The Lists Project

[zedz]

Very interesting preliminary list of titles there. I find it bizarre that John Huston's big four that were on the first list (The Treasure of the Sierra Madre, The Maltese Falcon, The Battle of San Pietro, and Key Largo) are all absent. He wasn't disqualified for bad behavior or anything, right?

Half of those are now on the master list, but, with only single nominations, are not yet eligible for the aggregate. Unless the voting suddenly dries up, I'm sure they'll make it in the long run.

There are actually a lot of big name titles that I'd assumed to be favorites that have yet to really register, including the major film noir I ranked at number 4 but which hasn't made anyone else's list. (My number one is similarly desperate and dateless, but that was always a lost cause).

The Reckless Moment remake (or rather the remake of the novel the Blank Wall) is called the Deep End (not to be confused with Skolimowski's Deep End.)

Ah yes, how could I forget such a memorable (and relevant) title? I suspect the gender twist is one of the things that attracted Tilda, who is, as I recall, very good in one of her straighest roles.

[zedz]

Latest regurgitation of interesting or un- statistics.

The directors who have accumulated the most points so far are, in order:

1. Ozu Yasujiro
2. Alfred Hitchcock
3. Jacques Tourneur
4. Orson Welles
5. Michael Powell & Emeric Pressburger
6. Raoul Walsh
7. Preston Sturges
8. Jean Gremillon
9. Howard Hawks
10. John Ford

This is not necessarily reflected in the placings for their films. Just about every Hitchcock film from the 40s has made somebody's list (what, no love for Mr and Mrs Smith?), and the highest ranking one is still well outside the top ten.

Powell / Pressburger and Preston Sturges are in the same vote-splitting boat. Walsh's votes, on the other hand, are strongly concentrated on two films and Ford's on one.

A friendly reminder that this weekend will be your last opportunity to catch up on all those Esther Williams movies before the voting deadline!

[zedz]

We're nearing the finish line - only a couple of voting days left. 11 lists received so far. Although the inevitable process of calcification is setting in (the more votes come in, the more the list tends to look like every other list of this sort), there is still plenty of room for surprises, as titles leapfrog over one another with every list received. The current number 1 and 2 are significantly ahead of their nearest rivals, but only within a few votes of one another. Number 3 and 4 are in an even tighter death match, and the rest of the top ten is completely up for grabs, with a couple of dozen films all within striking distance of it.

The US domination is overwhelming: 71% of films nominated have been American and they've also accounted for 67% of the votes. Many big name foreign language 'classics' (and a few US ones) have got comparatively short shrift.

[souvenir]

If it's not too much of a pain, would you mind posting the voting totals on the final list this time zedz? I always like to see how close the rankings are.

[colinr0380]

Anyone sitting around with a copy of Walsh's Pursued, that hasn't watched it yet in anticipation of the 40s list, should pop it in the player. I was totally floored by the noir lighting in this film (the whole look of the film reminded me much of New Mexico at night under a full moon.)

Your comment made me look out my old recorded-from-television copy of Pursued that I'd had on my shelf but had not watched for the last twelve years! Thank you for kicking me into touch and giving me the incentive to watch it!

I would agree with you about the look of the film, it is magnificent with the light glinting off the spurs. Unfortunately I wasn't that impressed with the film's flashback structure. I didn't buy that Mitchum would stand there and relate the whole story to his girl who had been there to witness it the first time through anyway!

SpoilerShow

"Hey, do you remember that time I shot your brother and then you vowed to kill me but then couldn't do it because you were just a silly lovestruck girl? You must recall it - it was only the most important and devastating series of events in your life!"

At this point I was imagining Mitchum violently shaking her shouting "Remember! Remember!"

Sadly my imaginings trying to make the flashback work pulled me out of the film, and I also found the ending an anti-climax (it has that quality of a quick resolution and then straight out of the film to the end credits that is very nice to watch. No half hour of resolution after the action has officially ended, but I'm not complaining about the swiftness of the resolution. It just felt to me that we never really got into the head of the mother to understand what she was thinking - what was the turning point for her to side with Mitchum - a bit of a flaw for a 'psychological western', even if she wasn't the main character in the piece).

Not to mention the convenience of Mitchum's character being able to overcome his amnesia at the most convenient point in the film for him to do so! (i.e. after the flashback and five minutes before the end!) I think his character must have been faking not being able to remember anything!

It was a very well made piece of work though, and certainly an interesting attempt at a more psychological western, even if I didn't think it worked very well.

[zedz]

If it's not too much of a pain, would you mind posting the voting totals on the final list this time zedz? I always like to see how close the rankings are.

No problem. Right now they're very tight indeed. Earlier today, there were only 5 points between number 4 and number 8.

[GringoTex]

(the more votes come in, the more the list tends to look like every other list of this sort)

I hope that means Ford and Hawks are being restored to their proper place above Raoul freaking Walsh!

I'm obviously going to have to check out some Gremillion now.

[mikeohhh]

(the more votes come in, the more the list tends to look like every other list of this sort)

I hope that means Ford and Hawks are being restored to their proper place above Raoul freaking Walsh!

I'm obviously going to have to check out some Gremillion now.

I just hope Preston Sturges can have a film place higher than #30 this time around! Motherfucker OWNED this decade in my book (I didn't, and won't submit a list because my overall knowledge of 1940s films is pretty scant by this boards standards... maybe I shouldn't have touted my "book" just now... but Sullivan's Travels is a contender for #1 on the list I've been kicking around in my head, with The Miracle of Morgan's Creek not far behind).

[HerrSchreck]

Nobody owned this decade, man. It was bursting with talent and innovation all over the globe.

And Tex Avery is the comedy king of them all and ahem (cough) owned the decade flat out! RED HOT RIDING HOOD was so funny that the audiences went nuts and were recorded to have gone so crazy with laughter that they yelled and screamed at the projectionist and raised hell until he finally gave in and reran the 'toon.

"FUCK the FEATURE... we want cartoon repeats!" People would sneak into the mgm cartoon studio and steal Preston Blair's cells of Red (who was never rotoscoped, btw... all done from his mind.)

[GringoTex]

Zedz' top ten directors ranking strikes me as somewhat idiosyncratic, and I was wondering to what degree voters decided it was time to give lesser-known directors their due. I know, for example, that Rosenbaum doesn't include films by such directors as Godard and Welles and Hitchcock on his top lists anymore, because he considers their work and reputation beyond that. Or is the forum consensus really that Walsh's 40s output is better than Hitchcock's?

[HerrSchreck]

Zedz' top ten directors ranking strikes me as somewhat idiosyncratic... Or is the forum consensus really that Walsh's 40s output is better than Hitchcock's?

Zedz top ten ranking? I thought it was the forum's.

You are winning friends and poll playmates by the dozen.

Indeed.

I for one have thousands of films but don't own a single Hitchcock, though I've seen them all. None of his films are on my list.

[GringoTex]

Tex you're dangerously close to trolling kiddo.

??? Are the walls padded in here or what?

I found Walsh's ranking over some of the major directors surprising. There's nothing really dangerous about my remarks, and I didn't mean for you to feel threatened.

[HerrSchreck]

I'd say the one who raised the issue & vents at a faceless list ("..Raoul FREAKING Walsh???", and "Is the forum consensus really...??") is the one feeling threatened.

[GringoTex]

You are winning friends and poll playmates by the dozen.

Almost as interesting as your claim that the world didn't discover Ozu and Dreyer until you bought your first dvd player.

Believe me you didnt.

Why not try some other thread where you can scare the antsies.

Is this your game- wildly overreact in the hope that I'll no longer participate in the poll?

[HerrSchreck]

Almost as interesting as your claim that the world didn't discover Ozu and Dreyer until you bought your first dvd player.

Don't hide behind vaguery. Please reprint the actual quote from which you extracted that blue whale, so the world can see the breadth of your specially constructed warm fuzzy world where the blankets are cuddly, the teddy bears are big, and unfriendly facts dissappear in the steam of your hot cocoa mug.

Somebody ban this knucklehead already. He contributes nothing, garbles every thread he wanders into with bad scholarship, and when the surrounding scalps get scratched, he makes Yilmaz Guney look like Neville Chamberlain.

[tryavna]

the big studios were [...] frequently ossifying or "milseading" otherwise fine directors (Hawks, Lubitsch, Hitch, Wyler....) into "prestige" post war material and some of their worst work

The prime example probably being George Stevens!

Sorry, I know I'm not adding anything to this thread, but David's point has just answered a question I've scratching my head over for a couple of weeks, since having recently rewatched The More the Merrier and Gunga Din and wondering where the hell Stevens' talent went after that.

[Scharphedin2]

Sorry, I know I'm not adding anything to this thread, but David's point has just answered a question I've scratching my head over for a couple of weeks, since having recently rewatched The More the Merrier and Gunga Din and wondering where the hell Stevens' talent went after that.

I think the documentary that his son made about his career answers the question. After the experiences Stevens had in the war, he just could not go back to making light entertainment. But really, if you look at I Remember Mama, I think that film shows that he still had a great sense of timing in the (albeit few) comedic scenes. Personally, I am a big Stevens fan (both his pre- and post- World War II films). I think I see the same humane sensibility shining through in both the light and the heavier films. Seriously, tryavna, you really do not care for Shane, Place In the Sun and Giant?

[zedz]

Just a brief interruption and then you can all go back off-topic.

1) LAST CALL for 40s lists.

2) The great Gun Crazy is a 1950 film according to imdb, and thus ineligible. I've PMed several listmakers who have given me alternative titles, but a few lists have come through recently including Gun Crazy. I'm removing Gun Crazy from those lists and bumping everything up a notch. If you submitted such a list and haven't been contacted by me, feel free to email me your new number 50.

[tryavna]

I think the documentary that his son made about his career answers the question. After the experiences Stevens had in the war, he just could not go back to making light entertainment.

Yes, I'm aware of the "conversion experience" (if we can call it that) that Stevens had during the war and especially after visiting the concentration camps. But instead of exploring darker social or psychological issues, as other directors of his generation did, Stevens seems to have decided to pursue piety instead. As a result, his later films have always seemed weighted down by their own self-importance to me -- as if Stevens is trying to beat it into our heads that we're watching something "important." The nearest analogy I can think of off the top of my head is the British author Evelyn Waugh, who similarly shifted after the war from a fast, cold satiric genius into maudlin nostalgia and piety.

Seriously, tryavna, you really do not care for Shane, Place In the Sun and Giant?

I'm afraid to say that I've always found it a chore to sit through those three films. A Place in the Sun has its moments, but it's far too glossy for my tastes. (Then again, I know the original Dreiser, so maybe that hurts my enjoyment of the movie.)

I really wish that Stevens had always remained in fast-paced, comic mode.

[Scharphedin2]

Then again, I know the original Dreiser, so maybe that hurts my enjoyment of the movie.

It is a great book. I only came to the book about ten years after seeing the film, however. The thing I particularly liked about the book was the cadence of Dreiser's writing. In fact, I have not seen Place In the Sun since reading the book, so I look forward to revisiting it in the near future. Maybe my enjoyment of the film will be different. Interestingly, the thing I remember liking very much about the film was also relative to the rhythm of the way that Stevens structured the film.

But instead of exploring darker social or psychological issues, as other directors of his generation did, Stevens seems to have decided to pursue piety instead. As a result, his later films have always seemed weighted down by their own self-importance to me -- as if Stevens is trying to beat it into our heads that we're watching something "important."

I think I understand what you mean by Stevens signalling to his audience that they are about to see "important" films (not sure I would use the word "piety" though). Shane, Sun and Giant all deal with "darker social" issues. You have immigration in Shane, social inequality and sex in Sun, and you have a number of different issues going on in Giant -- gender and race equality amongst them. But is it not the total vision of America in these films that is interesting? If you look at the depiction of the American society in these films as compared to that of films of the earlier decades, and of course Stevens own films, it is radically different, challenging the American ideals and identity of the post-war era.

I really wish that Stevens had always remained in fast-paced, comic mode.

Hmm, I love the comedies as well. yet, I admire Stevens for his total body of work.

[zedz]

Well, it was a nail-biting finish, with the final list determining our top film (and just look how close it was).

The results (I've included total number of points received after each film in the top 50; film number 100 scored 87 points):

1. Late Spring (Ozu, 1949) 712
2. Citizen Kane (Welles, 1941) 710
3. Day of Wrath (Dreyer, 1943) 524
4. The Third Man (Reed, 1949) 503
5. Notorious (Hitchcock, 1946) 464
6. Ivan the Terrible I & II (Eisenstein, 1945/6) 449
7. The Magnificent Ambersons (Welles, 1942) 435
8. Bicycle Thieves (De Sica, 1948) 421
9= Beauty and the Beast (Cocteau, 1946) 414
9= Out of the Past (Tourneur, 1947) 414
11. The Lady Eve (Sturges, 1941) 370
12. His Girl Friday (Hawks, 1940) 345
13. Sullivan's Travels (Sturges, 1941) 343
14. The Red Shoes (Powell / Pressburger, 1948) 333
15. My Darling Clementine (Ford, 1946) 314
16. White Heat (Walsh, 1949) 303
17. Double Indemnity (Wilder, 1944) 291
18. The Shop around the Corner (Lubitsch, 1940) 290
19. Meshes of the Afternoon (Deren / Hamid, 1943) 270
20= The Lady from Shanghai (Welles, 1944) 266
20= Children of Paradise (Carne, 1945) 266
22. Casablanca (Curtiz, 1942) 261
23. The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp (Powell / Pressburger, 1943) 258
24. A Canterbury Tale (Powell / Pressburger, 1944) 250
25. Brief Encounter (Lean, 1945) 249
26. Black Narcissus (Powell / Pressburger, 1947) 248
27. Letter from an Unknown Woman (Ophuls, 1948) 247
28. Rome, Open City (Rossellini, 1945) 240
29. The Big Sleep (Hawks, 1946) 237
30. To Have and Have Not (Hawks, 1944) 229
31. Cat People (Tourneur, 1942) 228
32. Monsieur Verdoux (Chaplin, 1947) 222
33. Fantasia (Algar et al, 1940) 220
34. Laura (Preminger, 1944) 217
35= The Palm Beach Story (Sturges, 1942) 214
35= It's a Wonderful Life (Capra, 1946) 214
37= To Be or Not To Be (Lubitsch, 1942) 213
37= The Treasure of the Sierra Madre (Huston, 1948) 213
39. Scarlet Street (Lang, 1945) 210
40. The Best Years of Our Lives (Wyler, 1946) 203
41= Thieves' Highway (Dassin, 1949) 199
41= Stray Dog (Kurosawa, 1949) 199
43. Quai des Orfevres (Clouzot, 1947) 192
44. Kind Hearts and Coronets (Hamer, 1949) 186
45. I Know Where I'm Going! (Powell / Pressburger, 1945) 183
46= I Walked with a Zombie (Tourneur, 1943) 182
46= Force of Evil (Polonsky, 1948) 182
48. There Was a Father (Ozu, 1942) 181
49. Les Dames du Bois du Boulogne (Bresson, 1945) 178
50. The Maltese Falcon (Huston, 1941) 176
51. La Terra trema (Visconti, 1948)
52. Rope (Hitchcock, 1948)
53= Meet Me in St Louis (Minnelli, 1944)
53= Shadow of a Doubt (Hitchcock, 1943)
55. Brute Force (Dassin, 1947)
56. They Live by Night (Ray, 1948)
57. A Matter of Life and Death (Powell / Pressburger, 1946)
58. Spring in a Small Town (Fei, 1948)
59. The Killers (Siodmak, 1946)
60. Ossessione (Visconti, 1943)
61. Le Corbeau (Clouzot, 1943)
62. Rebecca (Hitchcock, 1940)
63. Nightmare Alley (Goulding, 1947)
64. The Leopard Man (Tourneur, 1943)
65= Germany Year Zero (Rossellini, 1948)
65= Brothers and Sisters of the Toda Family (Ozu, 1941)
67. Pursued (Walsh, 1947)
68. Unfaithfully Yours (Sturges, 1948)
69= Fireworks (Anger, 1947)
69= Blood of the Beasts (Franju, 1949)
71. Pinocchio (Luske / Sharpsteen, 1940)
72= King-Size Canary (Avery, 1947)
72= Heaven Can Wait (Lubitsch, 1943)
74. T-Men (Mann, 1947)
75. Begone Dull Care (McLaren, 1949)
76. The Philadelphia Story (Cukor, 1940)
77= The Curse of the Cat People (Wise, 1944)
77= Louisiana Story (Flaherty, 1948)
77= Pattes Blanches (Gremillon, 1949)
80. At Land (Deren, 1944)
81. The Loyal 47 Ronin (Mizoguchi, 1941)
82. The Ox-Box Incident (Wellman, 1943)
83. The Fountainhead (Vidor, 1949)
84. Jour de fete (Tati, 1949)
85. Kiss of Death (Hathaway, 1947)
86. Fort Apache (Ford, 1948)
87. The Naked City (Dassin, 1948)
88. The Seventh Victim (Robson, 1943)
89= Red Hot Riding Hood (Avery, 1943)
89= Shoeshine (De Sica, 1946)
91= Caught (Ophuls, 1949)
91= The Set-Up (Wise, 1949)
93= Bad Luck Blackie (Avery, 1949)
93= La Tempestaire (Epstein, 1947)
95. Red River (Hawks, 1948)
96. Christmas in July (Sturges, 1940)
97. Detour (Ulmer, 1945)
98. The Devil and Daniel Webster (Dieterle, 1941)
99. Record of a Tenement Gentleman (Ozu, 1948)
100. La Silence de la mer (Melville, 1948)

22 lists were received; 283 films were nominated; 171 appeared on more than one list and were thus eligible. No film appeared on every list. Citizen Kane came closest, missing out on only two lists; Late Spring appeared on all but four lists.

This round, I kept track of running top tens after each list was added. Only two films appeared in every permutation of the top ten: Late Spring and Day of Wath. The Ozu was the early leader by a mile, but Kane crept up on it like a slow-motion Hokusai tsumani and overwhelmed it thoroughly yesterday. Then the last three lists received edged it back into contention, and, at the last minute, nosed it ahead.

My favourite result is Fireworks at number 69, tied with Blood of the Beasts. (i]Fireworks[/i] had actually been in the top ten in the very early stages of voting.) Among the also-rans we also have the mathematically perfect minimal result of 2 points - a film that appeared on two lists, but only at position 50 on both.

I'll post more statistics later on - if there's any information you're particularly interested in seeing, let me know.

There are darlings galore this time round. At least three people's top picks (including mine) didn't end up in the final 100, and two of them only attracted a single vote. Race you to the Defended Darlings thread!

[zedz]

THE ALSO-RANS

Here are the other qualifying (2 or more votes) titles from number 101 to 171:

Utamaro and His Five Women
A Hen in the Wind
The Great Dictator
Key Largo
Under Capricorn
The Grapes of Wrath
Fallen Angel
Oliver Twist
Raw Deal
The Miracle of Morgan's Creek
Foreign Correspondent
The Fallen Idol
Screwball Squirrel
Suspicion
Jammin' the Blues
Paisa
The Shanghai Gesture
Hail the Conquering Hero
Lumiere d'Ete
Dumbo
The Reckless Moment
Christ in Concrete
Fires were Started
Criss Cross
High Sierra
The Long Voyage Home
Macbeth
The Great Piggy Bank Robbery
The Stranger
The Mortal Storm
Mildred Pierce
Motion Painting No 1
Spellbound
Now, Voyager
Drunken Angel
She Wore a Yellow Ribbon
Gilda
Bank Dick
Puce Moment
The Razor's Edge
Ritual in Transfigured Time
Leave Her to Heaven
The Black Book
A Corny Concerto
The Pirate
Little Rural Riding Hood
Hangmen Also Die
Hellzapoppin'
Why We Fight (Battle of China) - I combined two votes here - one for the whole series, one for a specific episode.
Window Cleaners
The Lost Weekend
Murder, My Sweet
They Caught the Ferry
They Were Expendable
Stage Fright - actually 1950, according to imdb, but I spotted this too late to alert the voters involved, thus eligible next time around
Man Hunt
This Gun for Hire
Odd Man Out
The Shooting of Dan McGoo
How Green Was My Valley
Bambi
Prison
Lifeboat
The Southerner
Phantom Lady
Long-Haired Hare
The Street with No Name
Duel in the Sun
The Big Clock
All the King's Men
Arsenic and Old Lace

DIRECTORS

Top ten directors by total number of votes. This is a study in vote splitting, with P/P, Sturges, Hitchcock and Avery the most seriously afflicted. Avery was the winner in terms of the most films nominated.

1. Orson Welles (1538 points for 5 films)
2. Michael Powell / Emeric Pressburger (1496 points for 7 films)
3. Alfred Hitchcock (1306 points for 12 films - yes, even Mr & Mrs Smith got a vote!)
4. Preston Sturges (1301 points for 7 films)
5. Ozu Yasujiro (1202 points for 5 films)
6. Jacques "Freaking" Tourneur (960 points for 4 films)
7. Howard Hawks (929 points for 7 films)
8. John Ford (686 points for 7 films)
9. Ernst Lubitsch (657 points for 3 films)
10. Tex Avery (650 points for 13 films)

[GringoTex]

6. Jacques "Freaking" Tourneur (960 points for 4 films)

Actually, it's Raoul "Freaking" Walsh.

Thanks for the hard work, zedz.

[Brian Oblivious]

Great job tabulating! Thanks for putting in all the hard work, zedz! Can't wait to read the panda defenses (and hopefully to write mine relatively soon as well)

9. Ernst Lubitsch (657 points for 3 films)

Gotta be for at least 4 films, as there are three on the final list and I voted for another one.

[zedz]

Great job tabulating! Thanks for putting in all the hard work, zedz! Can't wait to read the panda defenses (and hopefully to write mine relatively soon as well)

9. Ernst Lubitsch (657 points for 3 films)

Gotta be for at least 4 films, as there are three on the final list and I voted for another one.

Right you are. The total points are for all four films.