The amount of drudgery involved is neither here nor there. It's much easier now to create CGI effects than to do so practically, which is why so many films opt for it. It is not that there is no difficulty involved, just that there is less, and that CGI effects are much easier to create and integrate than practical effects.knives wrote:Creating effective CGI isn't that easy if that's your argument. There are many hours of tedious work involved and just one frame of animation has a lot of working components to it. There are reasons why CGI is generally not as effective, but that isn't one in the least.
New Films in Production
- Mr Sausage
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:02 pm
- Location: Canada
Re: New Films in Production
- knives
- Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm
Re: New Films in Production
Fine, but what does that have to do with their effectiveness. You yourself say it is easier to integrate them into the film.
- swo17
- Bloodthirsty Butcher
- Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
- Location: SLC, UT
Re: New Films in Production
CGI is effective to the viewer (to me, anyway) to the extent that it can't be recognized as CGI. It may be more cost effective than practical effects in a lot of cases, but that doesn't necessarily translate into more convincing effects.
- knives
- Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm
Re: New Films in Production
My problem with Sausage's comments is that it insinuates that something like Zodiac is inherently less impressive than it's practical effects brothers. That's not something that you can predict until you've seen the world that they're making. With the exception of the flying cars nothing in the original movie would go beyond the Zodiac style of CGI so I have no reason to believe it can't be that impressive.
- John Cope
- Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:40 pm
- Location: where the simulacrum is true
Re: New Films in Production
This is really tough for me as I very much feel as though I have lived with the original film for most of my life (and I guess I have after a fashion). It was hugely impactful on me at an age in which I was open to be shaped by such experiences, I think. So it is precious and dear to me. So I don't know what to do with this news.
I agree in essence with knives in that what can best be hoped for at this point is that the opportunity allows for us to get a rare look at an artist re-engaging with his own most pivotal work, reflecting upon it and even maybe reassessing it. But Scott is not Lynch or Kubrick or someone I inherently trust to draw something worthwhile out of that opportunity. I was a huge fan and supporter for many years but this has waned over time and I am much more critical of his work and its seemingly indifferent capitulation to commercial cinema dictates. He just doesn't seem particularly interested in his art anymore or his craft or whatever you'd care to call it. And, yes, I know there are many who would argue he never was, that he and Lyne and Parker, et al. should have been flushed to start. Clearly I don't agree with that.
But just as clearly (from my perspective at least) is the fact that Scott's greatest accomplishments are far behind him at this point; as I've suggested elsewhere, I would say his last flat out masterpiece is well over twenty years ago now. The stuff since then has been a mixed bag to say the least and this last decade in particular has been especially frustrating and I say that as one of the very few people apparently who liked his Robin Hood and, in fact, like it a lot. What I'm hoping is that there is some unconscious symmetry on display in his work with Gladiator and Robin Hood (mirror images of one another) framing an especially commercial period and with Kingdom of Heaven (another variation on same) providing a mid-period pivot point. I hope that because it is an understatement to say that the Ridley Scott of 2011 is not the Ridley Scott of 1981. It's hard to imagine the latter Scott ever making anything as uninspired as A Good Year or as rote and utterly forgettable as Body of Lies. He flourishes with a good screenwriter, that much we know, so best of luck on the search there. I am wary of Lindelof's involvement in Prometheus but I am nontheless very hopeful for that picture in expectation that it might mark a new, less stupefyingly safe and more radical direction for Scott's cinema. But does he even have it in him anymore?
I agree in essence with knives in that what can best be hoped for at this point is that the opportunity allows for us to get a rare look at an artist re-engaging with his own most pivotal work, reflecting upon it and even maybe reassessing it. But Scott is not Lynch or Kubrick or someone I inherently trust to draw something worthwhile out of that opportunity. I was a huge fan and supporter for many years but this has waned over time and I am much more critical of his work and its seemingly indifferent capitulation to commercial cinema dictates. He just doesn't seem particularly interested in his art anymore or his craft or whatever you'd care to call it. And, yes, I know there are many who would argue he never was, that he and Lyne and Parker, et al. should have been flushed to start. Clearly I don't agree with that.
But just as clearly (from my perspective at least) is the fact that Scott's greatest accomplishments are far behind him at this point; as I've suggested elsewhere, I would say his last flat out masterpiece is well over twenty years ago now. The stuff since then has been a mixed bag to say the least and this last decade in particular has been especially frustrating and I say that as one of the very few people apparently who liked his Robin Hood and, in fact, like it a lot. What I'm hoping is that there is some unconscious symmetry on display in his work with Gladiator and Robin Hood (mirror images of one another) framing an especially commercial period and with Kingdom of Heaven (another variation on same) providing a mid-period pivot point. I hope that because it is an understatement to say that the Ridley Scott of 2011 is not the Ridley Scott of 1981. It's hard to imagine the latter Scott ever making anything as uninspired as A Good Year or as rote and utterly forgettable as Body of Lies. He flourishes with a good screenwriter, that much we know, so best of luck on the search there. I am wary of Lindelof's involvement in Prometheus but I am nontheless very hopeful for that picture in expectation that it might mark a new, less stupefyingly safe and more radical direction for Scott's cinema. But does he even have it in him anymore?
- Roger Ryan
- Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 12:04 pm
- Location: A Midland town spread and darkened into a city
Re: New Films in Production
I think what fans react to with Scott's earlier films is their sense of design. Coming from a commercial background, he was fastidiously taken with getting the look right, but was perhaps less concerned with overall story or performances (note how all the actors in ALIEN recall that Scott gave them virtually no direction). What works wonderfully with Scott's first three films is that the overall design is either startling original (ALIEN and BLADE RUNNER) or an expert imitation of Kubrick (THE DUELISTS and, yes, ALIEN again to some extent) plus he had very good scripts and actors to support everything else going on. However, as early as his fourth film LEGEND, we start to see that the film's brilliant design can't carry a film with a weak script and this forms the pattern throughout Scott's subsequent career. Given that he has avoided science-fiction or the fantastic since the mid-80s, we're left with various period films for him to astonish us with his design aesthetic (which may or may not have decent scripts) and more routine films set in the modern day where the design element is simply not going to be as attention-drawing (but which may or may not have decent scripts and casts to carry them). This is not to say that Scott isn't a good director apart from the design of his films (personally, I think AMERICAN GANGSTER was really well-done), but I believe his elevation to auteur is based primarily on his ability to create a very detailed and authentic sense-of-place.
From all reports I've heard, Scott still invests himself fully in getting the look right; it's just that the novelty of that look is not as staggering as it was in the early years. His return to both the ALIEN and BLADE RUNNER worlds, however, might very well give him the canvas to do what he does best on a eye-catching scale. We'll see.
From all reports I've heard, Scott still invests himself fully in getting the look right; it's just that the novelty of that look is not as staggering as it was in the early years. His return to both the ALIEN and BLADE RUNNER worlds, however, might very well give him the canvas to do what he does best on a eye-catching scale. We'll see.
- Mr Sausage
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:02 pm
- Location: Canada
Re: New Films in Production
I'm sorry, but it comes across like you haven't payed any attention to what I've said. In the first place, I never said a thing about effectiveness, I said:knives wrote:Fine, but what does that have to do with their effectiveness. You yourself say it is easier to integrate them into the film.
These words are not synonyms and I don't see why there should be any confusion on this point. As to your comment about it being easier, again I have to wonder if you're actually reading my posts:Mr Sausage wrote:the effects will be quite a bit less impressive than what was achieved on the original movie.
Mr Sausage wrote:the level of difficulty to be overcome is as important to the impressiveness of special effects as anything else,
Aside from caricaturing my posts with a deliberate dysphemism (you mean that I imply it, but why say that when you can say I insinuate it instead), this is nonsensical. What practical effects "brothers" are you talking about? How would comparing two randomly chosen films (including one that tries to disguise the fact that it's even using effects) refute anything that I have said? I have a better idea: take any CGI you think is well done and then ask yourself whether it would be more, less, or equally impressive if they had done the exact same thing with the exact same effectiveness using practical effects. I wager in the majority of cases, it would be more impressive.knives wrote:My problem with Sausage's comments is that it insinuates that something like Zodiac is inherently less impressive than it's practical effects brothers.
You can of course say that there are some things that practical effects could never achieve as effectively as CGI, which may be true; but in the case of Blade Runner, there is little CGI could do to improve on the effects of that film (well aware Scott touched up the recent version with them), and that considering the amount that can be done sitting on front of the computer these days, creating the same world using CGI is a less impressive feat. So much so that they did it for a video game adaptation of the film some years ago.
- John Cope
- Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 5:40 pm
- Location: where the simulacrum is true
Re: New Films in Production
I agree with you in principle but I really don't think this gives Scott enough credit for the very specific thematic preoccupations that have tended to shape his career. For instance, it's no fluke that he wound up making Thelma & Louise. It was just a more overt extension of his interest in the meaning and malleability of gender roles and the presumptions of strength/weakness we bring to them implicitly (examples before obviously include Alien but also the whole male-female dynamic in BR and, especially, in Someone to Watch Over Me; later examples become even more overt, bordering on the crass, with G.I. Jane in particular as the ultimate petri dish).Roger Ryan wrote:I believe his elevation to auteur is based primarily on his ability to create a very detailed and authentic sense-of-place.
But there is also his deep comprehension of the structure, effects and details of fairy tales and moral narratives. Legend is hampered by a less than ideal script but the director's cut is magnificent anyway, a fully realized vision of classic fairy tale design, all its mores and tropes. That same kind of thing informs the Grand Guignol Gothicism of Hannibal. And that one, in turn, also displays that other inherent, abiding interest in morality, most specifically the examination of the virtuous life or character and how, in fact, in can best be understood and depicted in idealized ways (this is why, I would argue, Balian's Crusade in the long cut of Kingdom of Heaven is never "profound"; Scott's not reaching for that but rather for an idealized depiction of perfected character). There are many examples of this focus: Moore in Hannibal, at sea in a sea of amorality or blatant immorality, Crowe in American Gangster as self-conscious embodiment of the "one good cop" and Berenger's whole arc in STWOM.
I don't know whether Scott himself realizes all this consciously, intellectually and, if not, this could explain a lot of his missteps as being the product of someone who doesn't recognize his own strengths and where his vision is apt to be most refined.
- matrixschmatrix
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 11:26 pm
Re: New Films in Production
If it's exactly the same, than it's exactly equally impressive, as a viewer. I don't really give a damn what went into the effects, I care about what I see- so if there's no change in the results, I don't know why there should be a change in my perception. When I watch shots like the changing-decades montage in Zodiac, I'm impressed by the imagination that went into the shot, how it works on screen, how well it works within the movie, etc, and any consideration of what means were used to accomplish it are secondary at best.Mr Sausage wrote:Take any CGI you think is well done and then ask yourself whether it would be more, less, or equally impressive if they had done the exact same thing with the exact same effectiveness using practical effects. I wager in the majority of cases, it would be more impressive.
Moreover, it's not as though CGI has rendered practical effects obsolete- it's a tool, like any other. The Lord of the Rings movies used an enormous number of miniatures, trick shots, forced perspective, all the classic tricks from the handbag, and an enormous amount of CGI as well- I think the blend of the two is why they hold up relatively well, effects-wise, when a lot of movies from around 2001 look dated already. There are things practical effects can accomplish that CGI can't, but I expect an intelligent director to know that and to use practical effects to do those things.
- knives
- Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm
Re: New Films in Production
Exactly. When it comes to Matte paintings and cleaning up practical effects CGI can be a very impressive tool. There's no imbalance in that quality at all and when used properly either can be equally impressive.
- Mr Sausage
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:02 pm
- Location: Canada
Re: New Films in Production
If you wish to be insensitive to these things, by all means. For me, and for a lot of other people I would assume, the difficulty of the task makes it all the more impressive when it's done well, and that changes the effect on me as a viewer. For the same reason that I am more impressed by the gravity defying camera in a movie such as The Last Laugh or Sunrise than I am the same in a film made in the era of the steadicam, so I am more impressed by the incredible detail, the seamlessness, and the scope of the practical effects in Blade Runner than in a CGI equivalent because it took all the more effort and ingenuity to pull off. Indeed, incredibly detailed CGI futureworlds have become fairly passe, whereas Blade Runner never ceases to impress me with its visuals, even after having seen it a dozen or so times. Seeing it on the big screen for the first time a few years ago, I sat in awe of its effects and visuals in a way that I haven't with any other CGI extravaganza I can think of. Creating that world with practical effects is just such a larger achievement than doing the same with CGI, however incredible the lattermatrixschmatrix wrote:If it's exactly the same, than it's exactly equally impressive, as a viewer. I don't really give a damn what went into the effects, I care about what I see- so if there's no change in the results, I don't know why there should be a change in my perception. When I watch shots like the changing-decades montage in Zodiac, I'm impressed by the imagination that went into the shot, how it works on screen, how well it works within the movie, etc, and any consideration of what means were used to accomplish it are secondary at best.
That's certainly not something I either stated or implied. Plus I agree with you that the reason the LOTR effects hold up so well (compared to the terrible looking effects of, say, the Star Wars prequels) is because Jackson integrated a lot of practical effects. Try not to be so kneejerk in your disagreements with me. I'm not actually saying anything contentious; I'm making a basic point that the difficulty involved in achieving what Blade Runner did with practical effects is more impressive than doing the same with CGI. I am not saying that CGI is not impressive or cannot be impressive. Just not as impressive as practical equivalents in a lot of cases.matrixscmatrix wrote:Moreover, it's not as though CGI has rendered practical effects obsolete
- matrixschmatrix
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 11:26 pm
Re: New Films in Production
Well, fair enough, but that argument still seems to presume a lack of imagination on the filmmaker's part- I would imagine there's still something out there that's impressively difficult to do. Certainly, apart from any question of CGI, worldbuilding has become so much a part of of the fantasy and sci-fi movie playbook that while it's certainly still possible to be breathtakingly imaginative within the field (here I'm thinking of Mirrormask) it is no longer possible to be groundbreaking in quite the way Blade Runner was, as that ground has already been broken. Which is one of the reasons I'd love to see this version focus on some of Dick's more interior explorations, which presents a field for visualization that has been tried a lot but rarely succeeded, and still seems to have a lot of open territory.
- zedz
- Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 7:24 pm
Re: New Films in Production
After all, even George Lucas has taken to wearing Jabba the Hutt's neck!matrixschmatrix wrote:Moreover, it's not as though CGI has rendered practical effects obsolete.
- zedz
- Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 7:24 pm
Re: New Films in Production
On a more serious note, of course there's the possibility of the use of CGI being as mind-blowing and imaginative as traditional special effects (see, for instance, Gondry's "Come into my World", where he uses digital compositing - alongside incredibly painstaking real-world choreography, it must be said - to reconfigure time), but 'doing practical effects more cheaply' is unlikely to be in the same league. Creating worlds like those seen in Bladerunner is so run-of-the-mill nowadays that a CGI version of what we saw in the original film would be completely underwhelming. Even something ten times as detailed and flexible is likely to be underwhelming at this point. (Which is I think the point that Sausage was making.)matrixschmatrix wrote:Well, fair enough, but that argument still seems to presume a lack of imagination on the filmmaker's part- I would imagine there's still something out there that's impressively difficult to do. Certainly, apart from any question of CGI, worldbuilding has become so much a part of of the fantasy and sci-fi movie playbook that while it's certainly still possible to be breathtakingly imaginative within the field (here I'm thinking of Mirrormask) it is no longer possible to be groundbreaking in quite the way Blade Runner was, as that ground has already been broken. Which is one of the reasons I'd love to see this version focus on some of Dick's more interior explorations, which presents a field for visualization that has been tried a lot but rarely succeeded, and still seems to have a lot of open territory.
- NABOB OF NOWHERE
- Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:30 pm
- Location: Brandywine River
Re: New Films in Production
I can't see that anyone has posted on the new Resnais. A retelling of the Orpheus myth. An impressive line-up even if it mixes, for some, those you love to hate - Dussolier, Azema, Arditti- with those you love to love -Consigny, Almaric, Wilson.
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- Forrest Taft
- Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:34 pm
- Location: Stavanger, Norway
Re: New Films in Production
Roy Andersson has started working on his next picture, En duva satt på en gren - och funderade på tillvaron (A Pigeon Sat on a Branch - Reflecting on Existence). It will not premiere until 2013, but the latest issues of Nordic film magazines Ekko, FLM, Episodi and Rushprint include a DVD featuring (among other things) 3 scenes from Andersson's upcoming feature.
-
- Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:20 pm
Re: New Films in Production
More tinkering from Harvey Weinstein. This time on "Our Idiot Brother" :
Since we are on the cusp of fall festival (and acquisition) season it will be interesting to see what hot titles Harvey snaps up and then cuts to pieces trying to add his "improvements". Though to be fair, Our Idiot Brother looked pretty bad anyways.Jesse Peretz wrote:In the version of the movie we screened at Sundance, [Rudd’s character Ned] just says goodbye to his family and drives off in a truck with Billy [Lavin] and they have kind of a sweet conversation, but you don't know where they're going. It's not particularly funny,” the director recalled. “When the Weinsteins picked it up and were prepared to put more money into it, we sort of talked about how we could deliver a little bit more of a satisfying ending.
- mfunk9786
- Under Chris' Protection
- Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:43 pm
- Location: Philadelphia, PA
Re: New Films in Production
At least we know that PTA won't stand for that sort of thing.
-
- Joined: Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:56 am
Re: New Films in Production
Our idiot distributor.
- knives
- Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm
Re: New Films in Production
Has anyone actually seen The Wicker Tree? At this point I'm tempted to say it doesn't exist.
- antnield
- Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:59 pm
- Location: Cheltenham, England
Re: New Films in Production
It screened at the UK's FrightFest this weekend. Looking at the immediate Twitter responses it seems to be a definite love it or loathe it prospect, albeit with the majority falling in the latter category.
- colinr0380
- Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:30 pm
- Location: Chapel-en-le-Frith, Derbyshire, UK
Re: New Films in Production
I'm holding out for the truly terrifying third film - The Wicker Chair!
-
- Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:20 pm
Re: New Films in Production
Richard Linklater is shooting his next movie "College Republicans" in Austin in November. It's apparently about a young Karl Rove. (With Paul Dano attached to star). Script rated very high on The Black List.
You have to feel sorry for Linklater. Bernie picked up decent reviews at the LA Film Fest but only got picked up by some new small indie outfit that doesn't have any distribution experience. Could end up being another botched release like "Me and Orson Welles".
You have to feel sorry for Linklater. Bernie picked up decent reviews at the LA Film Fest but only got picked up by some new small indie outfit that doesn't have any distribution experience. Could end up being another botched release like "Me and Orson Welles".
- matrixschmatrix
- Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 11:26 pm
Re: New Films in Production
Charlie Sheen to star in a movie that would sound interesting were it not for Charlie Sheen. It's a shame, I liked CQ and Roman's work on The Darjeeling Limited, and you'd think Schwartzman would have better things to do.
Last edited by matrixschmatrix on Fri Sep 09, 2011 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.