432-433 Mishima: A Life in Four Chapters & Patriotism

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arsonfilms
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#76 Post by arsonfilms » Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:10 pm

I'm sorry Cronenfly, I was actually just trying to reinforce your point, not disagree with it. It sounded to me as though an awful lot of work was done on the disc, so the only thing that really differentiates your statements from mine is that I'm a little less worried about the changes based on my recent sense of Schrader on a personal level.

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Cronenfly
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#77 Post by Cronenfly » Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:27 pm

arsonfilms wrote:I'm sorry Cronenfly, I was actually just trying to reinforce your point, not disagree with it. It sounded to me as though an awful lot of work was done on the disc, so the only thing that really differentiates your statements from mine is that I'm a little less worried about the changes based on my recent sense of Schrader on a personal level.
I can see where you're coming from in your optimism; the only reason I have any doubt is that (to my eye) even the best digital effects these days still often show their seams. Given that this alteration seems to be only to the setting of the cliff suicide (and given that it's being done to make the setting less realistic/more stage-like, so seamlessness is much less of an issue) makes me less worried, but I remain cautiously optimistic.

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#78 Post by Antoine Doinel » Sat May 03, 2008 8:06 pm


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domino harvey
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#79 Post by domino harvey » Sat May 03, 2008 8:29 pm

Remember when Criterion was considered a reference-level DVD label? Those were the days.

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#80 Post by colinr0380 » Sat May 03, 2008 9:06 pm

I'm not sure just how adding a scene and a 5.1 remix affects Criterion's reputation. They've released 5.1 soundtracks before and often include the original version for comparison (wasn't the only release to not include the original option the Picnic At Hanging Rock disc?).

Tinkering with the colours is perhaps a little more questionable but if they find room to put the earlier version of the scene somewhere in the extra features for comparison purposes that would placate me.

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#81 Post by Cronenfly » Sat May 03, 2008 9:28 pm

The scene Schrader added is likely the Chishu Ryu deleted scene included on the Warner DVD. It's from The Temple of the Golden Pavilion section, and is very brief. Its addition shouldn't disrupt the flow of the film too much, if at all.

I'm interested to know exactly what the "sky replacement" will constitute; hearing the change phrased like that makes it seem like it could be a digital tinkering or (and I don't know if this is possible or not) a matting in of a more theatrical sky. Could be something else, too, and I'm sure someone with more technical knowledge than myself could take a more well-informed stab at what exactly the change might be.

I can think of at least two other examples of Criterions not including the original soundtracks (Sweetie and An Angel at my Table); while this doesn't bother me personally a great deal, it would still be a nice gesture on Criterion's part to include the original 2.0 stereo. As of now, the 5.1 isn't even listed on the Criterion site, so there's reason to be optimistic for the inclusion of both, in my opinion.

And, from the Criterion site, this "new" version is now being called the director's cut:
- New, restored high-definition digital transfer of the director's cut, supervised and approved by director Paul Schrader and cinematographer John Bailey

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#82 Post by Argonaut69 » Thu May 29, 2008 4:11 pm

The changes Schrader is making sound relatively minor and in keeping with what he originally intended so I doubt I will have an issue with it. What I do find troublesome is when filmmakers treat a given film as a sort of live action video game where things can be cut and pasted, CGI effects added, backgrounds digitally inserted as Lucas did with the re-issue of the first three Star Wars films. The changes almost inevitably do not quite feel organic and stick out from the rest.

The finale of Runaway Horses (the final segment of Mishima) has never struck me as especially problematic but I can see Schrader's point about making it more stylized to fit in with the rest of the dramatic re-enactments. I always saw the mostly naturalistic final scene as it was originally presented as reflecting the fantasy color of the fictional segments finally merging into reality but it's probably more clear and consistent to present it how it will be on the Criterion disc.

I agree with Schrader that Mishima is his best film as a director and I also happen to think it's the best (and most emotional) Philip Glass score as well.

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#83 Post by Jean-Luc Garbo » Thu May 29, 2008 4:29 pm

Argonaut69 wrote: I always saw the mostly naturalistic final scene as it was originally presented as reflecting the fantasy color of the fictional segments finally merging into reality but it's probably more clear and consistent to present it how it will be on the Criterion disc.
I feel the same way about that scene and that's why I like it. I'll have to wait for the DVD and see how different it is.

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#84 Post by kaujot » Thu May 29, 2008 10:18 pm

But did Mishima see reality coming into its own by then?

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#85 Post by mfunk9786 » Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:01 pm

souvenir wrote:
Cronenfly wrote:The CC store now has both of these listed as coming July 1st. And interestingly DVD Planet has Mishima listed as temporarily out of stock...
It also could screw up potential 20% off sales, unless DVD Planet mistakenly lists it as already out and allows the discount to apply.
This is going on as we speak, it's still listed (oddly) as April 8th, and out of stock. So the discount applies when you order.

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#86 Post by cdnchris » Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:54 pm

While it has the Janus logo on the back (and opens with it), Mishima states it was licensed from American Zoetrope, but I doubt that's a surprise (but figured I'd share.) The artwork actually looks much better when you have it in your hands as well. It's embossed and actually looks pretty sharp (in my opinion anyways.) As for what I've seen from the picture and sound so far I think some people are going to be very happy.

As well, unless I'm missing something, there's no 5.1 track on here. It's 2.0 Dolby Surround. Still sounds great.

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#87 Post by TheGodfather » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:36 pm

cdnchris wrote:The artwork actually looks much better when you have it in your hands as well. It's embossed and actually looks pretty sharp (in my opinion anyways.)
hmmmm.... embossed. That`s something new. Sounds interesting.

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#88 Post by Cronenfly » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:55 pm

cdnchris wrote:While it has the Janus logo on the back (and opens with it), Mishima states it was licensed from American Zoetrope, but I doubt that's a surprise (but figured I'd share.) The artwork actually looks much better when you have it in your hands as well. It's embossed and actually looks pretty sharp (in my opinion anyways.) As for what I've seen from the picture and sound so far I think some people are going to be very happy.

As well, unless I'm missing something, there's no 5.1 track on here. It's 2.0 Dolby Surround. Still sounds great.
If you'd be so kind, Chris, could you report back when you get a minute on how the digital manipulation of the cliff climax is handled (if it indeed appears to you to be altered at all)? I'd ask too about whether it's just the Chishu Ryu scene that has been added to the film and whether the English voiceover narration is the VHS/original cinema version or the same as the Warner DVDs (I really don't want to reopen that can of worms, but I'm still curious as to which version is included on the Criterion disc) but I don't want to ask too much and I don't know how much experience you've had with the film outside of the Criterion disc. However, if you could provide answers to those questions too, I'd appreciate it very much.

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#89 Post by cdnchris » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:34 pm

TheGodfather wrote:
cdnchris wrote:The artwork actually looks much better when you have it in your hands as well. It's embossed and actually looks pretty sharp (in my opinion anyways.)
hmmmm.... embossed. That`s something new. Sounds interesting.
I'm an idiot, I completely used the wrong word. What I meant is it has a metallic sheen over it. I forget the term for this and I even used to work at a printing place.
If you'd be so kind, Chris, could you report back when you get a minute on how the digital manipulation of the cliff climax is handled (if it indeed appears to you to be altered at all)? I'd ask too about whether it's just the Chishu Ryu scene that has been added to the film and whether the English voiceover narration is the VHS/original cinema version or the same as the Warner DVDs (I really don't want to reopen that can of worms, but I'm still curious as to which version is included on the Criterion disc) but I don't want to ask too much and I don't know how much experience you've had with the film outside of the Criterion disc. However, if you could provide answers to those questions too, I'd appreciate it very much.
I don't want to commit to anything because I want to go over it again (I pretty much just got through the film last night and want to go over everything else today) but I've only seen the film on VHS many, many years ago. I wasn't able to get my hands on the Warner DVD, unfortunately, my last resort being NetFlix and they had it on the Very Long Wait list. One sequence that stood out, though, was Mizoguchi visiting an old priest, who is played by Ryu. So I'm assuming that's the deleted scene. As for alterations to the climax, I can't say. I'm going to go over it again with the commentary (maybe it'll point something out,) but nothing stood out to me.

The disc also contains 3 audio tracks. It has the Japanese version, the Roy Scheider track (which, from memory, sounds the same as the VHS version I originally saw) and another track that was supposed to be a test track for Scheider (this one I haven't gotten around to yet.) The Japanese track sounds absolutely incredible, but the same treatment wasn't given to the Scheider track. His voice is loud, but everything else comes off weaker. Just comparing the score on both tracks is like comparing night and day.

I hope that helps for now.

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#90 Post by miless » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:36 pm

TheGodfather wrote:embossed. That`s something new. Sounds interesting.
the Teshigahara box is embossed.

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#91 Post by domino harvey » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:44 pm

It's foil-stamped, look in the Cover Art thread, there's pics of the whole package there

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#92 Post by Cronenfly » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:45 pm

cdnchris wrote:I don't want to commit to anything because I want to go over it again (I pretty much just got through the film last night and want to go over everything else today) but I've only seen the film on VHS many, many years ago. I wasn't able to get my hands on the Warner DVD, unfortunately, my last resort being NetFlix and they had it on the Very Long Wait list. One sequence that stood out, though, was Mizoguchi visiting an old priest, who is played by Ryu. So I'm assuming that's the deleted scene. As for alterations to the climax, I can't say. I'm going to go over it again with the commentary (maybe it'll point something out,) but nothing stood out to me.

The disc also contains 3 audio tracks. It has the Japanese version, the Roy Scheider track (which, from memory, sounds the same as the VHS version I originally saw) and another track that was supposed to be a test track for Scheider (this one I haven't gotten around to yet.) The Japanese track sounds absolutely incredible, but the same treatment wasn't given to the Scheider track. His voice is loud, but everything else comes off weaker. Just comparing the score on both tracks is like comparing night and day.

I hope that helps for now.
That helps a lot! Thanks very much.

Given the lack of the promised 5.1 bump, it could be that Schrader decided to leave the cliff sequence alone (and this being called the "director's cut" could just be due to the inclusion of the brief Ryu scene).

I'm very interested in the inclusion of the two Scheider tracks; this could go a long way towards explaining the confusion over the multiple versions of the English V/O. Too bad the English track isn't mastered better, but given that the Ogata version is Schrader's preferred, it isn't so surprising (though that doesn't make it any less disappointing to those who prefer the English V/O).

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#93 Post by cdnchris » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:15 pm

domino harvey wrote:It's foil-stamped, look in the Cover Art thread, there's pics of the whole package there
Yeah, that's it. Simple enough.
I'm very interested in the inclusion of the two Scheider tracks; this could go a long way towards explaining the confusion over the multiple versions of the English V/O. Too bad the English track isn't mastered better, but given that the Ogata version is Schrader's preferred, it isn't so surprising (though that doesn't make it any less disappointing to those who prefer the English V/O).
The test track was actually not recorded by Scheider, but was a test track that was used during editing that was then used as a guide for Scheider.

And as for the climax, don't take my word for it as my memory isn't good as to how it looked originally. I was hoping to get a look at the Warner DVD just for this very fact but wasn't able to and am disappointed by that. All it could mean is it was altered but I didn't notice. In the commentary, though (which was recorded in 2006) he briefly says something like "this is an image I'm hoping to do some sky replacement on." (to a chuckle from Alan Poul) So he could have done it.

But I'll ask this, then: Was the sky behind the character sort of a dark red? This is something I don't recall.

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#94 Post by zedz » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:36 pm

cdnchris wrote:Mizoguchi visiting an old priest, who is played by Ryu.
Now that's what I call a deleted scene! (And we thought it was just Mishima's estate that was pissed off about the film.)

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#95 Post by TheGodfather » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:40 pm

cdnchris wrote:I completely used the wrong word. What I meant is it has a metallic sheen over it.
ah ok ;)
miless wrote:the Teshigahara box is embossed.
I don`t own that one so I didn`t know.

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#96 Post by Morgan Creek » Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:53 pm

domino harvey wrote:It's foil-stamped, look in the Cover Art thread, there's pics of the whole package there
Photos don't really do justice to how striking the entire package of this set is - every element of it is beautifully conceived and executed (and despite all the early complaining, it doesn't read at all as psychedelia). Another design by Neil Kellerhouse, who did the Varda and Teshigahara, among many others.

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#97 Post by Cronenfly » Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:04 pm

That there was an English V/O recorded for the film by someone other than Scheider (even if it was "only" a guide track; Criterion has seen fit to include it, though, so there must be something more to the matter/some noteworthy differences between the two) I think makes the issue of the multiple English V/O worth further investigation (but only if anyone else is still interested...I give up).
cdnchris wrote:But I'll ask this, then: Was the sky behind the character sort of a dark red? This is something I don't recall.
Cronenfly wrote:Memory fails me...I believe it was red, but not a really dark red. I'm not certain, though; hopefully someone with the disc on hand can chime in.
kinjitsu, who has the Warner disc on hand (a serious leg up on my no longer having the Warner DVD/my Alzheimer's), told me in a pm that:
kinjitsu wrote:Facing him the sky is deep blue, followed by a reverse shot of the sunset behind him, which is deep red, almost burgundy.
Last edited by Cronenfly on Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:00 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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#98 Post by cdnchris » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:53 pm

I'll be taking screen grabs tonight and I'll get one of that sequence and post it. But I'm sure Gary will have comparisons up soon, though, and he'll at least clear it up.

If there was an alteration, though, it wasn't an issue to me. The image transfer, otherwise, was exceptional.

EDIT: I just got a message that the sky was actually blue in the shot, also noted above in Cronenfly's post. So, yes, it has been altered. The sky is now a dark red, or burgundy, to match the shot of the sun. The commentary was recorded in 2006 and it appears no alterations had happened by that point.

Edit #2: Having now gotten through the whole commentary it's confirmed that not only is the conclusion of the film altered but the conclusion of the Runaway Horses has also been altered. He complains about the day-for-night shots and then one shot of a blue sky that ruins it. He mentions how he wants to change the colour of the skies and hopes Criterion will be able to help him do that (they're obviously watching a version with the old skies.) The skies were changed to red as well to match the feel of the sequence.

End of Runaway Horses segment
Image

Final sequence
Image

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#99 Post by Fan-of-Kurosawa » Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:27 am

I just got it along with Patriotism. I totally agree with the others about the package. It is great. It has a golden-metallic glossy feel (the background colour is gold, not greenish-yellowish like in the published cover art) and it is very impressive. :D

But I want to note that the booklet is also very impressive.
Of course, most of Criterion's booklets are quite good but this is something else thanks to the photographs of Ishioka's sets. These are some of the most interesting and beautiful photos I have ever seen in a DVD booklet. (And I have to admit that I usually consider it a waste of space when I see stills or production photos in booklets. I prefer they use the space for more essays.)
Last edited by Fan-of-Kurosawa on Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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#100 Post by Cronenfly » Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:59 am

Do the people who have already received Mishima and Patriotism get it from DVD Planet?

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