Sadomasochism in Film

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TMDaines
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Re: Sadomasochism in Film

#51 Post by TMDaines » Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:34 am

I like how "facesitting" is construed to be potentially "life-endangering".

Working in the public sector, I can easily see how unfit-for-purpose conservative/nanny-state legislation, such as this, comes to pass from my day-to-day working experiences.

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warren oates
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Re: Sadomasochism in Film

#52 Post by warren oates » Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:34 am

This is one way in which the U.S. Constitution seems like a way better starting point -- almost always deferring to freedom of expression above all else. These little details of the U.K.'s system surprise me sometimes with their reactionary effects. In much the same way that, absent the strong protections for journalistic speech, your silly libel laws enable rich individuals and corporations (Scientology, Putin) to silence critics and intimidate publishers with the mere threat of potential future lawsuits.

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matrixschmatrix
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Re: Sadomasochism in Film

#53 Post by matrixschmatrix » Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:13 pm

Well, I don't know that I'd hold the American journalistic system as one particularly free of the control of rich individuals and corporations, but I suspect that's a different debate.

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warren oates
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Re: Sadomasochism in Film

#54 Post by warren oates » Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:38 pm

Definitely. You could get pretty granular about it if you wanted, but, with the legal protections they enjoy, even the most besieged American journalists like expats by necessity Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras only need the backing of a single rich individual (like the ones behind The Intercept or RADiUS TWC) to give them a platform and to thwart the efforts of scores of other powerful interests in suppressing their reporting. The national security state has a pretty far reach in the U.S., but I can't imagine anything like the hard drive destruction the U.K. Guardian was bullied into happening in the offices of the Washington Post or the NYT (where an insidious form of voluntary insidery self-censorship, at least in the past decade, has been more of a problem). Anyway, the two much more clear-cut examples I was talking about above concern British publishers' refusals to release Lawrence Wright's recent book about Scientology and Karen Dawisha's new book about Putin -- not because they had any qualms about the reporting, but only because they didn't want to deal with defending the books against lawsuits.

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colinr0380
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Re: Sadomasochism in Film

#55 Post by colinr0380 » Tue Dec 02, 2014 12:54 pm

Somehow this all must link back to the Paddington movie getting a PG rating. :-k
TMDaines wrote:I like how "facesitting" is construed to be potentially "life-endangering".
John Waters might disagree with you!

And alternatively Monty Python extolling the virtues!

flyonthewall2983
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Re: Sadomasochism in Film

#56 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:08 am

To bring this back to topic a little, it seems that most recently Preaching To The Perverted was restored thanks to a successful Kickstarter fund and is available to purchase here. I actually might buy it, as I didn't bother with it much before but reading into it has made me more curious now.



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Re: Sadomasochism in Film

#59 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Thu Dec 18, 2014 6:30 pm

^ that cocking about aside, I might be willing to forgive the expected success of Fifty Shades of Grey if it means films (and I would say counterprogramming) like The Duke of Burgundy are given the greenlight.

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Re: Sadomasochism in Film

#60 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:17 pm

The Ceremony, about Catherine Robbe-Grillet, widow of Alain Robbe-Grillet. This Vanity Fair article gives a good description of the life she has lead, her romance with Alain and current relationships she is in. It was a fascinating read and I'm sure the film won't be any less than that.
Last edited by flyonthewall2983 on Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lost Highway
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Re: Sadomasochism in Film

#61 Post by Lost Highway » Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:59 am

Hellraiser is strongly informed by S&M imagery and I believe Clive Barker likes a bit of leather.

Fassbinder was into kink and while Querelle may be the obvious film to mention in terms of iconography, I find The Bitter Tears of Petra Von Kant a more interesting way of dealing with an S&M relationship.

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Re: Sadomasochism in Film

#62 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:54 am

I'm sure it's not the case with all horror films that use such aesthetics, but it's bothered me that some have used it to either unwittingly or knowingly demonize SM activity. But I'd be more willing to put that on the shoulders of cop shows and "erotic thrillers" that have done much the same with it over the years too. There is a long, long history of kinky themes in horror movies. Some lately have been riffing on 50 Shades which I find a little funny.
flyonthewall2983 wrote:The Ceremony, about Catherine Robbe-Grillet, widow of Alain Robbe-Grillet. This Vanity Fair article gives a good description of the life she has lead, her romance with Alain and current relationships she is in. It was a fascinating read and I'm sure the film won't be any less than that.
Watched this yesterday. I was actually quite moved, more by the interview segments than the actual ceremonies. That absolute love and devotion to someone who rewards it in mostly punishing ways is something quite different than what I seem to find around me, which isn't too far from the American ideal of love and devotion but sheds into something different when time allows it. I'm sure that's just as much the case in other countries too, and Robbe-Grillet's life is unique in it's bourgeois trappings compared to the other-wise middle-class majority of kinky folk.
Last edited by flyonthewall2983 on Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lost Highway
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Re: Sadomasochism in Film

#63 Post by Lost Highway » Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:21 am

flyonthewall2983 wrote:I'm sure it's not the case with all horror films that use such aesthetics, but it's bothered me that some have used it to either unwittingly or knowingly demonize SM activity. But I'd be more willing to put that on the shoulders of cop shows and "erotic thrillers" that have done much the same with it over the years too. There is a long, long history of kinky themes in horror movies. Some lately have been riffing on 50 Shades which I find a little funny.
The Cenobites in Hellraiser aren't evil, they are amoral. They provide a service for those who actively seek it. Unfortunately the fools who get ripped to shreds by them don't bother to arrange a decent safeword. "Aaargh" doesn't cut it.

At least Clive Barker is a film-maker to use this imagery who himself is (or was, I don't know) part of the BDSM community. As a gay horror fan I sometimes struggle to justify my love for politically deeply incorrect depictions of non-mainstream sexuality and gender, but then horror films deal with irrational eruptions of the Id and that can get a little messy.

flyonthewall2983
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Re: Sadomasochism in Film

#64 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:24 am

Did some Googling and this came up.
BAS: To what extent did BDSM inspire the writing of The Hellbound Heart?
CB: Well, I've always had a toe in that world and I'm interested in it, and in my younger days, one of my sources of great pride was that I did an illustration. It went into a magazine called S & M in London, and the magazine was arrested for the obscenity of my illustration. I also think that one of the points of pleasure has been seeing how the mythology of Hellraiser and the imagery of Hellraiser has in its turn influenced the BDSM scene. You know, it's been wonderful to see bodies that are covered in tattoos from Hellraiser and scenes played out that are a complete homage to the Hellraiser movies.
BAS: The biggest compliment an artist can be paid is when life imitates his art.
CB: Absolutely. I love it when people find it sexual. So yes, it was influenced by BDSM, and I guess it has come full circle.

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Jean-Luc Garbo
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Re: Sadomasochism in Film

#65 Post by Jean-Luc Garbo » Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:53 am

That's interesting to know Barker had a prior history with the scene. I'd been under the impression the look of the Cenobites was something one of the members of Coil had suggested to him.

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Re: Sadomasochism in Film

#66 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:58 am

flyonthewall2983 wrote:Remedy (somewhat NSFW), a film written and directed by someone I've come across on a fetish website I'm on, and have talked to directly a few times, is having quite the difficulty getting off the ground. Which to me is sad because it seems to have come from a real place, and with the 50 Shades movie looming, would act as a proper alternative. It has a Kickstarter account that's been poorly funded so far, which is sad because it's been a long journey for her so far to have it come this close and not get the needed support. Fortunately there's a premiere in Seattle soon, which could help it get seen.

I should say at this point I'm not trying to be a shill for this, something I've been accused of once this week by someone. Not that I'd expect it from anyone here, but the previous experience was embarrassing enough (looking back, I should have gone through proper channels and it likely wouldn't have happened that way) that I feel the need to say as much now.
Remedy is now available on iTunes, Amazon, YouTube and others to rent and own. Here's a review I wrote for Letterboxd.

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Re: Sadomasochism in Film

#67 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Mon Mar 23, 2020 10:34 am

I watched Dogs Don't Wear Pants last night. Pekka Strang played the titular character in Tom Of Finland, and really gave a rather affecting performance in that. It was immediately interesting to me he would be in something like this, which takes another view at the subject of fetishism. In line with that, his performance was different enough that I removed any association with the other film. That said I wish the film focused more on Krista Kosonen's character, the dominatrix he finds himself infatuated with. It's a twisted love story, even among some of the films cited here. All a bit over the top compared to the reality, though not so far from it. D/s love is particularly intense, and it's rare films get that. This doesn't. Secretary comes close, but cloaked in that rom-com coating which perhaps made it palatable enough to get the green light.

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Re: Sadomasochism in Film

#68 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Sat May 16, 2020 12:08 pm

Marcy Learns Something New is a nice, cute short starring Rachel Dratch that has a very humane touch to it all, and approaches the topic in such a straight-forward way it adds to the overall sweetness of it. NSFW (brief nudity), if you still have W to go to.

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Re: Sadomasochism in Film

#69 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Mon Oct 11, 2021 4:30 pm

With it in mind that CSI is making a comeback in new clothing, I’m reminded that Lady Heather was maybe the only reason to watch, and how the writers had the character speaking talking points known within the community that weren’t really ever explored in television or movies before. Melinda Clarke, other than fitting the role in every aesthetic way, actually did a hell of a job with what she was given and had a good chemistry with William Petersen as the two characters were more attracted to each others intellect first. I was generally dismissive of the show but I was impressed at least in that regard, before kink was treated as a joke and from a distance by even serious shows like Law & Order. Dismissive in this case at least because being on a crime show it still gave kink that dangerous sheen Hollywood can give most anything if they try hard enough.

SMK
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Re: Sadomasochism in Film

#70 Post by SMK » Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:03 pm

Hi, I hope it’s okay for me to leave this message here. My name is Sophie Monks Kaufman. I’m a film journalist from London researching a 20th anniversary piece on the film Secretary to be published online at BBC Culture celebrating it as a sex positive film ahead of its time. I just had an in-depth conversation with Steven Shainberg. I’m now looking to speak to people who saw it, ideally at the time of release, for whom its depiction of BDSM chimed. Happy to give you a pseudonym if you’re interested in talking but prefer to remain anonymous. Conscious that I reached out to you, flyonthewall, a bit awkwardly, over Twitter, so will absolutely take the hint and not ask again if this message receives no response!

My email address is sophie@tcolondon.com if anyone in this forum is reading and wants to reach out to talk about Secretary.

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colinr0380
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Re: Sadomasochism in Film

#71 Post by colinr0380 » Thu Mar 10, 2022 4:35 am

I don't know if it would fit in with the thesis of your article but a very interesting thing about Secretary is that it comes as the climax (oo-er!) of that amazing run of James Spader roles throughout the 1990s as a kind of sexually charged (though often compromised, if not an outright baddie) WASP-ish figure ambiguously hovering around the edges of illicit behaviour and if not the main character himself is usually the one beckoning the main character into joining him by dropping their repressive societal shackles. Or rather putting different ones on!

Sex, Lies and Videotape and Crash are big ones of course, but also films such as White Palace and Storyville (directed by Twin Peaks co-creator Mark Frost). Even in something like Wolf he is the only member of the main trio who appears to be really into the whole heightened senses thing rather than feeling conflicted about it! But that being a more mainstream film, he has to be more specifically a bad guy there!

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Re: Sadomasochism in Film

#72 Post by flyonthewall2983 » Sun Mar 13, 2022 3:12 pm

Just want to thank, here, Ms. Kaufman for what was an illuminating conversation about the film and it’s themes. I watched the film last night for the first time in awhile, informed and invigorated by the memories surrounding how it affected me shortly after it’s release, as someone not entirely comfortable with myself. Art can be sometimes a real pat on the back about these things, and realizing the totality of what it meant and when it came out, maybe makes it all that much better a film to me, even after years of dismissing some troubling aspects to it to the detriment of the picture as a whole.

beamish14
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Re: Sadomasochism in Film

#73 Post by beamish14 » Sun Mar 13, 2022 7:16 pm

colinr0380 wrote:
Thu Mar 10, 2022 4:35 am
I don't know if it would fit in with the thesis of your article but a very interesting thing about Secretary is that it comes as the climax (oo-er!) of that amazing run of James Spader roles throughout the 1990s as a kind of sexually charged (though often compromised, if not an outright baddie) WASP-ish figure ambiguously hovering around the edges of illicit behaviour and if not the main character himself is usually the one beckoning the main character into joining him by dropping their repressive societal shackles. Or rather putting different ones on!

Sex, Lies and Videotape and Crash are big ones of course, but also films such as White Palace and Storyville (directed by Twin Peaks co-creator Mark Frost). Even in something like Wolf he is the only member of the main trio who appears to be really into the whole heightened senses thing rather than feeling conflicted about it! But that being a more mainstream film, he has to be more specifically a bad guy there!

Part of the reason why I love Bad Influence so much is because it completely subverts what you expect from Spader, as he's the one taken under the spell of Rob Lowe.

Thank you for mentioning the ridiculously underrated White Palace. Based on a beautiful novel from a writer who only published one other book, it's a gem that has never received a halfway decent home video presentation.

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therewillbeblus
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Re: Sadomasochism in Film

#74 Post by therewillbeblus » Mon Feb 06, 2023 2:25 am

Just watched Nikos Nikolaidis' Singapore Sling this evening, and its genre-defying madness is some kind of genius. This is more than an expressionist Art film's attempt to reconfigure Preminger's Laura through John Waters' sense of humor, though that wouldn't be a bad prompt to start describing the feel. While funny, provocative, and playful within trappings of noir, exploitation, horror, and self-reflexive Brechtian disruptions - to prompt questions of unreliable narration by giving us multiple narrators who are far from sound mind - the film is also operating on a level of sincerity that cannot be easily defined. I suppose this is why the film becomes thread-appropriate - it could've gone in the 90s, or noir, or horror, or really any number of threads here - but it's undefinable authenticity is rooted in sexuality, which is enigmatic and felt rather than reductive and explainable. There's a lot of sadomasochism in this film, some of which may come off as silly, disturbing, and erotic, but each scene is really all of these things and more rather than pivoting from one impression to the other. The film boasts a strong resistance to fragment these reactions apart thanks to Meredyth Herold's layered performance. She may be insane, but why? Because of trauma, being locked away from society, repressed as a submissive all her life, or inherent mental illness? Is she actually sublimating her issues in a healthy manner given these conditions, liberating herself to organic or constructed desires? And who cares what the source is if they're there and part of her identity, acted upon with agency by her? Is she even submissive (the relationship is a switch one, but she is the 'daughter', and yet seems to hold more of the cards than anyone else)? Now, these are provocative questions themselves, because I'm pretty sure the stuff she does in this film is in no way "healthy" or "moral" or really defendable from our vantage points. But that's the beauty of this film: Nikolaidis transports us into a chamber so foreign and boundary-pushing, with a character like Herold who is star-striking in her alluring nature, that we cannot deny the value of her experience- no matter how sad or absurd or unabashedly sensual it is.

We can understand the detective's obsession with a Laura who looks like (and may be) her, because she constitutionally produces pheromones that pierce through the screen into the audience's senses. This film is unhinged eroticism, pitched as both an exaggerated joke and as a genuine abstract projection of what perhaps anybody's own preferences and instinctual responses might look like if the floodgates were left entirely open, growing up in a secluded household without an opportunity to build social skills or inhibit those impulses. So, was being sheltered away a good thing or a bad thing? Well that's not so simple either. Sure, killing people isn't cool, but not curbing desire might be. There's ambiguity here- Herold likely was assaulted as has suffered a lot, but how much of this is an elaborate game of kink play taken to the logical extreme? It's also not insignificant that things only go south once a third party comes in to stay and alter the dynamics- something that simultaneously robs and frees Herold of her life as she knows it. That's already likely too much analysis for this film's poetic manifestation of eroding norms - it's aggressively perverse, documenting deteriorating orientation to reality and identity, and yet urgently exemplifying the unconditional merits of sexuality way past the collectively defined margins, as a kind of reclaiming of self. I suspect people will either find this brilliant or hate it. Me, I couldn't take my eyes off the screen.

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