881-884 The Marseille Trilogy

Discuss DVDs and Blu-rays released by Criterion and the films on them. If it's got a spine number, it's in here. Threads may contain spoilers.
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tenia
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Re: 881-884 The Marseille Trilogy

#51 Post by tenia » Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:33 am

knives wrote:For a company like Criterion they would either have to licence a French subtitle track or make one of their own which can be costly.
I suspect contractual limitations would actually be the first issue to pop up regarding this kind of inclusion.

Universal can include so many languages (and take logistically advantage of it) because they don't have this kind of contractual limitations thanks to worldwide rights, but independant labels like Criterion rarely have this opportunity. Even if they have the budget to include them, they wouldn't be allowed to.

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movielocke
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Re: 881-884 The Marseille Trilogy

#52 Post by movielocke » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:39 pm

Marius is a thoroughly fantastic film. gorgeous photography, tremendous performances, and sparkling, often hilarious dialog (which I was able to thoroughly grasp because the subtitles are pretty damn good at conveying the tone and timbre of the repartee) that moves at a million miles a minute. The film, though on the long side, moves extremely fast because the dialog clips along at such a breathless pace. A great film, and I was surprised to see that it didn't quite place on the last decade list the forum did, an oversight sure to be remedied in the next iteration.

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domino harvey
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Re: 881-884 The Marseille Trilogy

#53 Post by domino harvey » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:50 pm

movielocke wrote:Marius is a thoroughly fantastic film. gorgeous photography, tremendous performances, and sparkling, often hilarious dialog (which I was able to thoroughly grasp because the subtitles are pretty damn good at conveying the tone and timbre of the repartee) that moves at a million miles a minute. The film, though on the long side, moves extremely fast because the dialog clips along at such a breathless pace. A great film, and I was surprised to see that it didn't quite place on the last decade list the forum did, an oversight sure to be remedied in the next iteration.
Well, it was in my Top 10 :-"

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Re: 881-884 The Marseille Trilogy

#54 Post by swo17 » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:26 pm

It was a mere 19 points away from making the top 100 in the last round. domino only placed it at #9 so this was half his fault.

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Re: 881-884 The Marseille Trilogy

#55 Post by jorencain » Wed Jul 26, 2017 9:54 pm

This perhaps is not the best thread to pose this question, but here it is:

I'm watching "Fanny," which has a handful of instances of missing frames. The most noticeable (so far) is during the beginning of the wedding scene around 1:26, where several frames are obviously missing. The soundtrack, however, is uninterrupted.

Is it stupid to ask how that is corrected during a restoration (i.e. How can the sound be seamless while the visuals are not?)?

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movielocke
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Re: 881-884 The Marseille Trilogy

#56 Post by movielocke » Sun Jul 30, 2017 2:03 am

Fanny is also excellent, though not so quite as excellent as Marius. The rather glorious tracking shots from the doctor to the church are outstanding, and remarkable to see, on the other hand the film seems slightly less well pulled off by allegret than Korda, though I think it is actually losing Marius as a repartee partner for both fanny and Cesar winds up bringing the films dynamics down. Both films are filled with "sit around and talk for a glorious twenty minute scene" sequences but Kordas film has an extra vibrancy to it.

One of the interesting things about he first film is how I didn't hate Marius, as selfish characters such as his are usually the kind I love to hate. But the way pagnol pulled off the sincerity of Marius' love for the sea (though I spent most of the first film thinking he really just has wanderlust and the sea is what he has latched on to) and wove the theme of his independence into the themes of Fannys exploration of her own independence (and her realizations and maturation throughout the first film), made Marius' actions work without making you hate him. In many ways it's a hopeful ending.

So we then reject that hope in the second film and take a deep dive into the machinations of French culture in Fanny, I for one loved all these classic Victorian/Dickensinian marriages and births and inheritances portrayed in the midst of the Great Depression, brilliant.

and in a twist I didn't expect, the film lets Marius be portrayed as the unrepentant selfish asshole he clearly was all along. Seeing him come back in this manner rather than in a continuation of the romanticized portrayal as a dreamer in the first film was simply delightful, and made the whole film for me.

And let me as an aside just gush a bit at how thoroughly I adore raimu in these films, particularly in the second film as he now journeys through an emotional roller coaster in this film, rather than the comfortable status quo he maintained during the first films plot.

Not to be outdone, Panisse really shines in this film, in the first film you're a little amused and a little creeped out by him. In this film you are one hundred percent charmed by him, it's a great feat for pagnol to have pulled off.

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Re: 881-884 The Marseille Trilogy

#57 Post by movielocke » Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:28 pm

Cesar is just a hair better than Fanny, and in some ways a bit worse (because it is just a little more indulgent and a little more laconic). At times, I found the young putz pretty irritating but overall the warmth of Marseille and Raimu just shine here as in the other films. I love that Marius always stays the jerk, and I love that the kid is growing up to be a rich version of the same jerk. I don't particularly love the machinations of the final third of Cesar that maneuver the trilogies titular couple together, I was kind of cringing as I realized it was starting to unfold, but then Pagnol handles it terribly well and I was ultimately won over by the ending.

the features in the set are all outstanding, a really great curation on criterion's part. Many of the french features make a great deal of noise about the marseille "accent". Since I don't speak french, I assume this is sort of like a southern accent? the only difference I noticed was that in Marius it often sounded like they were speaking a hybrid Italian/French, that is to say, French with all the speed, shouting and loud emphasis you often hear in Italian. But I didn't notice this so much in Fanny or Cesar.

Just a tremendous release from start to finish, my favorite of the year thus far.

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Re: 881-884 The Marseille Trilogy

#58 Post by movielocke » Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:29 pm

swo17 wrote:It was a mere 19 points away from making the top 100 in the last round. domino only placed it at #9 so this was half his fault.
well it should be fine (likely all three will make it next time) considering that the first thirty or forty films in the list are almost all criterion titles!

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domino harvey
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Re: 881-884 The Marseille Trilogy

#59 Post by domino harvey » Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:38 pm

I agree with your ranking of 1, 3, 2, though I will almost surely only end up voting for Marius yet again when the time comes. It does my heart good to see people discovering these films, though!

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Re: 881-884 The Marseille Trilogy

#60 Post by Ribs » Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:40 pm

The American Logan remake will be on TCM on Sunday night/Monday morning next week, for the morbidly curious. I'm not done with the set yet (spacing it out!) but I'll be recording it to revisit this version. (I'm amused to see some people on the Letterboxd page for it saying it's not enough plot for a 140 minute movie). As I mentioned on the first page here I don't really remember anything about the remake other than that Fanny says "Mr. Panisse!" over and over again seemingly endlessly, but it's competent and entertaining enough otherwise as far as I can recall (no patch on this version, though).

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Re: 881-884 The Marseille Trilogy

#61 Post by movielocke » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:42 pm

I saw the Logan one years ago, and did not think it was very good.

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knives
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Re: 881-884 The Marseille Trilogy

#62 Post by knives » Mon Aug 21, 2017 3:30 pm

I like it even as it necessarily speeds things up. Probably the best performance of that one German guy who is usually terrible.

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Re: 881-884 The Marseille Trilogy

#63 Post by Lowry_Sam » Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:07 pm

A reviewer on Amazon states:
Steven A. Brown wrote:Yes the new restoration look fantastic and yes, there are some very good extras in this set... HOWEVER... while there seems to be some bits of footage added to all 3 films, there is also footage that has been omitted from earlier, unrestored releases of The Trilogy (KINO's release for example). The most egregious being in "Cesar" - where footage has been cut (why?) from the wonderful scene in the bar between Cesar and Cesariot. What gives Criterion? If one is going to go to all the trouble to restore these classically eternal films, why not go the distance?
I haven't seen anyone else mention this before, is it true?

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Re: 881-884 The Marseille Trilogy

#64 Post by jsteffe » Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:40 pm

It's worth pointing out that the films were restored by the Compagnie méditérranéenne de films and the Cinémathèque française. They would be in the best position to answer questions about any textual differences. I'm curious to hear what you find out!

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Re: 881-884 The Marseille Trilogy

#65 Post by hearthesilence » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:18 pm

Anyone have Kino's old DVD? I'm wondering how much was allegedly omitted.

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domino harvey
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Re: 881-884 The Marseille Trilogy

#66 Post by domino harvey » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:30 pm

I sold mine for big bux as soon as this was hinted at. I'd like more than an Amazon Customer Review before I start even pretending this is a thing, though

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Re: 881-884 The Marseille Trilogy

#67 Post by bearcuborg » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:31 pm

I have both, but haven’t watched anything but the extras on the Criterion yet (having watched my Kino set half a dozen times) but I’ll take a long when I get back from traveling if someone hasn’t figured it by then...

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Gregory
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Re: 881-884 The Marseille Trilogy

#68 Post by Gregory » Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:44 pm

A couple of months ago I made some comparisons between the Kino DVD set and this Blu-ray set and then got in touch with Criterion. I waited a bit for a reply, which is fine, but the set's producer read my email and I got a response. So I thought I'd share their explanation as well as my transcription of the portion of the scene I noted was missing from César.

I don't know if there are other similar omitted scenes or lines of dialogue across the trilogy. While it was easy for me to play the Kino DVDs and the Criterion Blu-rays simultaneously in the same room, it quickly became a frustrating process because the films play faster on the Kino DVDs, I assume because they were taken from PAL masters. As they were always slightly running ahead of the Criterion counterpart, I couldn't keep the two in sync so that added or missing footage would be easily noticed. And at 395 minutes a full comparison would be no mean feat anyway.

So here's Criterion's response to me, followed by what I'd consider a pivotal confrontation between César and Césariot that I transcribed from the Kino DVD.
We worked very closely Nicolas Pagnol, Marcel Pagnol’s grandson, on this release, and Nicolas feels that this is the correct version of the film. Marcel Pagnol tinkered with his films over the years for re-releases and the restoration we used for the set was the new restoration done by Nicolas. He feels this restoration is complete to what Marcel would have wanted. We are happy with the result and are delighted to have been able to work so closely with Nicolas on the release of this set.
At 1:08:45 on the Criterion disc the scene ends with the line “What a fine bunch of relatives.”
On the Kino DVD, this is translated as “A noble lineage indeed.” The scene then continues as follows:
César: Upset?
Césariot: A bit.
César: Too bad.
Césariot: For me.
César: We were wrong to give you an education. It wasn’t necessary. We made a gentleman of you. Now you sound like a Parisian. You’ve come back with a foreign accent. [Imitating him:] A noble lineage indeed.
Césariot: It’s not my fault.
César: We need an interpreter to talk to you! I don’t understand half of what you say. Not that anything you’ve said is very nice.
Césariot: Your father was a César too?
César: Yes.
Césariot: And your grandfather?
César: I wouldn’t ask too many questions, if I were you. You’re less likely to find a king than a slave trader in your background.
Césariot: So this is the cradle of my race, my inheritance. And this bar is my family emblem. It’s hilarious.
César: Education may have improved your mind, but it’s destroyed your heart.
Césariot: Why do you say that? Because I don’t come here and drink? Godfather, I’m sorry if I’ve hurt you.
César: It’s not your godfather you’ve hurt. It’s your grandfather.
Césariot: Well, I’m sorry, Granddad. I’m taking the 6:00 train. We mustn’t fight before I leave.
César: [Kisses his forehead] I’m glad you found out the truth. What do you intend to do now?
Césariot: About what?
César: About your father. You want to see him?
Césariot: Not on your life.
César: Perhaps later on.
Césariot: What would be the point?
César: Yes, what would be the point? [Shrugs, pats his shoulder]
Last edited by Gregory on Mon Sep 10, 2018 6:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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domino harvey
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Re: 881-884 The Marseille Trilogy

#69 Post by domino harvey » Mon Sep 10, 2018 5:59 pm

Thanks for transcribing that, Gregory. Disappointing that the producer gave a brush-off answer-- they could have at least included the deleted material as a bonus, but let's be real: they prob never knew it was gone in the first place

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tenia
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Re: 881-884 The Marseille Trilogy

#70 Post by tenia » Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:13 am

A member on DVD Classik stated that there are actually 2 scenes cut from César, so yeah, Criterion probably didn't even know it was gone in the first place.
He mentioned other small editing differences in some scenes.

On the French DVD, the cuts are located at :
43'32-45'01 (1'29 missing)
1h04'30-1h06'32 (2'02 missing)

There is a change located at 50'19 during the line : "Tu n'étais peut-être pas mon père, mais tu as toujours été mon papa." On the DVD, it's followed by a close up on Orane Demazis' face, with the voice over "...et ça, il le restera toujours !" In the newer version, the voice over is replaced by Césariot brandishing his index finger and saying the line himself.

Césariot's arrival in Marius' garage has been moved after Maupi's phone call.

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Re: 881-884 The Marseille Trilogy

#71 Post by Jonathan S » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:31 am

I checked my 1989 BBC off-air recording and the section described by Gregory is fully present in the print they broadcast, which concludes with a 1964 copyright notice on the "Fin" title. With PAL speedup, the total timing of the BBC César is 2:12:06. Allowing for the BBC's omission of intro and outro music with no image, this is identical to the timing of the Kino, which also ends with the 1964 copyright notice. (However, the English translation is not the same and indeed the BBC uses "What a fine bunch of relatives".)


I don't have the Criterion issue but, according to Beaver, its running time is 2:21:40, so - even allowing for the slower 24fps and the three and-a-half minutes cut - it appears to be a somewhat longer print, suggesting there must be other footage in the Criterion that isn't in the other editions (unless there's just more intro/outro music or maybe restoration info?) Is there any authoritative source for the original theatrical length? A whopping 2 hours 48 minutes is claimed on imdb!

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tenia
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Re: 881-884 The Marseille Trilogy

#72 Post by tenia » Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:58 am

The 3min30 is the total cut found by the Classik member.
The movie was originally about 165 minutes. A 135 min one was made in 1946 which is the one we now know. This second version is not only a shorter cut but a different one, with about 20 minutes that weren't in the longer cut. The 50 missing minutes mostly develop Cesariot.
It's said that the Cinémathèque de Toulouse holds a copy of the first version but seemingly, Nicolas Pagnol thought that this shorter cut, further modified, is more faithful to what his grand-father wanted.

This means there are at least 3 different cuts : the longer 165 minutes one, the shorter one as released on DVD, and the shorter one as restored in 2017.

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Gregory
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Re: 881-884 The Marseille Trilogy

#73 Post by Gregory » Tue Sep 11, 2018 2:04 pm

Thanks for the replies and further information. I'm not completely sure how I feel about this new restoration of César; I suppose it depends on whether Nicolas Pagnol was acting on specific instructions from Marcel P. before his death regarding these two truncated scenes, as opposed to just "I think he'd have wanted it this way." In general, I'm leery of descendants or estates making changes/edits and having the work in its established form thrown on the dustbin by no longer being published.

I've also transcribed the first elided part that tenia mentioned that's found at about 43:32, a nice conclusion to the scene where César and his friends are playing cards and mourning Honoré: they deal Honoré in as his chair sits empty. After Monsieur Brun recites the Sully Prudhomme verse and César says "That’s beautiful," the scene continues on the Kino DVD:

César: We dealt him a hand!
M. Brun: Out of habit.
[César reaches over and turns over the cards]
César: He had a good hand!
Félix: How would he have played that hand?
César: I played my only spade so I could trump.
M. Brun: What would he play?
César: I know. He’d play his joker.
Félix: And he takes mine.
M. Brun: And he was right.
[All three laughing]
César: He’s no altar boy when it comes to cards!
Now he’d play a spade.
M. Brun: Why?
César: He knew I’d played a low card. He’d be expecting me to trump. [Throws a card down]
Now I play a low heart.
Félix: Why? He’ll take the trick.
César: If he were alive, I wouldn’t know. I play a low heart and he takes the trick.
Félix: So he takes the trick again.
César: That’s made him happy.
M. Brun: Now I come in with my trump.
César: Now what would Honoré do? Let’s see. Lay down his cards. [Speaking as Honoré:] My friends, all the rest are mine. All the rest are mine.
He’s right.
Dr. Venelle: It’s the first time I’ve seen a dead man play cards.
César: Yes, and the first time we didn’t cheat. And we lost.
Last edited by Gregory on Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 881-884 The Marseille Trilogy

#74 Post by Michael Kerpan » Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:02 pm

Gregory -- how in heaven's name coul anyone decide to cut this continuation of the scene! Seems totally nuts!

So does this mean the Kino set is better ("textually")?

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Re: 881-884 The Marseille Trilogy

#75 Post by domino harvey » Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:07 pm

Well, Criterion adds material not found on Kino's versions, but I think there's little doubt Criterion presents a better overall presentation even with these contentious edits

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