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 Post subject: Re: Comic Books on Film
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:46 pm 
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Big Ben wrote:
So yeah about Justice League. Here's an article from The Wrap with some real explanations as to why it's as bad as it is.

Here's why the film was shoved out the door. Hilarious!

Quote:
One executive told TheWrap Tsujihara and Emmerich “wanted to preserve their bonuses they would be paid before the merger,” and were worried that “if they pushed the movie, then their bonuses would have been pushed to the following year and they might not still be at the studio.”


That's incredible. Take a loss over the film for personal benefit in the short term. Incredible.

I find amusing that they are now depending on Aquaman to continue this cinematic universe. Seriously, do they expect Wan, a guy who directs horror films, to provide a light, fun tone that the studio is now looking for? Even worse, do they really think that Jason Momoa can carry a whole film by himself the way Gal Gadot did with Wonder Woman? WB pushed themselves into a corner by rushing films without seeing the results first. Instead of regrouping, they keep digging a hole on this franchise. I'm not saying that the Arrowverse and its actors are the greatest, but man, those shows have been fun watching, something that these films, except Wonder Woman, lack. The CW DC shows just had a 4 part, 2-day crossover event with almost every hero from each show, and it blows away most of what WB has done in their cinematic universe.

WB reminds me of Fox and their continued quest to do a Fantastic Four film. If they don't like the source material, then give it to someone who does and will do a great job bringing it to the big screen.


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 Post subject: Re: Comic Books on Film
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:00 am 
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This is precisely why I'm hoping Aquaman fails, because, unless it's somehow amazing, with a sort of Deadpool-like-effect, it's not going to change the DC formula. And, for all the hype that Wonder Woman got, it was simply above-average, and even that couldn't do enough to save Justice League.

In fact, I think Wonder Woman 2 may not be as sure a bet as people think, because if the script and story aren't great, I wonder if it will have the legs of the first film. Remember, a lot of people (myself included) were fans of the Wonder Woman TV series, and therefore, even some non-comic fans had waited for a Wonder Woman film for 40+ years, so I wouldn't be surprised to learn a lot of people went out of sheer curiosity, and a desire to see something different. And remember, DC were in the unique position of having Wonder Woman's extended cameo in Batman v Superman be the highlight of that film, so that boosted the promise of her solo film quite a bit, too. But, the sequel won't have any of that built-in hype, so I think it may need to actually be better than the first one to make a ton of money, especially after opening weekend. Plus, Gadot sure as hell ain't gonna be workin' for no $300,000 salary on the sequel, and Jenkins is probably making more for the follow-up, too.

And consider how much responsibility would fall on Wonder Woman 2 if Aquaman (f**king Aquaman!) shits the bed next year? I mean, if Jenkins/Gadot somehow pull a Nolan/Bale and deliver a sequel that is The Dark Knight to their Batman Begins, then that would be fabulous, but we all know how rare such successes are, especially with blockbuster films.


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 Post subject: Re: Comic Books on Film
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:45 am 
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Still amazed on how the DC movies are mostly perceived as mediocre but somehow, WW and the Marvel movies arent.


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 Post subject: Re: Comic Books on Film
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:04 am 
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tenia wrote:
Still amazed on how the DC movies are mostly perceived as mediocre but somehow, WW and the Marvel movies arent.

Honestly, it's about like more than anything else, and it helps a lot if you like the actors and/or characters a lot. None of these films are honestly that great, but they are sometimes fun or moderately thrilling popcorn adventures. Of the major superhero movies released since 2005, there is maybe one bonafide amazing film, and that is The Dark Knight. After that, the other two Nolan films are very, very good, but from there, you get into very good "for a comic book movie", which is probably where Logan, Captain America: The Winter Soldier, any or all of the Iron Man films, Thor: Ragnarok and Captain America: Civil War would be (in that order) for me.

I actually hadn't seen any Marvel films since The Incredible Hulk and the first Iron Man film back in 2008, when in early 2014, I happened to notice a trailer for Captain America: The Winter Soldier, and discovered that Robert Redford was in it. That spurred me to get the intervening films on Blu-ray, so I could watch Winter Soldier in the theater, and since then, I've kept up with the series, mainly because they often cast actors I like (Jenny Agutter, Cate Blanchett, Glenn Close, Jeff Goldblum, Anthony Hopkins, Ben Kingsley, Robert Redford, Rene Russo, etc.) in smaller roles and I like seeing them on big screens again. I also like Robert Downey, Jr., and I feel he has elevated the Iron Man movies a lot, to where he can even make a movie like Captain America: Civil War much better than it would have been without him.

I am not nearly the fan of The Avengers or Guardians of the Galaxy films that everyone else seems to be, and Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2 was childish garbage, in my opinion. I will see Avengers: Infinity Pool (and likely the second one), mainly to watch it/them wrap up this "phase", and then I think I will be done, unless they give a major role to another actor I really enjoy in the future, which seems unlikely as most of those actors are now in their 40s and older.

Since Logan seems to really mean that Hugh Jackman is done with Wolverine, the obvious other exception is Deadpool, which doesn't fit with the others, and was just a damn fun movie, which was a bit naughty, and so refreshing. I will definitely see the sequel, and if that somehow maintains the quality of the first film, who knows from there.

I would also be up for any other interesting superhero films that are released, but the Marvel films aren't that, and while they are entertaining, I really wonder where they will go after 2019, and not in a way that suggests I want to see any other films, either.

In fact, like many people in the past thirty/forty years, I am much more of a Batman/Superman fan than any other hero(es), but it's just that the Snyder films, while visually interesting, have odd characterizations, and take the characters in bizarrely dark directions without just cause.

That's why I really can't wait for this era of superhero films to be over. With few exceptions, all we've had are films that are entertaining, but not that interesting, or re-watchable. Though I will admit, I do want to keep re-watching the Snyder films every once in a while, to try and understand what happened.


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 Post subject: Re: Comic Books on Film
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 7:18 am 
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I haven't seen all the very latest Marvel movies (Ragnarok and Civil War), but have in the end seen pretty much all of the other ones, and whether it's Age of Ultron, Iron Man 2 & 3, Captain America 2 or Doctor Strange, I found them all to range from mediocre to sometimes absolutely unbearable.
Even when fast-forwarding through it, I thought Age of Ultron would never end. Sadly, I don't expect Infinity War to be much better, because seemingly, the team behind these movies don't know how to make so many characters alive simultaneously.

Contrary to you, I liked a lot Guardians of the Galaxy 2, because it felt in a long time that Marvel wasn't just trying to have a "hub" movie for their next crossover but instead was trying to buff up their characters which, too often, simply aren't interestingly written. I didn't like so much what they tried to do with Raccoon because it felt to ham-fisted, but I liked a lot with they did with Star Lord, and even more Rondu.

Logan ? It felt like a R-rated movie that didn't have anything else to offer than, well, being R-rated. It's been a long time since I having the movie trying so hard to focus on something so pointless. In a way, I'm happy they didn't go the Deadpool route, meaning a dumb movie but hey it's gross and vulgar so it must be adult oriented ! But Logan didn't feel mature at all, it just felt like the usual super hero movie, except vaguely darker and gorier, but there was none of the emotional depth I expected to find.

The talents involved in these movies actually make things look even worse for me, because they feel wasted and very gimmicky. Redford in The Winter Soldier ? Oh sure that's an obvious wink-wink to 3 Days of the Condor, but The Winter Soldier is a dumb take on espionnage movie which is a massive misfire on this (on top of being awfully directed and shot).


So as a whole, if I had to grade all these, whether it's Marvel or DC, most of them would get grades between 3 and 6 out of 10, with only a handful faring better. That's why I never understand how some are perceived as so good and others so poor.

To me (and many others, at least in France), they're really all different shades of mediocrity, and that's including stuff like Wonder Woman.


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 Post subject: Re: Comic Books on Film
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:13 am 
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That's why it's so unfortunate that they are where all the time, money and investment end up going.

For me, I'd much rather see quality actors in quality films, but the dumbing down of cinema has meant that even if great actors get significant roles in quality films, most of the time, those films get small budgets, and consequently, end up on the smaller screens in the cinema, or worse, never end up at your cinema at all, unless you're lucky enough to live in New York City or Los Angeles.

For example, the other day, I had to watch Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri on one of the smallest screens at my local 24-screen multiplex, despite me seeing it on its first day in the theater. And why? Well, because all the major screens were taken up by Justice League or Coco (or occasionally, possibly Wonder), with the tanking comic book movie still spending at least most of each day on all the biggest screens, in spite of it opening ten days before.

The only brilliant and/or challenging films I've been able to see on the best screens have been the ones that get IMAX releases, or otherwise happen to be thought of as "commercial", which means it was Blade Runner 2049 in IMAX DMR on opening day, Coco at a Tuesday night "preview", and of course, the glorious Dunkirk, opening day in IMAX 15/70 (twice in a row, because it was a day long trip) and then again in standard 70mm at a theater closer to home. Otherwise, I'm stuck with the smaller screens, even on opening day, and at that point, with a 2K DCP for most of these films, a Blu-ray in my home theater setup gets uncomfortably close to the same quality, with a lot less hassle, and significantly more convenience.


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 Post subject: Re: Comic Books on Film
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:01 am 
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McCrutchy wrote:
That's why it's so unfortunate that they are where all the time, money and investment end up going.

It's hard to blame studios for trying to give what seemingly the audience is craving.
If people would definitely stop making these movies so profitable in most of the cases, studios would stop doing them, or at least slow down.
What seems extremely silly to me though is the absurd budget given to these. Can't they really be done for a bit cheaper ?


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 Post subject: Re: Comic Books on Film
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:12 am 
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They can most certainly be done for cheaper. Deadpool had such a limited budget they turned it into a self aware gag involving the X-Men Academy. Note, NSFW. Deadpool was made for 58 million and grossed 783 million. They can certainly make these films without a colossal budget and turn in a massive profit.


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 Post subject: Re: Comic Books on Film
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:40 pm 
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Big Ben wrote:
They can most certainly be done for cheaper. Deadpool had such a limited budget they turned it into a self aware gag involving the X-Men Academy. Note, NSFW. Deadpool was made for 58 million and grossed 783 million. They can certainly make these films without a colossal budget and turn in a massive profit.

The first Iron Man also had a modest budget and it made a massive profit. Still, I don't mind huge budgets that provides us with good effects, like Guardians of the Galaxy, as long as the film is good. While I agree that there are several of the Marvel films that are mediocre, like Iron Man 2, Thor 2, and Age of Ultron, most of the other ones are really good films, with some excellent ones like Winter Soldier, GotG 1 & 2 and Doctor Strange.

Hollywood will always be Hollywood and studios will imitate what is successful somewhere else and sometimes prevent from good, original projects coming out, but I've always said, there are good movies, of all genres, still being produced. Directors like Nolan have leveraged themselves into being able to do the films they want by doing superhero films and being successful at it. The same way buddy cop/reckeless cop/big guns action/comedy films dominated the 80's, now we have the era of the comic book film. It translate well from the medium it's sourced and as long as Marvel keeps doing it well, it will continue.


Last edited by dx23 on Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Comic Books on Film
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:05 pm 
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I agree with your sentiments for the most part. Hollywood is going to be Hollywood regardless of what anyone posts on this forum. And now that they've made those big bucks they're not going to stop anytime soon (At least Marvel.)

I'm more than willing to admit that I don't consider many of them "great". I think a majority of them are simple popcorn flicks that are worth their run-time if you're out on a date or with the kids. Aside from Logan (Which I really liked) I don't think I've seen a single one of these films that I legitimately thought was particularly interesting to me in the long term on any level. In fact in the time since this craze started I really only consider Logan and The Dark Knight to something that's really stuck in my brain.

I do however see one very interesting prospect for them and that's minority representation. Black Panther is going to be a big deal for my black friends and that cultural milestone is important. It's important to remember that superheroes are really popular with kids and in this current political climate (At least here in the US) having a black hero up on screen is really great for them.


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 Post subject: Comic Books on Film
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:52 pm 
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Black Panther also benefits from being directed by the only name I’ve heard of outside of Marvel. I know there’s been discussion about how these films are mostly studio films akin to the golden days but I’m hoping Coogler will give it some flair like he did for Creed.

Edit: Ok, Whedon but he sucks.


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 Post subject: Re: Comic Books on Film
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:01 am 
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Really? You hadn't heard of Shane Black, Taika Waititi or Kenneth Branagh?


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 Post subject: Re: Comic Books on Film
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:30 am 
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matrixschmatrix wrote:
Really? You hadn't heard of Shane Black, Taika Waititi or Kenneth Branagh?

Forgot about Black. Did Branagh do one of the Thor movies? I only saw Ragnarok and still don’t know about Waititi.


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 Post subject: Re: Comic Books on Film
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:32 am 
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Or Favreau ignoring quality for a moment. They've done surprisingly few pure journeymen considering the nature of these things.


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 Post subject: Re: Comic Books on Film
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:37 am 
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The Russo brothers have made several of them--are you not familiar with their TV work (Arrested Development, Community, Happy Endings)?


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 Post subject: Re: Comic Books on Film
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:47 am 
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swo17 wrote:
The Russo brothers have made several of them--are you not familiar with their TV work (Arrested Development, Community, Happy Endings)?

I know those shows but I don’t follow tv directors. It makes sense though why Russo brothers have had perhaps better quality films having come from producer-driven tv world.


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 Post subject: Re: Comic Books on Film
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:34 am 
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I mean, ultimately I don't think your point is an unfair one- Marvel seems generally to want a relatively anonymous house style, and the movies that escape that (Black's, Ragnarok, the Guardians movies) are the exception rather than the rule, to the degree that Marvel actually cut the legs out from under Ant-Man seemingly to enforce a more anonymous style. I think the Russo brothers are a good fit here- they do good, engaging work with whatever material they're handed, very much in a classic studio director Michael Curtiz kind of mold (and I don't think you're wrong that coming off of TV direction makes that easier for them.) I think Marvel is loosening up a bit, though- the only real 'who?' director of phase 3 is Scott Derrickson, who did Doctor Strange, and that actually has what is maybe the most interesting use of extensive cg of any movie in the MCU. (You could also add Jon Watts, who directed the new Spider-Man, but I don't think Feige and co were calling the shots on that one, so it probably doesn't really factor into a discussion of their artistic choices.) Meanwhile, you've got Coogler, Waititi, and James Gunn (who isn't a huge name, but who has a very clear signature to his work) pushing in the direction of more distinctive, more auteurist entries.

I do hope they don't shoot them for 3d anymore though- I greatly enjoyed Ragnarok but the ugly over-bright lighting for 3d turned a number of beautiful tableaux into ugly setpieces, which I don't know that good directors can necessarily prevent.


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 Post subject: Re: Comic Books on Film
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:27 am 
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The thing that I'm, perhaps over optimistically, hoping for is for all the weird and strange 'unofficial' comic book movie offshoots that turn up from around the world and put their own spins on similar material, but that is probably impossible in the same way as it was back in the 60s through to the 80s. I know that the Italian film industry has been in the doldrums for decades now, but I'm really missing the rough-and-ready equivalent of a Starcrash (incidentally this is how I'm imagining Christopher Plummer is going to appear in that re-jigged All The Money In The World film!) or Kinji Fukasaku's Message From Space to amusingly contrast against (or cash in on!) the thundering corporate might of a Star Wars franchise.

(Though I suppose it could be argued that we have been getting something like an 'international comic book adaptation' trend with adaptations of graphic novels like Persepolis!)


Last edited by colinr0380 on Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Comic Books on Film
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:55 am 
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It might be me being biased against all this wave of movies but I didn't feel any of the "auteur" hired by Marvel pushed any of their movies in a very distinctive personal way. Gunn made the Guardians fun and lighter and meta but the material was like this to being with. And all Black managed to do with IM3 was shoving an unneeded buddy movie that didn't save anything at all but further made the film stupider than it already was but in the end, I doubt these movies would be massively different if helmed by somebody else.


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 Post subject: Re: Comic Books on Film
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:29 am 
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Having only seen the 3rd X-Men directed by Brett Ratner and having a general idea of who the main characters are from trailers and bits and pieces from the other movies, I was surprised to find Logan something enjoyable just on it's own as a hybrid of hard-R action/drama and the more fantastical elements of that world. Things that were alluded to that I have no reference to didn't weigh it down much for me* and I found the idea of the comic books themselves as a plot device very clever.

[*]
[Reveal] Spoiler:
Just before he's killed off am I to believe that Richard E. Grant character is Magento's son? Or is it someone else?


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 Post subject: Re: Comic Books on Film
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:29 pm 
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In regards to flyonthewall's question about Logan:

[Reveal] Spoiler:
No he's the man who created a sort of eugenics thing that's put into corn syrup which prevents the mutant gene from activating on the genome essentially ensuring no new mutants are born. One of the concepts in the film is that mutants are to be created by private companies and monetized as seen with the Logan clone and all the young children. He's not a mutant bad guy just a corporate one.


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 Post subject: Re: Comic Books on Film
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:16 pm 
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[Reveal] Spoiler:
Sounds very like Scanners!


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 Post subject: Re: Comic Books on Film
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:48 pm 
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colinr0380 wrote:
The thing that I'm, perhaps over optimistically, hoping for is for all the weird and strange 'unofficial' comic book movie offshoots that turn up from around the world and put their own spins on similar material, but that is probably impossible in the same way as it was back in the 60s through to the 80s. I know that the Italian film industry has been in the doldrums for decades now, but I'm really missing the rough-and-ready equivalent of a Starcrash (incidentally this is how I'm imagining Christopher Plummer is going to appear in that re-jigged All The Money In The World film!) or Kinji Fukasaku's Message From Space to amusingly contrast against (or cash in on!) the thundering corporate might of a Star Wars franchise.

(Though I suppose it could be argued that we have been getting something like an 'international comic book adaptation' trend with adaptations of graphic novels like Persepolis!)

Closest modern equivalent I can think of is Empires of the Deep, a Chinese $130 million 3D mermaid epic that was basically jumping on the Avatar bandwagon, but sadly it's never been released.


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 Post subject: Re: Comic Books on Film
PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:43 pm 
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Oh my goodness, that incessant temp track music is hilarious


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 Post subject: Re: Comic Books on Film
PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:14 pm 
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Gore Verbinski has left the Gambit movie, and Fox has delayed the X-Men horror spin-off New Mutants to February 2019 from its planned April bow. Deadpool 2 has now been pushed up to May 18th, only two weeks after Avengers and a week before Solo’s supposed release.


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