Cinema Guild

[SpiderBaby]

Any interest in a 'limited deluxe' blu-ray where you could charge $50-60, make a cool digipak package just to give it eye candy and that way, you can sell it for the cost of '2 separate blu-ray releases'?

I might buy that, but generally, it probably wouldn't sell well to people who can import the UK Blu-ray for under $20.

Limiting it with a digipak will get the collectors storming in though. There are people that blind bought MV's Possession for example due to packaging and being 'limited'.

[warren oates]

Cinema Guild, when you have some time and if you're able to elaborate on your Norte decision, I wonder if you could share how releasing this film today is different from, say, the excellent job you've done in the past with the Blu-rays of Once Upon A Time In Anatolia (total content runtime of 349 minutes) or The Turin Horse (total of 285 minutes). Now, granted, not all of that runtime on the discs is for materials shot and encoded at the highest resolution. But it doesn't seem technically impossible. So I suppose part of what I'm asking is: Is it a technical challenge in a way we're not understanding?

In another recent thread board member zedz noted that Criterion has pushed the limits similarly in the past:

I thought four hours was well within the range of a decent quality BluRay. Hasn't Criterion issued a number of Blus with that amount of video content?

EDIT: Quick selection of single disc Criterion Blus with way more than four hours of content:
Kagemusha (280+ minutes)
Marketa Lazarova (290+ minutes)
Nashville (280+ minutes)
Monsoon Wedding (360+ minutes!)

And The Last Emperor disc had its problems, but it somehow managed to accommodate over 250 minutes of HD material plus more than 2 hours of SD.

So CG, was it just that if you decided to go Blu-ray on Norte (250 minutes only for the feature) there would be no room for the special features you felt you needed to include and that would force you to jump to a second disc? Or was there really a problem getting the whole feature itself onto a single 50g dual layer Blu-ray without suffering from necessary technical compromises?

[cinemaguild]

Warren, all the issues you bring up above are valid and factored into our discussions. But the bottom line is that given the current state of the home video market in the U.S., we felt it would not be possible for this title to generate enough sales to cover the encoding and replication and related costs of a proper Blu-ray release (plus the double-disc DVD package which we're producing).

[swo17]

Obviously it's a big risk, one that New Wave were thankfully willing to take, but there's no guarantee that it will pay off for them. (Fortuitously though, New Wave's odds are increased given that no one else in the world has taken the same chance.)

[warren oates]

Thanks for the fast response, CG. I don't suppose that you are considering going dual format with physical media anytime soon, especially given the way that it went for Criterion? Anyway, I've pre-ordered your HD iTunes release of Norte and I'm looking forward to screening it with some friends.

[cinemaguild]

Warren, first off, thanks very much for your interest in these films and our releases. It really is heartening for us to see. And second, thanks for pre-ordering the HD iTunes copy.

We have definitely discussed dual format releases - many times, and at length. And no matter which scenario we play out, ultimately, it's a more expensive endeavor than standalone DVD and Blu-ray releases. I imagine that's what Criterion is seeing.

And going forward, I think you'll be pleased with our upcoming Blu-ray releases. Some exciting announcements coming up.

[swo17]

Regarding dual format releases, I do really like how you treated the Sokurov set (Blu-ray where the materials allowed for it mixed with DVDs for the other films) and wish that Criterion for example would follow suit with their Eclipse series.

[cinemaguild]

Yes, the Sokurov set is the only time we've done that. And for that very reason - WHISPERING PAGES had an amazing new HD transfer, and the other 2 films were only available SD. We're very happy with how this set turned out as well.

[zedz]

I'd like to join the lovefest for CinemaGuild. You put out some great editions of great films, and I really appreciate you coming here to explain your reasoning about the Norte decision.

[FrauBlucher]

Warren, all the issues you bring up above are valid and factored into our discussions. But the bottom line is that given the current state of the home video market in the U.S., we felt it would not be possible for this title to generate enough sales to cover the encoding and replication and related costs of a proper Blu-ray release (plus the double-disc DVD package which we're producing).

Would there be something in the future that could change your thoughts about releasing Norte on blu ray, say, an Academy Award nomination, and perhaps winning?

[cinemaguild]

There's very few things that would make us reconsider the Blu-ray decision; but an Oscar nom would certainly be one of them.

[perkizitore]

How is a blu-ray commercially viable in the UK and not in the US with a significantly larger population and market?

[swo17]

It's not a sure thing that it is commercially viable in the UK. In all likelihood, New Wave is taking a big chance on it. Also, presumably the licensing costs are much greater in the U.S.

[cinemaguild]

Right, we can't speak to other markets, only to our own.

[perkizitore]

I will rephrase the question:
Why does New Wave is willing to take a chance while Cinema Guild does not? Maybe US licencing is more expensive, but bear in mind how expensive is to get this film rated by the BBFC! Maybe New Wave knew Cinema Guild's plans and hope this blu-ray will have a significant global demand to justify the risk.

[What A Disgrace]

Several of their DVD-only releases have had extensive extras in the past, so I at least hope their package will consist of more than just the trailer and booklet mentioned

[med]

I will rephrase the question:
Why does New Wave is willing to take a chance while Cinema Guild does not?

Right, we can't speak to other markets, only to our own.

In other words, ask New Wave why they released something in a particular format. Do not ask a company that isn't New Wave why New Wave released something in a particular format.

[perkizitore]

Enough with the semantics, it does not mean that I demand an answer from Cinema Guild by posting it here!
If it's the wrong place to be asking such questions, the mods are free to move it where they please.

[SpiderBaby]

There's very few things that would make us reconsider the Blu-ray decision; but an Oscar nom would certainly be one of them.

Is any of those things goals that us the consumer can do? I'm here to support a CG blu-ray release of this, and would pre-order, help fund, tell anybody I can to do the same, whatever I have to do.

[FerdinandGriffon]

Would there be something in the future that could change your thoughts about releasing Norte on blu ray, say, an Academy Award nomination, and perhaps winning?

Ha! Yeah, right. In what universe do the Academy Awards nominate arty five hour long agitprop Dostoevsky adaptations from the Philippines? A better one, certainly, but not ours.

[FrauBlucher]

Certainly art films have been nominated in the past in FF category. Granted, the 4 plus hours of Norte could be challenging for the voters.

[The Fanciful Norwegian]

Norte isn't even a lock to be submitted as the Philippines' official entry. Last year the committee made a conservative (and controversial) choice by sending the more conventionally "important" Transit instead of Brillante Mendoza's Thy Womb. Another problem is that the state-run Film Development Council is pushing Diaz's Mula Sa Kung Ano Ang Noon, which is supposedly getting a seven-day Filipino qualifying run later this month—so there's a possibility that the "Diaz vote" might be split between two films.

[chatterjees]

I tried a lot to stay away from this this discussion, but can't do it anymore. I tried to reason with this company a lot on their FB page when they refused to do a blu release for Sang-soo Hong's The Day He Arrives, but I failed. So, I stopped following them and got my blu from Korea. They are doing the same thing with Norte, the End of History.
This is useless to try to convince them. I think it is impossible for the film to get a Oscar nomination. By now, you guys should know about the people who run the Academy and the actual value of the whole charade. If somehow, this film manages to get a nomination, and let say it wins the great award, do you guys really think that CG will release a BD of the film? These people are here to do business and Lav Diaz or this film is not big enough to earn them money. Then, I ask myself what forced them to release the blu-rays of The Turin Horse, Marwencol, Manakamana or The Strange Case of Angelica? I think that those titles didn't even sell well. Again, I do appreciate the efforts CG put into those releases. So, I think that all those business related reasons (for not to release a BD of the film) finally become ineffective if the owner of the company decides to go for the risk. I think the UK based companies have more guts than those here in US. It is unfortunate, but this difference between the two countries also has something to do with the local consumers. Lets have an example here. How many people in UK are buying MoC's BD of Faust and how many people in US bought CG's The Turin Horse? Also think about how many titles from released by Twilight Time have gone SOLD OUT. The US market is just bizarre, but you can get a near to clear idea about the consumers. Do you guys want to count the number of BDs released so far for the B-grade horror films in the US?
If only 50-100 US consumers are willing to buy Diaz's Norte (digipak/limited edition or just a normal/simple edition), they are not gonna release a BD of it. This is hardcore reality and we should all learn to live with it. I would say that just save some money and get a region free player. Trust me, its your freedom, if you are a diehard fan of World Cinema.

[MichaelB]

I suspect it's as simple a case as the rights costing a fair bit more in the US, and distribution logistics being more expensive. So a release in a much smaller territory like the UK or any other individual European country will be less of a risk.

But there's no way a decision like this will have been taken lightly. I can't speak for Cinema Guild, but Second Run would love to get into Blu-ray - but they just can't get the numbers to add up in an advantageous way.

[chatterjees]

I suspect it's as simple a case as the rights costing a fair bit more in the US, and distribution logistics being more expensive. So a release in a much smaller territory like the UK or any other individual European country will be less of a risk.

But there's no way a decision like this will have been taken lightly. I can't speak for Cinema Guild, but Second Run would love to get into Blu-ray - but they just can't get the numbers to add up in an advantageous way.

Thanks Michael, your valuable reasoning totally skipped my mind. Its a great, valid point you just mentioned, in addition to the overall demand for a particular title in a territory.