 70s film. Only one had seen the 2000s remake. The friends in question were all mid to late 20s.

It's too bad really, since I actually do think the original Stepford Wives is a great film, or at least I think it pulls off the genre film with a social message element better than Get Out did. I thought Get Out's twist ending worked in terms of being genuinely surprising, but it wasn't super coherent in terms of the message it was trying to put forward. Regardless of my feelings towards the two films, if the Stepford Wives is pretty much forgotten by young audiences 40 years on despite still having a socially relevant message, I'm not sure why Get Out would fare any better decades later.


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:01 am 
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Mark Harris on talking to Oscar voters


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:39 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:35 pm
The Writer's Guild nominations:

ORIGINAL SCREENPLAY:
The Big Sick
Get Out
I, Tonya
Lady Bird
The Shape of Water


(Three Billboards was ruled ineligible)

ADAPTED SCREENPLAY:
Call Me By Your Name
The Disaster Artist
Logan
Molly's Game
Mudbound


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:53 pm 

Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:47 pm
Location: Oxfordshire, UK
On the Original side, I live for a good snub of The Post whenever one should occur. I imagine many people here, you included, have issues with what replaced it though.

On the Adapted side, hey look it WGA's famous 'Buzzy superhero film of the year' pick to indicate a weak category.


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:10 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:54 pm
Location: Great Falls, Montana
Interesting to see Logan there as Adapted. It's more that it took some ideas from some comics (One specifically) and some Westerns. Perhaps I've missed something. (Unless we joke that it's a reowrking of Shane or something.)

I imagine Get Out will win for original.


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:14 pm 
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If it features anything fictional that has existed before in any capacity, it's adapted.


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:14 pm 
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I take it adapting a screenplay from your life doesn't count as an adapted screenplay?


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 3:34 pm 
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No more than how the Post would have been original, as was the King's Speech and Spotlight (unless you've already written it as a book or play or ever even considered doing that, as basically happened to Moonlight last year).


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:13 pm 
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Logan is inspired in the tiniest margin by the Old Man Logan comic. But other than Logan being old and tired of everyone's shit in a sort of dystopic future without a ton of other mutants (Mangold's is more of a corporate one than a wasteland) there really isn't much of a resemblance. That's really quite interesting to learn though Ribs thanks for filling me in on that. It certainly makes more sense now.


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:19 am 
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Ribs wrote:
Black Hat wrote:
mfunk9786 wrote:
If any film this year is likely going to have legs not based on its in-a-vacuum quality level but its cultural significance and likelihood to be, say, taught in schools as an example of the intersection of culture and art of this era, it's going to be Get Out. It's not the best film this year, but it's got quite a bit more to offer than being the "new hotness."
Well said. Outside of Star Wars, Blade Runner and maybe one or two other I'm forgetting right now it's the only that'll be remembered 10, 20 years from now.


I deeply resent this kind of specious argument that is literally impossible to agree upon. Firstly, because the notion of something becoming "forgotten" by culture is utterly ludicrous. Art doesn't need to aspire to this longterm cultural significance that you've put it against, because that goes above and beyond what its supposed to do, which is represent something now. I don't care how I'll feel in 2040. I can say, "no, American Made is what will really endure as opposed to that trash Blade Runner 2049." It's not actually an argument for anything - just me saying, no, I'm right, you'll realize I'm right down the line. There's a case to be made that Get Out does have particular significance to themes and ideas (socially and politically) that seem like they are going to play a large part in our collective culture going forward - but I'd also be more than happy to argue that The Great Wall also fulfills that criteria with considerably more subtlety (not the same themes, hopefully obviously, but several essential underlying ideas).

We do remember more than 5 movies each year. Just because you can't walk down the street and talk to every person about some obscure 80s Best Picture nominee (A Soldier's Story immediately comes to mind) doesn't mean it didn't mean anything to anybody and everyone's memory of it has totally absconded. Crash mattered just as much as Three Billboards matters just as much as Get Out matters just as much as Home Again matters. Get Out has a particular relevance right now, but please don't just write off almost every other film as potentially being irrelevant to future discourse when we have no idea where the conversation will be then.

This post is probably mostly nonsense I'm sorry, your post just really irked me the wrong way, I'm sorry if it comes across like I'm trying to swipe at you I'm not trying to!
No apology necessary. I quite liked reading your post and feel you raised a number of good points and fair questions.

The personal aspect of this ie my approach to thinking about movies, I'll say that for many years I more or less subscribed to your approach. I ultimately found it to be alienating, somewhat of a lonely island, wagging an angry finger mostly to air and to be honest with you it's what led me to find this place where I lurked for many years before finally signing up to post. This feeling of alienation left me frustrated, angry even. Over time I developed a good amount of contempt not so much for the film's themselves but for the way the culture, the audience would consume them. This 'what the fuck are people thinking' still occasionally comes out like say with Lady Bird. What's changed in me now is instead of being dismissive I try to engage with people, ask questions with the hope of maybe being able to see whatever it is I'm not seeing. Now to skip back in the timeline what precipitated this shift was at one point life began placing me in the company of a lot of smart people, people far smarter, much more knowledgable than me and to my surprise they would frame a lot of discussions in ways to quote you I had previously found to be 'utterly ludicrous'. To my surprise I found these discussions, this way of engaging with film illuminating and over time I began to view or try to see or predict even where art & culture would intersect and resonate. Moreover, I found it a lot less alienating and tons more fun. I found myself not only connecting to our batshit crazy culture more but also having something to say about it. To me talking about art isn't about having answers it's about raising questions and in my view whether I agree with them or not the best critics do that remarkably well. I know this isn't an approach a lot of members share, but that's cool and tho my writing style is acerbic, if not downright confrontational at times however I'm always trying to understand more, attempting to ask the right questions to accomplish that. Like you I'm not sure if my reply was coherent or some late night babbling but my response to you isn't meant to be a critique of how you look at things, but rather an attempt to explain why I look at things the way I do.


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:36 am 
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Brian C wrote:
mfunk9786 wrote:
Re: Get Out - the issues it explores are going to continue to change and evolve, but it will remain prescient for this time period, and when this (by any measure difficult) time period is being discussed, that film will likely be part of the discussion. And considering that race relations never seem to be progressing as far as we all like to think they are in any given era, unfortunately something like this will probably have real-time legs longer than we'd like it to, as well.

Maybe! But it's simply impossible for you to know this with any certainty stronger than a coin flip. And like a coin flip, you're just guessing.
I mean outside of what the last few centuries of history of told us how can we possibly go out on a limb predicting that race will continue to be a problem in twenty years.

This reminds me my initial in 'twenty years' comment was based on who this film resonated with the most, people under 40, 30, teenagers... these are people who in twenty years will be shaping our cultural conversation. The film will only grow in stature over that time, especially if it's followed by a number of films tackling similar issues in clever ways who accomplish this as Lost Highway said by making the medicine go down in a fun easy way.


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:15 am 
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DeParis wrote:
When I first saw Get Out the first thing that jumped to my mind was the Stepford Wives connection. I pointed out the similarity between the two films to some of my friends who were really rapturous in their appraisal of Get Out, and none of them had seen the 70s film. Only one had seen the 2000s remake. The friends in question were all mid to late 20s.

It's too bad really, since I actually do think the original Stepford Wives is a great film, or at least I think it pulls off the genre film with a social message element better than Get Out did. I thought Get Out's twist ending worked in terms of being genuinely surprising, but it wasn't super coherent in terms of the message it was trying to put forward. Regardless of my feelings towards the two films, if the Stepford Wives is pretty much forgotten by young audiences 40 years on despite still having a socially relevant message, I'm not sure why Get Out would fare any better decades later.


The Stepford Wives certainly feels like a blueprint for Get Out, down to the knowingly dopey mad scientist revelation. The Stepford Wives is an odd mix of effective social satire, which comes from the Ira Levin novel and dated 70s Laura Ashley style kitsch which is down to the compromises Bryan Forbes apparently imposed on William Goldman's screenplay. In Goldman's autobiographical Adventures in the Screen Trade, Goldman claims that he envisaged the wives as pneumatic Playboy bunnies. Then Forbes insisted on casting his wife Nanette Newman in the film. Newman was a couple of decades too old to fit the role of a sex bunny and as a result all the wives wore these prim neck to toe dresses. This doesn't quite make sense while the sexual revolution was in full swing and outside of a religions fundamentalist context, which the film never hits at. The final reveal of the Katherine Ross robot double still hints at the original sex bunny concept. Forbes also directs like this is a TV movies and while Get Out me not be the most stylish film of the year, its far better made than The Stepford Wives.

Again, as to The Stepford Wives not being remembered by young audiences, what old films do they know apart from the most famous ones. The Stepford Wives never became a classic for some of the reasons I mentioned. Rosemary's Baby, also based on a Levin novel and with a very similar plot, did because it's a far superior film in every respect. I'm not sure Get Out is quite on the same level but I would place it closer to the Polanski film than to the Bryan Forbes one.


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:27 am 
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Seconds was the film that jumped out at me while watching Get Out, at least when it came to ideas. I have not seen Stepford Wives, though, and I’d watched Seconds probably within a month.


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:29 am 
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Being John Malkovich


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:32 am 
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Indeed - Being John Malkovich was what I was thinking of for much of the 3rd act, particularly with the instructional video.


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:36 am 
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I personally don’t feel that one as strongly since it lacks the purely physical transformation (ie surgery), but you do raise an interesting point, whereas Seconds also employed an actual physical surgery for the metamorphosis to be complete instead of the idea of a puppet master. The latter seems more scary, but the former feels more complete, if that makes any sense.


Last edited by Morbii on Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:39 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:37 am 
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Yes, they aren't 1:1 analogs and I wouldn't accuse Get Out of ripping anything off, but the influences are loud and clear.


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:38 am 
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In both of those films the protagonists change into other bodies/identities by their own choice and the political dimension is missing. The crucial similarity between The Stepford Wives and Get Out is that the protagonists are erased against their will by a group who traditionally have been their oppressor. Both are civil liberty satires. The body swapped black characters in Get Out are very similar to the robot wives in The Stepford Wives that something is clearly "off" about them which alerts the hero/ine to a conspiracy which they are the victim of.


Last edited by Lost Highway on Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:42 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:42 am 
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Lost Highway wrote:
In both of those films the protagonists change into other bodies/identities by their own choice and the political dimension is missing. The crucial thing in The Stepford Wives and Get Out is that the protagonists are erased against their will by someone who traditionally have been their oppressor. Both are civil liberty satires.


This is a good analysis (I’ll take your word for it not having seen Stepford), and why I mentioned only ideas.


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:44 am 
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Seconds is too, but for a different sort of minority. Looking at its authors without question Hudson was reflecting something of his sexuality and Frankenheimer his Judaism, particularly pointed at the last scene.


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:46 am 
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The film's strongest selling point is it's immediate cultural relevancy. Let's be honest: the Oscars struggle with this even at their best. It's rare that blockbusters make it into the final circle anymore, and films about what's going on are usually delegated to down ticket noms rather than Best Pic. Get Out is the beneficiary of extraordinary good timing, being a fairly novel (though not wholly original, as the last couple posts highlight) high concept, and being a well-made audience-pleaser. I see as much in common with noms for things like Juno and Little Miss Sunshine as I do the usual selections of modern Social Problem Pictures on this last point (and not said as a diss, I think those films are about on this one's level of okayness). Those notably didn't translate to wins for the big prize, but this has the aforementioned other things going for it


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 Post subject: Re: Awards Season 2017
PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:49 am 
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knives wrote:
Seconds is too, but for a different sort of minority. Looking at its authors without question Hudson was reflecting something of his sexuality and Frankenheimer his Judaism, particularly pointed at the last scene.


That isn't the text of the film, that is you speculating about two famous people's minority status.


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