The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

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Drucker
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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2017)

#176 Post by Drucker » Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:07 pm

More importantly I thought 40 minutes of the film were completely edited? I would hope that would be the template for the tone of this.

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hearthesilence
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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2017)

#177 Post by hearthesilence » Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:54 pm

That's what I heard too. Think about all the great "lost albums" that were only partially sequenced, like Big Star's third or Jimi Hendrix's First Rays of the New Rising Sun - some of the work was done but you still have endless arguments on what would've been the final sequence.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2017)

#178 Post by beamish13 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:19 pm

That 40 minute rough cut/pitch reel is what Gary Graves showed to would-be completion investors like George Lucas and Clint Eastwood (who really watched it just to study John Huston for White Hunter, Black Heart). It's apparently out on some torrents now. :-$

I couldn't be happier with Netflix making a documentary to complement this. It's the best way to appease
purists who will only see this film as a facsimile of what could have been. Fingers crossed a 35mm print is
shown for general audiences a la Okja (which garnered some laughs at the New Beverly when Netflix's logo appeared).

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Roger Ryan
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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2017)

#179 Post by Roger Ryan » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:22 am

Drucker wrote:More importantly I thought 40 minutes of the film were completely edited? I would hope that would be the template for the tone of this.
Given Welles' working methods, saying 40 minutes of the film were "completely edited" would not be the best term to use. Welles would begin editing individual scenes out of sequential order according to his interest and the availability of footage; some of these scenes would be very tightly-edited (the oft-seen footage of Jake Hannaford's arrival at his birthday party is cut, some might say "over-cut", to an inch of its life) while other scenes would be loosely-assembled with multiple takes of the same line or alternate angles of the same action. When Welles began the final assembly of one of his features, combining all of these scenes in sequential order, the early editing of the individual scenes could be changed dramatically to work better within the context of the whole film. Not only would Welles tighten up a loose assembly, but he might significantly shorten sequences he had "locked-in" a year or two earlier, re-locate the footage to some other place in the film than he had originally intended, or discard the footage altogether. Actually, this approach is pretty standard for most filmmakers going from a rough assembly, or work-print, to a fine edit.

The 40 minutes that Welles edited himself should really be seen as a collection of rough cuts that probably would have been altered in some way had Welles the opportunity to get close to a fine edit. While Welles obviously intended a frenetic approach to the cutting (unmistakably present in the work-print edits), the edited footage he left behind should not be taken as gospel. As it turned out, most of the 40 minutes that Welles cut assembles shots for the "movie-within-the-movie" which, arguably, should not be the focus of the story (this has been a source of contention for years - co-screenwriter Oja Kodar believes the footage of the film the Hannaford character is trying to finish should take up 50% of the running time of The Other Side of the Wind while the existing drafts of the screenplay note the Hannaford film footage as appearing only sporadically).

Equally important, Welles never had access to all of the footage he shot for The Other Side of the Wind; the current producers do. While it might sound heretical for a Welles fan to say this, a fresh attempt to create a feature out of this footage without the obligation to edit around the chunks of material that Welles cut might be the best approach.

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big ticket
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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles)

#180 Post by big ticket » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:26 pm

Although it still feels absolutely unreal, it appears that a [rough?] cut of the film has screened for the first time.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2017)

#181 Post by albucat » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:31 pm

Honestly, I find this to be far too soon to be confident in what they've done. Given the amount of footage, doing the best possible job by Cannes felt like a stretch--this feels like a rush job more concerned with completion than anything else.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2017)

#182 Post by movielocke » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:41 am

albucat wrote:Honestly, I find this to be far too soon to be confident in what they've done. Given the amount of footage, doing the best possible job by Cannes felt like a stretch--this feels like a rush job more concerned with completion than anything else.
if you’re working mostly from Welles circle takes it isn’t that long to pull together an assembly cut simply because films shoot so little footage especially compared to contemporary filmmaking. Computers are much faster at making all your footage available than cutting on film like Welles did.

If you’re second guessing Welles and trying every take regardless it will take longer. Basically it depends on the script supervisor and Welles instructions.

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Roger Ryan
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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2017)

#183 Post by Roger Ryan » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:34 pm

This was just a screening for "friends and family" after four (or possibly more) months of active post-production. I think it's unfair to pre-judge the competency of the edit until the public sees a finished version. Understandably, everything on this project has taken so long (four years of pre-production, six years of shooting, forty years of legal entanglements) that this active post-production phase seems to have, comparatively, whisked by.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2017)

#184 Post by albucat » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:49 pm

Let's go only from what the producer has said: There are "over 1000 rolls of 16mm and 35mm film," including "over 10,000 shots." Added to this, there are audio issues, considering that "In many cases, the shots are missing slates, so the sound has to be hand-synched." All of this makes for, "way more material than anyone thought."

Films back then may have shot less footage, but we're not talking about a hollywood picture here. "Second guessing Welles" - how is that even possible? We don't have his cut to second guess. So far as we're aware, Welles left no instructions for how to complete things, rather he was simply done shooting and knew that he could put things together himself. His working methods precluded the type of memo that might editing easier--remember, he LOVED editing and wanted to work on that himself. If they already knew which takes to use etc. then they wouldn't have scanned all 1000 rolls into 4k, they would've just taken what was needed.

Assuming that this film has more in common with F for Fake than his earlier pictures, judging from both the period of production and the footage we've seen of it thus far at the AFI ceremony, we're talking about an immense undertaking. Computers are much faster, but they're not magic--I used to work as an editor for television, I have pretty good knowledge of how long these things take. A lot of it depends on how much of a crap you give about a project. If they have a really solid rough cut, then working on fine tuning from now until Cannes makes sense. But going through that much material to find the best takes is a lengthy pain in the ass.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2017)

#185 Post by Roger Ryan » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:09 pm

The Wellesnet article has been updated to note that "editing began less than three months ago" (which may be accurate or simply acknowledges the date when the producers announced that editing had begun). The article also includes this new paragraph:

One of the audience members was enthusiastic to Wellesnet about the two-hour movie, but tight-lipped on details. What was shown at the "friends & family screening" was far more advanced than a rough cut, but it was not a finished film.

Take that as you may. There will, undoubtedly, be plenty who will complain about the end results (hell, I might be one of them), but after waiting forty years to see the film (first read about it as an "in-progress feature" in 1978), I'm just happy the thing is close to being released and that some of the participants who worked on it are still alive to see it.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2017)

#186 Post by movielocke » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:44 pm

albucat wrote:So far as we're aware, Welles left no instructions for how to complete things, rather he was simply done shooting and knew that he could put things together himself.
A script supervisor would have the script marked up as shooting happens including the on-the-set preference (circle takes), creating an assembly from the script supervisor's script is where everyone starts edit from and they'd still have that resource. They might note have a touch of evil memo, but they have standard production documentation. Even lab orders are useful resources if you're lacking other information.

10,000 shots is not very much. the audio is an issue, but that is why films have assistant editors, the assistants probably had a huge amount of the syncing done before an editor arrived, simply because paying an editor to sit around doing nothing while waiting on the assistants to do their jobs is foolish. By the time an editor arrived, a lot of these problems would have been solved already.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2017)

#187 Post by Wellesnet » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:43 pm

The negative arrived in Los Angeles in March and it was 4K scanned, sorted, logged and studied over a period of several months. The actual editing began sometime in October. Bob Murawski, a pretty talented and well-regarded editor, likely had 12 weeks or more to put together a cut suitable for screening. It's not a rush job, especially since there are Welles edited scenes and notes to use as a guide. Cannes (if that is where it debuts) is still four months away, so there is plenty of time to have a polished edit ready for the premiere.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

#188 Post by whaleallright » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:00 pm

I don't envy the editors on this project. Welles's editing—especially his percussive sound editing, and especially in his late films—is so distinctive and idiosyncratic, and goes against many of the reigning dicta about what constitutes "good editing." So they either have to try to emulate his style, a daunting task, or to make something more conventional out of his footage and sound recordings, which would probably be a travesty. (There seems to be little in the resumes of the assigned editors to suggest they'd be particularly suited to the former, but who knows?) I'm interested to see the results, and to what extent they feel like genuine and not ersatz Welles.


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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

#190 Post by Kirkinson » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:04 pm

Best film news of the year.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

#191 Post by Big Ben » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:14 pm

The Welles.net account also confirmed in a reply that they're still on track for a Cannes premiere although it's not locked in yet.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

#192 Post by Dylan » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:33 pm

The announcement that Michel Legrand is scoring The Other Side of the Wind makes me feel like I'm in a dream. But here we are. This is obviously great and exciting news, but I'll go a step further and say that I don't believe there's another composer in the history of cinema who is better suited to this project.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

#193 Post by Persona » Mon Mar 19, 2018 5:40 pm

yeah, that is just amazing. to be honest I didn't even realize Legrand was even still scoring projects until this news. I think back on some of his work with Godard, a personal favorite being My Life to Live, and you couldn't have asked for a better composer for this project.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

#194 Post by albucat » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:41 pm

I know I'm usually the voice of skepticism here, but this is just flat-out great news. A perfect choice, and one that gives me a lot more faith in the overall production.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

#195 Post by Roger Ryan » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:38 am

In addition to the Legrand news, an Indiegogo update over the weekend stated that the final edit is "locked" with just color correction and some sound work to be completed (Legrand began composing and scoring the film in December). A photo showing color correction being done on a scene from the "film-within-the-film" shows that the footage appears to be cropped to 1.85:1 which may indicate a mix of aspect ratios to help differentiate the "film-within-the-film" from the documentary-style footage of Hannaford's birthday party.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

#196 Post by Calvin » Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:11 pm

An Indiegogo update weighing in on Netflix's decision to withdraw it from Cannes:
As news of Netflix’s decision to withdraw all of its films from the Cannes Film Festival spreads throughout the film community, I’d like to let you know that we fought long and hard to persuade Netflix to keep The Other Side of the Wind in the festival. Our film was selected to screen Out of Competition, as an Official Selection in the Grand Théâtre Lumière, so it was not directly effected by the ban.

What’s sad and most difficult to come to terms with is that everyone loses in this decision — Cannes, Netflix, film lovers and all of us who worked so hard on this historic endeavor.

The film is a marvel. Cannes Festival Director Thierry Frémaux deemed it “an extraordinary film, much more than a historical film… a message from [Orson Welles] to the world of cinema today.” No other festival premiere will rival what Cannes intended for the films. Their placement and reception will live only in our collective imagination.

Granted, I’m conflicted in my emotions. There would be no The Other Side of the Wind without Netflix, but that doesn’t lessen my disappointment and heartbreak.

Sincerely,

Filip
Beatrice Welles made a personal appeal to both Ted Sarandos and Thierry Frémaux

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

#197 Post by FrauBlucher » Sat May 05, 2018 8:19 am


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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

#198 Post by diamonds » Sat May 05, 2018 11:58 am

The full article it's pulled from is worth the read as well, with insight into the completion process. Based on Johnson's comments it sounds like they did try to maintain Welles's unorthodox editing style. Bogdanovich sounds pretty pleased too. Between that and the earlier news about Legrand, it's hard not to be incredibly excited for this.

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Re: The Other Side of the Wind (Orson Welles, 2018)

#199 Post by FrauBlucher » Mon May 28, 2018 6:51 pm


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