Carney-vàle!
- gcgiles1dollarbin
- Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:38 am
Re: Carney-vàle!
^Agree. And it's a bummer when well-meaning folks show up to the anti-war rally with "Free Leonard Peltier" or "Legalize Marijuana" signs, if I may draw a comparison. Obscures the issue, diffuses the energy, blunts the effect. I wish people would stay on-point in matters like these. This has nothing directly to do with Ray Carney's tenure.
- gcgiles1dollarbin
- Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:38 am
Re: Carney-vàle!
How is fraudulently putting a lien on someone's artistic property connected directly to the tenure system in the United States?
EDIT: I should add that I am a musician, and I had an ex-collaborator refuse to return my 2-inch masters, claiming--with no basis in fact, either written, spoken, or imagined--that I had agreed to pay him money for studio time. He came close to admitting to me that he was lying and simply doing this on a "business basis"--in other words, he knew, in spite of there being no contract, that enough time had elapsed with the tapes in his possession, he could possibly win in court and yet bank on the fact that my broke ass would never take him to court. He had even been advised by a friend in the music industry to do this! Fortunately, the only advantage I lose is being able to do a new mix on reel-to-reel machinery; I can still reproduce the recording. But I honestly believe that this guy has deluded himself into thinking that this is appropriate behavior--"Hey, man, nothing personal, it's just business," as he said to me once. I think this is extremely common practice in this country, at least.
I think my story, which has nothing to do with academia, is more directly applicable to Rappaport's situation, because it invokes issues of property rights, and the growing chasm between what is considered "legal" and what is considered, by most compassionate people's accounts, simple human decency. In my mind, tenure does not enable this behavior, except perhaps indirectly, assuming that Rappaport trusted Carney more given the latter's academic status. Perhaps it influenced him to relinquish his work to Carney, but it seemed more like the two were, before anything else, simply good friends, and that his tenured status had very little to do with Rappaport's decision. I obviously know neither one of them, but I thought I would respond more fully to your contention that the tenure system is what is directly at fault here. I think blaming tenure in the U.S., as the commenter did on the web petition, muddles the issue. Denying tenure to professors would obviously not solve the problem.
EDIT: I should add that I am a musician, and I had an ex-collaborator refuse to return my 2-inch masters, claiming--with no basis in fact, either written, spoken, or imagined--that I had agreed to pay him money for studio time. He came close to admitting to me that he was lying and simply doing this on a "business basis"--in other words, he knew, in spite of there being no contract, that enough time had elapsed with the tapes in his possession, he could possibly win in court and yet bank on the fact that my broke ass would never take him to court. He had even been advised by a friend in the music industry to do this! Fortunately, the only advantage I lose is being able to do a new mix on reel-to-reel machinery; I can still reproduce the recording. But I honestly believe that this guy has deluded himself into thinking that this is appropriate behavior--"Hey, man, nothing personal, it's just business," as he said to me once. I think this is extremely common practice in this country, at least.
I think my story, which has nothing to do with academia, is more directly applicable to Rappaport's situation, because it invokes issues of property rights, and the growing chasm between what is considered "legal" and what is considered, by most compassionate people's accounts, simple human decency. In my mind, tenure does not enable this behavior, except perhaps indirectly, assuming that Rappaport trusted Carney more given the latter's academic status. Perhaps it influenced him to relinquish his work to Carney, but it seemed more like the two were, before anything else, simply good friends, and that his tenured status had very little to do with Rappaport's decision. I obviously know neither one of them, but I thought I would respond more fully to your contention that the tenure system is what is directly at fault here. I think blaming tenure in the U.S., as the commenter did on the web petition, muddles the issue. Denying tenure to professors would obviously not solve the problem.
- gcgiles1dollarbin
- Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:38 am
Re: Carney-vàle!
David, I think we're discussing this at cross purposes. You are considering consequences, not causes. Certainly, he should lose his tenure, his job, etc. But the object here--first and foremost--is for Rappaport to have his work returned. And, ideally, to have this kind of behavior discouraged in the justice system, no matter what position the thief holds, be it beggar, executive, tenured professor, soda jerk.
As for academia, who would ever look to a university for some kind of moral precedent? I wouldn't say, having been through a doctoral program, that this has been a moment of disillusionment for me. Professors are no better, and often worse, than the rest of us.
As for academia, who would ever look to a university for some kind of moral precedent? I wouldn't say, having been through a doctoral program, that this has been a moment of disillusionment for me. Professors are no better, and often worse, than the rest of us.
- Jeff
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:49 pm
- Location: Denver, CO
Re: Carney-vàle!
Carney responds to The Rappaport Situation, casts himself as a victim of blackmail, extortion, "cyberbullying."
- Mr Sausage
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:02 pm
- Location: Canada
Re: Carney-vàle!
Whatever the actual truth value of that is, I have no doubt that Ray Carney believes every single word of it. I don't think he's uttered a single conscious untruth.Jeff wrote:Carney responds to The Rappaport Situation, casts himself as a victim of blackmail, extortion, "cyberbullying."
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- Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:06 pm
Re: Carney-vàle!
Man oh man, I had a hard time even getting past the first paragraph of that piece.
- gcgiles1dollarbin
- Joined: Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:38 am
Re: Carney-vàle!
That a) he (unadvisedly) publicizes his legal squabbles on a website purporting to expose the oppressive bureaucracies at B.U. and b) he consequently associates Rappaport with those institutional grievances is disingenuous and galling.
- matrixschmatrix
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 11:26 pm
Re: Carney-vàle!
I'm find his claim that he has ironclad proof that the reels were gifted, were worthless in the first place, and were otherwise going to be trashed pretty dubious- like, why would he bother writing a million word screed about how right he is, rather than just posting the relevant documentation and making Rapaport look like an idiot?
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- Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:49 pm
Re: Carney-vàle!
"I appreciate Carney’s concern in trying to exhonorate [sic] himself, even though I couldn’t make it through the letter, despite the fact that it’s mostly about me." Mark Rappaport responds. Also, Jon Jost chimes in, Ben Safdie sticks up for Carney, and blah blah blah, and why is this playing out on Mubi? Good grief.
- dustybooks
- Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:52 am
- Location: Wilmington, NC
Re: Carney-vàle!
None of this is funny, I know, but I am greatly amused by the suggestion someone makes there of a "moderated Mubi trial."
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- Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:54 am
- Location: Philadelphia
- matrixschmatrix
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 11:26 pm
Re: Carney-vàle!
Rappaport certainly seems to have better foundation for whatever terms he uses- assuming he's not actually fabricating documents, it certainly does appear that Carney dramatically changed his story from one to the other. Though admittedly I'm inclined to read Rappaport's side more favorably, since Carney seems like such an asshole.
- whaleallright
- Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 12:56 am
Re: Carney-vàle!
I think we should all be able to agree that Boston University violating their contract with Carney over accusations that have yet to be admitted or proven in open court would be cause for great concern. I have no love for Carney at all, and I'm inclined not to believe his version of events, but I'm neither an arbitrator nor a member of a jury nor a judge.
- whaleallright
- Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 12:56 am
Re: Carney-vàle!
n/a
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- Mr Sausage
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:02 pm
- Location: Canada
Re: Carney-vàle!
I'm not really up on Carney's actual scholarly work. Would you mind expanding?jonah.77 wrote:Once again, I say this as someone who thinks Carney has done more harm than good as a film scholar.
- Mr Sausage
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:02 pm
- Location: Canada
Re: Carney-vàle!
Really? I remember reading some tirade against that movie's "fakeness" on the one brief scan I made of his website years ago.david hare wrote:Sausage he boasts of never having seen Citizen Kane and one of his central platforms is to "hate Hollywood."jonah.77 wrote:The rest of your post does not merit a response.
- whaleallright
- Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 12:56 am
Re: Carney-vàle!
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- Michael Kerpan
- Spelling Bee Champeen
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 1:20 pm
- Location: New England
- Contact:
Re: Carney-vàle!
Perhaps, but denying someone access to their own work (for quite a long time now) is pretty seriously problematic. I don't think one treat the two sides as equally culpable.jonah.77 wrote: Frankly, folks on both sides of this debate are behaving like children.
- matrixschmatrix
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 11:26 pm
Re: Carney-vàle!
I don't think there's any reason to believe that's the case. The topic came up because david hare suggested that this situation might constitute grounds for breaking tenure, not because any of the concerned parties mentioned it. I honestly don't see any reason to believe Rappaport's done anything wrong, here.jonah.77 wrote:That said, I think he deserves due process like anyone else caught in a controversy that is, of now, just volleys of hearsay. If Jost and Rappaport did indeed try to get him fired, that's contemptible.
- Gregory
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 4:07 pm
Re: Carney-vàle!
On behalf of a couple of billion children, I'd like to say that comparing them to Ray Carney is unwarranted and unfair.jonah.77 wrote:Frankly, folks on both sides of this debate are behaving like children.
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- Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 4:35 pm
Re: Carney-vàle!
I'm not big on Carney's work now, although I was a fan as, I guess, a teenager- age 18 or 19, read his website publications and took a lot of his film recommendations (most of them good, to his credit). But now what I remember of his site- indulgent interviews that feel like Carney wrote the questions, too, simplistic anti-Hollywood screeds (he had one 'heroic' anecdote about yelling at a secretary who called wanting him to prepare copy or something for the Academy Awards), and a cult of personality sprung up through his fan letters- he doesn't strike me as the same kind of Truth-Telling Outsider..
That said, whatever his biases and personal tendencies, and however melodramatically he and Jost/Rappaport/etc. have behaved, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me to envision an alternative version of events that's not as simple as Carney-the-deceiver victimizing the naive filmmaker..
That said, whatever his biases and personal tendencies, and however melodramatically he and Jost/Rappaport/etc. have behaved, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me to envision an alternative version of events that's not as simple as Carney-the-deceiver victimizing the naive filmmaker..
- Mr Sausage
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:02 pm
- Location: Canada
Re: Carney-vàle!
Consistency tells you a lot. Whose account has remained consistent? Jost/Rappaport have been very consistent with each one of their charges. Ray Carney, on the other hand, has provided nothing but shifty, hazy, changing accounts of what happened. I know immediately who to trust, and it's not the person who alters their story bit by bit to keep consistent with the facts as they come out..onedimension wrote:That said, whatever his biases and personal tendencies, and however melodramatically he and Jost/Rappaport/etc. have behaved, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me to envision an alternative version of events that's not as simple as Carney-the-deceiver victimizing the naive filmmaker.
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- Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:06 am
Re: Carney-vàle!
I'm not really sure what people think Jost and Rappaport and their many supporter should do to actually get the films back at this point. Pretend that this isn't happening? Not become increasingly angry as time goes by and the films in Carney's hands? Not try to get the public on their side? Getting Carney fired seems like a last resort... but what other recourse do they eventually have? I put myself in Rappaport's place and, frankly, I'd do whatever I could at this point in the insanity to get my materials back. It's not like this is a situation that seems to be resolving itself, and the idea that this should be emotionless seems pretty ridiculous to me.If Jost and Rappaport did indeed try to get him fired, that's contemptible. Frankly, folks on both sides of this debate are behaving like children.
I'm also not very clear on how losing a job, when you could easily find employment at many other universities (as someone of Carney's stature, both despite and perhaps because of his infamy, could do) is as bad as large-scale robbery and repeatedly lying to a "friend." I guess I also don't understand how a person could feign that both sides are equally in the right here, so I'm not going to pretend I'm unbiased here.