Anime

[LQ]

so I'm trying to decide what film I should use to usher my boyfriend into the world of anime appreciation...he is very sceptical of this enterprise, but has agreed. So I'm taking a poll...Ninja Scroll? Thats my personal favorite, but I want other opinions

[Steven H]

I'd say Princess Mononoke. That's done the trick for a good number of my friends and family to get over the Pokemon hump.

[LQ]

I'd say Princess Mononoke. That's done the trick for a good number of my friends and family to get over the Pokemon hump.

hmm...it's really tempting to go with a miyazaki film, and I'd definitely go with P.M. if I decide to... so you think Ninja Scroll is not a good idea, then? Its certainly more geared towards male entertainment, I think...

[Darth Lavender]

so I'm trying to decide what film I should use to usher my boyfriend into the world of anime appreciation...he is very sceptical of this enterprise, but has agreed. So I'm taking a poll...Ninja Scroll? Thats my personal favorite, but I want other opinions

I've only watched Ninja Scroll once (although the same director's Wicked City is a favourite 'comfort film' of mine) It's well made for the 1990s, but didn't seem to have much 'artistic' merit. I can see it being an entertaining film, but I don't see it prompting any particular respect for anime. (Again, only watched it once, so take my words with a large dose of salt)

Mononoke is good, but perhaps even a little too accessible. It's so close to what people already like about Disney films (albeit, with a little more blood) that, again, I don't see it as really representing the strengths of anime.

For impressive, very Japanese, anime (which is what I think you should be looking for) I'd probably say "Akira" or "Spirited Away" ("Ghost in the Shell" is good, too, but touchs on a few too many of the anime cliches)
Or, for something completely different, 'Perfect Blue' An intelligently written mystery/thriller which is totally unlike most anime (not surprisingly, it was originally intended to be a live action movie)

[Michael Kerpan]

Or, for something completely different, 'Perfect Blue' An intelligently written mystery/thriller which is totally unlike most anime (not surprisingly, it was originally intended to be a live action movie)

While Perfect Blue IS "something completely different" from Miyazaki, I find it poorly written and sloppily directed (as is all too often the case when one comes to that talented under-achiever Satoshi Kon).

[LQ]

While Perfect Blue IS "something completely different" from Miyazaki, I find it poorly written and sloppily directed (as is all too often the case when one comes to that talented under-achiever Satoshi Kon).

unfortunately, I have to agree Its so pretty but I find that beauty to be simply artifice. I always get excited when a new Kon movie comes out, because I really want it to succeed..but then its always a bit of a letdown. BUT! I only saw PB once too, so take my word with a heap of salt as well

[Michael Kerpan]

If you could find all the volumes of Texhnolyze, I'd recommend this series -- except for the fact that it is now out of print in the US (due to the folding of Geneon USA). The most visually impressive dystopian series ever).

[LQ]

If you could find all the volumes of Texhnolyze, I'd recommend this series -- except for the fact that it is now out of print in the US (due to the folding of Geneon USA). The most visually impressive dystopian series ever).

I have suddenly become extremely interested. Ill try to track it down, thanks for that rec. However, I do need to narrow down a feature film...
so. Ninja Scroll, Princess Mononoke, Akira.. any other suggestions?

[jojo]

Nonetheless, I'd still recommend a gamble on Kon's films. He's a bit rough around the edges, but he's capable of staging great set pieces with a limited budget. And his films, while sometimes "poorly written and sloppily directed", almost always have a sort of lyrical rhythm to their pace that's quite absorbing if given in to.

Another feature film to take a swing at is Taro the Dragon Boy, a pretty hard to find DVD released on R1 by Discotek. It's one of the few anime films presented in Scope aspect ratio 2.35:1. It's quite old and dated looking sometimes, but there's a nice pseudo ukiyo-e feel to the visual compositions.

If you're trying to convert a not-too-discriminating fan (that is, someone who likes Hollywood movies) I actually might recommend Cowboy Bebop, the movie. It's self contained from the TV series, solidly directed, and has acceptable production values. It's no masterpiece, but anyone who would go into a Jason Statham movie and enjoy it would probably like CB.

[Michael Kerpan]

However, I do need to narrow down a feature film...
so. Ninja Scroll, Princess Mononoke, Akira.. any other suggestions?

I would recommend Mononoke and Tekkonkinkreet. Some pictures from the latter.

[LQ]

I would recommend Mononoke and Tekkonkinkreet. Some pictures from the latter.

I liked it, but I know it wouldn't have hooked me if that was the first film I saw. I have finally decided to go with Mononoke though; its excellent, gorgeously animated, and accessible.

Another feature film to take a swing at is Taro the Dragon Boy, a pretty hard to find DVD released on R1 by Discotek. It's one of the few anime films presented in Scope aspect ratio 2.35:1. It's quite old and dated looking sometimes, but there's a nice pseudo ukiyo-e feel to the visual compositions

It looks beautiful, I'll definitely try to find it.

Thanks for the help, everyone!

[Cde.]

"His and Her Circumstances" _should_ have been great -- but is a fiasco, taken as a whole. Flickers of glory, but ultimately a botch.

Up until episode 13 or so, the show is a great Godardian riff on the old high school romance anime. I agree the last half of the series is suspect at best, but if you choose to ignore the series because of it, you're missing something that you won't see on any other high school romance anime, probably ever. I admire it because at least it's trying to say things that most other shows of this genre don't.

It's worth noting that midway through the series (the fantastic) Hideaki Anno was fired from his role as head writer and director because the network was unhappy with his work, which I think more than explains how that series dives in quality so quickly.

This conversation is probably well and truly over by now, but reading this thread I just felt that needed to be pointed out.

[Robotron]

Or, for something completely different, 'Perfect Blue' An intelligently written mystery/thriller which is totally unlike most anime (not surprisingly, it was originally intended to be a live action movie)

While Perfect Blue IS "something completely different" from Miyazaki, I find it poorly written and sloppily directed (as is all too often the case when one comes to that talented under-achiever Satoshi Kon).

I'd be interested enough to come up with an interesting defense if there was an interesting criticism anywhere in here. As it stands, I only have to say that Miyazaki is fun, but nowhere near the imaginative layered shifts and elaborate meta-fictional universes of Kon.

[Michael Kerpan]

It's worth noting that midway through the series (the fantastic) Hideaki Anno was fired from his role as head writer and director because the network was unhappy with his work, which I think more than explains how that series dives in quality so quickly.

There is more than one competing story about Anno's departure. One is that he got bored by the project because he wasn't be allowed to do whatever he wished -- and he put it into the hands of his colleagues and went off to work on other projects that seemed more interesting (and less constrained). Another story is that almost everything but the (many) filler episodes were actually directed by him after all. Who knows?

I only have to say that Miyazaki is fun, but nowhere near the imaginative layered shifts and elaborate meta-fictional universes of Kon.

Never going to agree on this -- or even find common ground. Kon obviously (mostly) aims at a different audience from Miyazaki -- and I am not part of Kon's target audience obcviously. (I prefer to Takahata, in any event).

[jojo]

I have also heard conflicting reports about Anno's departure. In fact, I lean more towards the belief that he never left at all. His name is still on the credits in the later episodes, and not just for jobs he could have done WAAY beforehand. And in interviews, he still talks about the series as if he never left.

Me, I think the main problem isn't with how the "second half of the series" was done, to me it just seems like they ran out of material. Karekano should have been a 13 episode series with the material they had to work with, but instead were pencilled in for 26 and they had to wing it.

re-Miyazaki. While I totally admire his skill as a director, and his poetic sensibilities, in the end he's still a maker of mainstream films. And there's nothing wrong with that, but he's inherently limited by the formula he has given himself to follow. His films are linear. Yes, by Western standards they are free-floating but by anime standards he is incredibly easy to understand, he usually hews closely to a fairly traditional dramatic arc, and he very obviously aims to please a mainstream Japanese audience.

And this is a problem with current anime in general, all they want to do now is to either create beautifully rendered escapist worlds filled with cute girls and "feel-good" settings with pat, happy endings or on the other end of the spectrum, totally mystifying stories more in love with their navel gazing than to actually say something challenging and meaningful.

[Michael Kerpan]

Yes. If Karekano was scheduled for 13 episodes -- with a continuation possible in a future season (when the mange material was ready), it might have been a really first-rate series. I must say that I found the last volume of the manga very disappointing (in both English and Japanese). ;~}

Have you seen HM's Ponyo? I found it a major major disappointment. It struck me as even more an "imitation of Miyazaki" than his son's Earthsea.

[jojo]

Haven't seen Ponyo. I'll probably end up watching the dub version when it gets to theatres here, and then checking it out with the original Japanese track on R1 DVD. It did get some favourable reaction over here on the New Films forum though.

Regarding KareKano, I did notice a significant drop in wit and humour in the latter volumes of the manga. If Anno actually saw where it was going and was displeased with the direction, I actually wouldn't blame him, because it seems to me it ultimately ended up like your typical generic shoujo drama series.

[Michael Kerpan]

Actually, the very ending of Karekano (the manga) was just weird -- but this veered off in some rather unexpected directions. I am much more a Hana yori dango fan (manga and animation), so maybe I am biased.

Lots of people rave about Ponyo -- but I'm not one (and my kids were not overly enthused by it either).

[akaten]

I must admit I can see myself viewing Ponyo if only because of Miyazaki’s intent to make a hand animated feature, though I would concur that Isao Takahata films are of greater interest, really would like to see him being able to make as many films as he wants at Studio Ghibli before it is too late...btw Michael Kerpan and others may wish to look into a show called Kamichu! Recently reissued in a boxset by Funimation.

Regarding Studio Ghibli and Hideaki Anno, there’s an excellent mini feature on the Nausicaa DVD with anecdotes about his brazen approach of Miyzaki with sketches, who so impressed that he not only hired Anno on the spot, but placed him in charge of one of the most complicated (and memorable) sequences of the film when the apocalyptic nuclear monster with its rippling flesh is briefly brought back to life (also provided key animation work on Grave of the Fireflies). Indeed there’s imagery in Nausicaa that heavily influenced Neon Genesis Evangelion almost to the point of being recreated albeit on a far lower budget , that was expended halfway through the show. This is of course when an otherwise well crafted show (many of the staff involved have gone on success directing series) that varies but doesn’t really deviate from the fan-service male fantasy, generic mecha show format becomes more distinctive, controversial (not to mention muddled) out of time restraints and monetary necessity.

For what it’s worth while I acknowledge there is some merit to be found in his work (surprised Gunbuster has yet to be mentioned) but in hindsight I would much rather Anno had stayed with Studio Ghibli, feel he could have accomplished much more but I suspect I’m in the minority on this, as I am with Mamoru Oshii, feel it’s a real shame the way his career has gone, especially with the manner Gainax exploits the surprise success of Evangelion with merchandise, moe and Lolita pandering, and now new films, when he had previously mentioned a cathartic aspect to him making the show, as a way of dealing with what he considered his own autism, obsessive compulsive otaku reclusive lifestyle after disputes on Nadia.

Sticking with Gainax, what a shame about its founder, Hiroyuki Yamaga founding Gainax to produce more commercial orientated work rather than being able to find a means to continue directing albeit on a much smaller scale after his debut feature, Wings of Honneamise, incredibly when he was only 24, scored by Ryuichi Sakamoto, with Hideaki Anno was one of four animation directors to give you an idea of its scale. A wing of Honneamise (1987) is one of if not the most expensive Japanese animated productions ever made, predictably but tragically it flopped upon theatrical release.

It was a very important film for me growing up, such a vivid and excessively detailed alternative world, and very much a one off even within the artistic, excessive, foolhardy attention to detail that characterised large scale late 80s Japanese animation, the ambivalent tone no doubt influenced by his script work on Gundam 0080. Sadly I haven’t seen it in many a year since my recorded VHS copy wore out so what I would think of it now but it has been released in the states a while back, rather oddly in HD-DVD/DVD or BluRay and DVD combo set by Bandai Visual USA. No wonder they went under when they expected people to guess which HD format would win out.

Since then I’ve been trying to persuade the European division of Bandai (Beez) to release it, but not much luck (understandably the Western anime bubble has burst and most fans have little interest in older films and shows) so any help in showing there’s interest in the film by emailing them at info(@)beez-ent.com would be greatly appreciated.

[jojo]

I sometimes think Takahata's inventiveness alone often supercedes the execution of his inventiveness. But that's for a whole other debate that I have no interest to participate in.

As much as people often say X talent should've stayed within Ghibli, I have to think there's a reason why so many animators leave that studio eventually to pursue their own goals. I have increasingly thought of Ghibli as "the machine", a corporate minded animation studio not so different from Disney. Like Disney, they'll experiment occasionally but they still don't deviate much from a set working system. In some ways they're just as guilty of limiting people's perception of what "good" anime is, the same way Disney/Pixar does with audiences over here concerning "good" animation. Increasingly I've heard mainstream critics say that other studios "shouldn't even bother" to compete with Pixar and they should just pack up and go home. Which is bad of course. But at the same time, everyone "tries" to be like Pixar instead of doing something else. So nothing ever progresses.

I have a lot of respect for Evangelion. It's certainly not my favourite anime nor is it a flawless TV series--far from it--but it was probably the most "overt" form of personal expression on a mainstream broadcast TV series that I've ever seen, before or since. And I think it visually captured the fragmented nature of anxiety disorders rather well--that is to say, it does seem to ring true of a guy who's experienced what he's writing about. Is it pleasant viewing? No. But it's got chutzpah, and I have to admire someone who just throws it up there and lets the audience deal with whether they like it or not.

It's unfortunate that Ghost in the Shell SAC seems to have ended its run for good. I was really enjoying it (much more so than the Oshii films) and I think its pessimistic attitude is a much needed breath of fresh air in today's landscape of fluffy anime escapism. I'll probably check out Moribito eventually to see how Kamiyama's holding up on a non-GITS show.

[akaten]

I sometimes think Takahata's inventiveness alone often supercedes the execution of his inventiveness. But that's for a whole other debate that I have no interest to participate in.

Isn't that precisely the time to qualify statements and engage in wider discussion? I somehow doubt we'll agree, as our tastes appear to differ marketably, I'd champion Mamoru Oshii's first Ghost in the Shell over the TV series anyday, beliveing that Oshii could have put the Individual Eleven concept to better use in the second film, and I'm more than happy to discuss it.

But right now I'm particularly interested as to your views on Studio Ghibli, I would suggest that your criticisms can just as easily be aimed at anime studios and production models as a whole as much as Ghibli itself, which despite Miyazaki's attempts to distance the himself from he, much like Oshii in fact, was in first working in television then really establishing themselves through film adaptations (Lupin III and Urusei Yatsura respectively) 'anime' - partial animation heavily derived from manga that has established certain types of stylistic designs, themes and narrative structures that are strictly adherred too.

Anyways regarding Anno, I did say in hindsight, as its all speculative but really I would put to you has Hideaki Anno had greater freedom away from Ghibli? I don't think so, if you look at Nausicaa, keeping in mind he was in his early 20s when he worked on the film, it seems to me he made a very special contribution to the film to the extent I'm wondering if the adapatation from Miyazaki's manga, the imagery of the atomic creatures throughout the film was influenced by his input, I genuinely think he'd be directing features on his terms if he had continued refining his craft. The other thing is not all talented animators can translate that talent into directing. Jin Roh (directed by Hiroyuki Okuira) being an example (animation director being Kenji Kamiyama) which despite wonderful production designs is a great failure. Perhaps instead of drawing out a one note Little Red Riding Hood allegory into a feature length, had they focused and refined an early sequence with girls used as couriers to transport explosives to protestors, who become suicide bombers when cornered by special forces it may have been a taut 15 minute short.

Back on track, I acknowledge that the lack of freedom, creative disputes, and low budgets lead to Evangelion becoming more inventive to hide the lack of budget, but I do insist that both Hideaki Anno (and Hiroyuki Yamaga) are examples of prodigious talent who never fulfilled their potential either out of career choices or perhaps a lack of inclination to take chances. Ultimately it may very well be that, despite the comparative amount of animation produced in Japan compared to elsewhere today there are very few avenues to be genuinely creative, so realistically if animators want work, it is only possible by making shows to fit TV station and sponsor backed television blocks. Another person who I'm less familiar with due to unavailability of certain works, but who I would consider for this category would be Hiroyuki Kitabuko responsible for key animation on Akira, directed a segment of late 80s animation showcase Robot Carnival and directed Roujin Z.

I'll freely admit therefore that my own responses towards Japanese animation are coloured by cherishing these isolated works or moments of inspiration within otherwise cookie cutter productions, that further reading find to be exceptions rather than the norm for the people involved, that personal works are neither sustainable or desirable for animes inbred and disinterested audience. Shoji Kawamori mostly known for Macross and his mechanical designs directed a promising hour long film about Kenji Miyazawa, released in the states on R1 DVD titled Spring & Chaos being an example worth seeking out.

[jojo]

Certainly a lot of other anime studios can take the blame for the lack of creativity in the current anime industry, but Ghibli is widely acknowledged as "the best" by many critics around so they have a certain standard and should be judged higher than just your regular run of the mill studio, like say Toei.

I would also like to add that Oshii had a hand in the basic setup of the Individual Eleven storyline, so it's not like he didn't have a chance to do something with it. Whether he would have put it to better use had he directed it, I cannot say. I know for sure he would have thrown in a whole bunch of textbook references and quoted long, obtuse passages from Corinthians, though.

I think it really depends what you look for in a director. You mention and focus a lot on craft, such as the sequence in Nausicaa that Anno worked on. And that's fine from a purely artistic standpoint. But a show lives and dies on its themes, its execution of the piece to a wider audience. It's all very well to "master" that big giant oak tree that you have in the painting you've been working on for the past 6 months, but in the end, what matters most is the painting as a whole.

As for unfulfilled potential--well, it depends what you mean. Could Anno and Yamaga have done more with their careers? Certainly. But if you were to make a couple of works and 1 of them is a tentpole in the history of anime, isn't that really a verification of their place in history? When you think of unfulfilled potential, you usually think of guys who've done solid work over the years but never a career-defining work. Guys like Junichi Sato come to mind--he's had a LONG, LONG list of very solid work under his belt, but you can't say any of his stuff has made a stamp on the industry, aside from maybe Sailor Moon (which was for mostly different reasons than solely artistic). Whether you "like" Anno and Yamaga's existing output or not, they have their place in history now.

[akaten]

I thought it was implied that I was saying Oshii should have used the concept for himself in my post, but perhaps my wording was off, but I'm glad you made it explicit as, along with the second Patlabor OVA for that matter his input was valuable, though 2nGig is still awful in my books, patronising lines such as "wretched proleteriat," would make even Akira Kurosawa cringe at their incomprehension regarding the underbelly of society, and highly derivative of Patlabor 2, including its worst aspects, heroes of justice nonsense, and the crude physical caricatures to signpost villans. It also blantatly steals the concept of tensions among Japanese military and refugees coming to a head from Gasaraki (1998) directed by Ryosuke Takahasi who would fit into your idea of solid vets who, but in this case Takahashi from what little I've seen (haven't viewed his adaptation of Osamu Tezuka's Phoenix for one thing) created two praise worthy works allbeit within the confines of anime convention, Armored Trooper Votom and more recently Flag, a series I need to get round to writing about at length if only to convince more people to watch it.

If you are asking me what could have been done with the Individual Eleven, and I'm getting away from Oshii to my own preoccupations here so excuse my idle filmmaking pipedreams for a moment here, the motif of the omnipotent Fantomas/Mabuse villan of Oshii finer works, in this case recalling the programmer who dies in the opening reel of Patlabor: The Movie I'd envisage would open with Yuko Mishima calls for the army to rise up only to attempt to commit suicide but ends up cutting too deep into his own gut. I would want to take the idea of the Individual Eleven (the militant nationlist youths from the early 30s) and have it preopted by a group who, like the West German Red Army Faction percive a sham democracy (which Japan most certainly is in many respects) receding into a return toward facism, carried out waves of crimes and heists in order to finance attacks against US and German military and civilian targets. Of course, would make of break it would be how nuanced the script is in handling this, would need to recognise that Germany and Japan were certainly not the same (problematic aspect being the facism which isn't applicable to Japan) and make stringent adjustments accordingly.

Back on track, the reason I focus on the 'craft' is due to the important key animation and animation direction, to use an analogy these positions are not too disimilar with director of cinematography in film, crucial in shaping to look, feel and motion of the work, and to round off the comparism inbetween work farmed out to near sweat shop labour in Japan and increasingly South Korea could be considered 2nd Unit work.

Finally while I acknowledge as you say Anno and Yamaga have alreayd cemented a place in history, I don't see why it is not valid to wonder what could have been much as cinephiles have their favourites who aren't finding regular avenues to work, and are overjoyed when they do, such as Terrence Davies. I don't see a film such as Wings of Honneamise as being a single work that we must be content with, heck they and a lot of other young animators throughout 80s were in their early 20s makings statments of intent, Robot Carnival is the epitome of this (crying out for Blu Ray) but that careers meander in fits and starts. Perhaps it was that many have lacked the initial success to do so, but I wonder if much of it is also they lack the savvy of Osamu Tezuka who far beyond establishing what we now call manga and anime with Astro Boy was able to master the balancing act of working on populist television and films but at the same time pursuing individual works. If only a boutique DVD label would attempt to compile and contextualize his shorts and experimental pieces.

So while you may like Ghibli when you consider how both Isao Takahata's Little Norse Prince and Lupin II: Castle of Cagliostro were considered costly failures upon initial release, it was to their great fortune that Suzuki, who impressied with Cagliostro, pushing it heavily in the anime magazine he was editing proposed they work together and form a studio that I persist is still a cut above the rest.

[lady wakasa]

If you could find all the volumes of Texhnolyze, I'd recommend this series -- except for the fact that it is now out of print in the US (due to the folding of Geneon USA). The most visually impressive dystopian series ever).

Sorry this is so late.

I was looking for some Geneon DVDs as Xmas gifts; I can tell you that rightstuf.com (one f) seems to have picked up a number of Geneon DVDs and is printing them in small batches (or something; when the inventory counter goes to zero it often gets replenished). The entire Texhnolyze set appears there right now for $134.98, with 316 in stock.

[AttitudeAJM]

Just got my hands on Rebuild of Evangelion: 01 You Are (not) Alone. At first I was apprehensive about a series of movies trying to retell such a great Anime. However, this was very exciting and changes plot points from the show. You do not need to have seen the show previously and the episodes that they do squish into one movie works flawlessly.

Plus the animation got a big overhaul.