Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance / Oldboy / Lady Vengeance (Park Chan-wook, 2002/2003/2005)

[leo goldsmith]

Not to add too much to this Glass "discussion," but it seems clear to me that he works in a largely mercenary manner these days, especially in film. I think some of his soundtracks compliment films nicely, but whatever his musical merits, he clearly spreads himself rather thinly. His utterly redundant soundtracks for "Undertow" and any of the thirty documentaries he's scored in the past two years make this plain. But there are always going to be these figures who bridge the more popular and the more refined realms of aesthetic taste (Michael Nyman is another obvious one in the world of popular minimalism), and I don't think they should be shat upon merely because they are better known than their more "rigorous" contemporaries.

As for Oldboy, I don't recall it bothering me that much. But the Sympathy for Lady Vengeance score, like the film, is wonderfully baroque.

But it is nice to see Invunche making the full-court press for this year's Richard Cranium Award. Go for it, Invunche. This could be your year.

[The Invunche]

I have tried hard, but in the end it always seems to slip out of my hands.

[jon abbey]

But there are always going to be these figures who bridge the more popular and the more refined realms of aesthetic taste (Michael Nyman is another obvious one in the world of popular minimalism), and I don't think they should be shat upon merely because they are better known than their more "rigorous" contemporaries.

sure, agreed. in case it wasn't clear, it's not because he's better known that I'm criticizing/dismissing him, it's because I find his music vapid.

[Galen Young]

[jon abbey]

You're talking about the Oldboy OST, right? The one composed by Hyun-Jung Shim, Ji-Soo Lee and Seung-Hyun Choi? The one with the umbrella/handkerchief/wallpaper artwork? What a brilliant fucking score that is! I'm not afraid to admit how much I love this music. Talk about a perfect fit with a film! What other kind of style, temperament or genre of music could possibly work better than this -- with Oldboy?!

I'm talking about whatever was in the movie. what could work better with Oldboy? jeez, really almost anything not so overbearing and insipid, but it's clear from your Glass-love that we don't agree about much musically.

as for Koyaanisqatsi, I used to play the video all the time at home, with the soundtrack mercifully turned off and my own CDs of choice added. amazing how there were almost always synchronous moments, and I found the film much more enjoyable then when I saw it in the theater with the OST.

[Lino]

Ok, now. This topic was created for two main reasons: the first being, that I really want to read this forum's members opinions on the themes and techniques and reasons behind the 3 films that form Chan-Wook's Revenge Trilogy, Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance, Oldboy and Sympathy for Lady Vengeance; the second reason being, that I have noticed a certain disappointment from the part of quite a few members regarding the state of this forum (Matt would be the first to admit this and he has in fact already done so).

So, I guess this is a call to arms to anyone interested in a healthy discussion on the theme I hereby propose to you and also a request to please refrain to posts like "Oh, I really, really liked Oldboy but hated Lady Vengeance" and then not fully justifying the reasons behind one's opinions. Maybe we will get an interesting debate of ideas if we all contribute (Andre, dvdane, you're both invited of course and HerrSchrek, please try not to ramble on so much, ok?).

Oh, and one more thing: this thread is bound to be filled with spoilers (Park's films are full of twists that are inherent to his filmmaking) so if you have not seen them yet, beware!

Now, on with the festivities. I will just start off by saying that I've yet to see Mr. Vengeance although I'm quite familiar with the plot by now just by casually reading careless online reviews of his film...

One thing I would like to hear other opinions about is just why does Chan-Wook centers so much of his energies on making film after film (and even segment, if you count his participation on Three...Extremes) on the Revenge motif. I have read several online interviews with him and one thing he keeps repeating is that he wants to understand just why people seem to be so keen on avenging past ocurrences and what lies behind those motivations. Sounds too simple to me but plausible at the same time. I feel however that his main reason lies somewhere else.

One other interview focused on the fact that he hates that a lot of what makes a korean a korean, is his/her ability to easily forget and forgive. He says that's a main part of korean consciousness and philosophy and that's the way it's been for ages and ages. He continued by saying that he's totally against that way of thinking and acting and that's why he makes films in which people do not easily forgive and forget - they take action instead, which this time around means revenge on the ones that caused them harm. I think that we may be getting closer to what he is all about here. A kind of personal redemption by way of vengeful action.

And to me, that's what his films are all about: REDEMPTION and not REVENGE. He somewhat wants to have his own back at his past, collective or individual, and find some kind of relief in doing just that. But does it ultimately leave him (or his characters) feeling any good at the end? I would venture a resounding NO, but at least they've proven to themselves that they will not "forgive and forget" that easily from ow on. Because let's not forget that along with all this comes also a feeling of GUILT and also of a "is this all there is to it" sense in the air.

What do you all think about this?

Edit: Interesting reactions so far. See, Matt: it's not really your fault. Enjoy your Hejira with a proud head!

[che-etienne]

I would say that in "Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance" the redemption theme is less prevalent. I remember when Park once pointed out that - and I'm paraphrasing here - in all his films (note this was before the release of "Lady Vengeance) none of the characters ever question why they are being targeted, why they are victims. Instead they seek revenge. His films have of course a strong amount of shock factor and visceral edge, and at times some narrative incoherencies, which only compound a feeling of well I'd call it 'ignorance'. The audience is always made to feel as powerless and as unknowing as the protagonist (especially in "Oldboy"). Though redemption works itself into the final act of "Oldboy" and is prevalent in "Lady Vengeance" I feel that at least for the first half of the trilogy (that's to say all of the first and most of the second) the films focus themselves on creating a sense of ignorance. They display gratuitous violence and sexuality, sometimes with a seeming meaninglessness. So for me its about uncomfortability when one watches those films. It's about ignorance and blind action, and the consequences of said action. I have more to say, and of "Oldboy" and "Lady Vengeance" especially I might do a deeper analysis... this was pretty simplistic I guess, but I hope this will do for now.

[Gregory]

I'm coming to this thread about six months late. I plan to go see a screening of Old Boy this evening.
It's probably useless to make any attempt to add anything to the discussion of Glass at this point, but I think it's important to note the importance of fashion and trends in shaping a composer's or musician's reputation in certain circles. Yes, I listen to people like Charlemagne Palestine, Phill Niblock, Arnold Dreyblatt (and Tony Conrad esecially) and I've visited LaMonte Young's Dream House in Manhattan. It's pretty obvious that Glass hasn't attempted to follow a path anything like these composers. He has much more middle-market appeal. He has done, in my opinion, some interesting things with texts. He has also done some very good soundtrack work such as Koyaanisqatsi, but has taken a style that was very appropriate for that film and driven it into a rut by applying it in a similar way to lots of different types of films. The few people I've met people who love his work have tended to have very middle-of-the-road tastes. I'm not judging all his fans but this has been my experience. I don't think the Glass fans I knew would be too open to listening to the composers mentioned earlier because they're simply too challenging and demanding. Glass's work is both easier to take in and enjoy and, I think, a bit more predictable.
However, I certainly don't see any need to make him a pariah. I have had friends, I presume some of the same types that can be found on the music discussion boards jon abbey mentioned, that have half-teasingly berated me for ever listening to Glass's music, and I'm far from a Glass devotee. Many of his pieces have beautiful moments in them, and that's what I listen for. It would be nice if people could realize more that other people hear things in music that they don't hear, and respect that difference. But fashion is a powerful influence, and Glass's music has been out of fashion for a long, long time in avant-garde music circles, just as say Wynton Marsalis has due to his conservatism -- and with good reason in my opinion. But is there anything wrong with listening through his catalog to find the moments that one finds really interesting (such as one of the solos he takes on Jeff Tain Watts' Citizen Tain album)? No, I think that's what serious listeners do, without worrying about whether its fashionable, whether it's suitable to the tastes of people who write for The Wire, and so on. I don't mean to lump anyone into this category of music snob but comments such as "Glass is awful, as anyone who pays serious attention to music will let you know" certainly remind me of it very strongly. Then again this was also fuelded by the comment that one couldn't be a music producer and hate Glass and/or his music for Koyaanisqatsi, so maybe it cuts both ways.

[jon abbey]

just seeing this now...

It's probably useless to make any attempt to add anything to the discussion of Glass at this point, but I think it's important to note the importance of fashion and trends in shaping a composer's or musician's reputation in certain circles. Yes, I listen to people like Charlemagne Palestine, Phill Niblock, Arnold Dreyblatt (and Tony Conrad esecially) and I've visited LaMonte Young's Dream House in Manhattan. It's pretty obvious that Glass hasn't attempted to follow a path anything like these composers. He has much more middle-market appeal. He has done, in my opinion, some interesting things with texts. He has also done some very good soundtrack work such as Koyaanisqatsi, but has taken a style that was very appropriate for that film and driven it into a rut by applying it in a similar way to lots of different types of films. The few people I've met people who love his work have tended to have very middle-of-the-road tastes. I'm not judging all his fans but this has been my experience. I don't think the Glass fans I knew would be too open to listening to the composers mentioned earlier because they're simply too challenging and demanding. Glass's work is both easier to take in and enjoy and, I think, a bit more predictable.
However, I certainly don't see any need to make him a pariah. I have had friends, I presume some of the same types that can be found on the music discussion boards jon abbey mentioned, that have half-teasingly berated me for ever listening to Glass's music, and I'm far from a Glass devotee. Many of his pieces have beautiful moments in them, and that's what I listen for. It would be nice if people could realize more that other people hear things in music that they don't hear, and respect that difference. But fashion is a powerful influence, and Glass's music has been out of fashion for a long, long time in avant-garde music circles, just as say Wynton Marsalis has due to his conservatism -- and with good reason in my opinion. But is there anything wrong with listening through his catalog to find the moments that one finds really interesting (such as one of the solos he takes on Jeff Tain Watts' Citizen Tain album)? No, I think that's what serious listeners do, without worrying about whether its fashionable, whether it's suitable to the tastes of people who write for The Wire, and so on. I don't mean to lump anyone into this category of music snob but comments such as "Glass is awful, as anyone who pays serious attention to music will let you know" certainly remind me of it very strongly. Then again this was also fuelded by the comment that one couldn't be a music producer and hate Glass and/or his music for Koyaanisqatsi, so maybe it cuts both ways.

just to be clear, I form my own opinions about music, which often have very little to do with conventional wisdom (one reason I started my own label). I agree with a fair amount of what you say above, except that I'd say that "serious music listeners" would mostly be of the opinion that life is too short to pick out potentially interesting moments in Wynton Marsalis or Philip Glass' work. there's just too much else out there that's almost definitely more rewarding.

[Antoine Doinel]

Well, I finally caught a screening of Lady Vengeance last night, so now I comment in the thread!

Firstly, I would have to agree that these films are more about redemption than they are about revenge (though Park doesn't shy away from the gory details involved). However, while the films are about redemption, the biggest message that comes through for me in all three is that even after the act of vengeance is completed, none of the characters have healed.

In Lady Vengeance in particular as the movie goes on, the pointlessness of her mission becomes more apparent. I found it striking they she put aside her own 13 year payback to let the parents of the victim's line up, exact their revenge and kill the teacher. I'm sure she got some joy out of it, but it completely depersonalized the experience. The most she gets is shooting the teacher in the face, long after he's dead. Moreover, we never get the impression that her child appreciates just how much she's gone through, and why this vengeance is so important to her.

Oldboy cuts a similar path. While Dae-su is able to level the score, he is simultaneously handed devastating information regarding his past and his lover. He leaves the movie with arguably more pain than when he started.

Sympathy For Mr. Vengeance is intriguing only because it's the only film in the trilogy that offers such a focused view of the victim. The first half of the film is pretty much dedicated to the victim, before switching (rather abruptly I find) to the vengeance plot. But even here, the act offers only a minimum of redemption.

I think in all three films, Park makes a case for not only the pointlessness of violence (no matter how well choreographed) but also that violence begets violence. That vengeance isn't a singular act but can inspire similar acts in an unending cycle.

[Lino]

I think in all three films, Park makes a case for not only the pointlessness of violence (no matter how well choreographed) but also that violence begets violence. That vengeance isn't a singular act but can inspire similar acts in an unending cycle.

Exactly. I think you pretty much nailed what my thoughts about his approach to revenge are. Maybe it all feels a bit pointless but I think that his intention is precisely that -- to show us that it doesn't lead to anything constructive or substantially good.

You could make a point that he is deconstructing that ole cinematic myth of the underdog that plans a revenge on his enemies and comes out a hero at the end. Chan-wook for me demonstrates that it's all much more complex and less Hollywood-like in real life (although you could also argue that his films offer a kind of hyper-realism and function more as parables than actual accounts of events).

[Antoine Doinel]

I would say that these are more parables than anything resembling real life examples, but I don't think that diminishes their impact. And yeah, I totally agree that Park is deconstructing the hero/vengeance mythos so prevalent in western film. What I particularly like about these films is how flawed these characters are. They aren't operating on some kind of righteous moral plain, but are plagued by guilt and moreover their reasoning is often entirely selfish (which Lady Vengeance manages to address). These missions aren't carried out to protect humanity, but to right a personal wrong and be damned whoever gets in the way. These films don't tie up neatly at all, and the pain felt by the characters is never quenched only changed.

I was doing some hunting around and I came across this on IMDB about Lady Vengeance:

There are two different versions of the film. One is full color. The other, called "Fade to Black Version", shifts from color to B&W over the course of the movie. Like Sin City, there are color highlighted, even in the B&W scenes. The second version is what the director intended, but he was not able to complete it properly until the Korean DVD (which includes both versions).

Has anyone seen the Korean DVD with b&w version? How is it?

[The Invunche]

I guess it's ok. It didn't make much difference to me.

[Michael]

In Lady Vengeance in particular as the movie goes on, the pointlessness of her mission becomes more apparent. I found it striking they she put aside her own 13 year payback to let the parents of the victim's line up, exact their revenge and kill the teacher. I'm sure she got some joy out of it, but it completely depersonalized the experience. The most she gets is shooting the teacher in the face, long after he's dead. Moreover, we never get the impression that her child appreciates just how much she's gone through, and why this vengeance is so important to her.

I disagree. She comes to the realization that the real victims are the kids and their parents. Not her. Her daughter is still very much alive. But the victims express while awaiting their turn to stab the teacher that their lives had turned completely fucked up since their children were killed. Geum-ja let them have it and this whole sequence in the abandoned school is incredibly, bizarrely cathartic. The 13 year payback mission is NOT pointless because without it, it'd never had evolved into something else that we see later in the film.

And how do you expect her child to appreciate and understand what her mother'd gone through? She's just a little girl. She appreciates the snow white cake in the finale and that's more than enough for her.

[Andre Jurieu]

She appreciates the snow white cake in the finale and that's more than enough for her.

The scene with the "white" cake is the most offensive moment in the whole film.

[Michael]

How is it offensive?

[Lino]

How is it offensive?

Beats me too. Unless diving your head in tofu is offensive instead of just eating it. Maybe Andre is refering to the tofu scene at the beginning of the movie (when she dumps it on the ground) and not the one at the very end?

[Michael]

Tofu? Or is it a cake in the shape of a giant tofu? She throws her face into the cake and devours it, symbolizing her hunger for spiritual comfort or ease. So I can't see anything offensive about it.

[Andre Jurieu]

How is it offensive?

Beats me too. Unless diving your head in tofu is offensive instead of just eating it. Maybe Andre is referring to the tofu scene at the beginning of the movie (when she dumps it on the ground) and not the one at the very end?

Tofu? Or is it a cake in the shape of a giant tofu? She throws her face into the cake and devours it, symbolizing her hunger for spiritual comfort or ease. So I can't see anything offensive about it.

The scene might have worked well at symbolizing her need for spiritual comfort and desire for purity, if it weren't for the context in which the scene occurs. It works well only if you ignore much of what the director chooses to show us beforehand and isolate the scene.

You have a Korean woman talking to her biological child who has been raised in a western society by a caucasian couple. She then tells her daughter, who has been thoroughly raised inside Western culture for years and speaks fluent English, to "be white." She instructs her child in English, rather than in Korean. Whether or not the scene is played for laughs or as sad cathartic drama, or whether Park thinks this is more about recapturing innocence of youth, by having her command her child in English, Park makes sure that the subtitles aren't even necessary as his heroine is making certain that Western audiences understand the instruction. This becomes slightly more offensive knowing that Park is keenly aware of his growing popularity in the West after Tarantino celebrated Old Boy at Cannes. So essentially, she is telling her daughter that the only salvation the child can receive is if she adopts Western behavior and embraces western culture, almost as if Korean culture is beyond hope.

I don't even know why I'm bothering with this explanation, considering it's just going to be discarded in favor of "enthusiasm" and "passion," because we can't find fault in a masterpiece that will go on to become embraced as the greatest film ever made about anything, especially after time passes and it's evaluated as the pinnacle of cinema and proves all it's critics to be stooopid dumb people who aren't willing to accept the genius of a filmmaker who has every frame touched by the hand of God... and so on and so forth.

[Lino]

Hmm, interesting read of the word "white" there. I must admit I never took it as literally as you did. For me, white in that particular context means pure, immaculate and free of sins. In that sense, she is clearly cleansing herself from everything she did up to that point in her life. With that in mind, I found that moment to be particularly emotional.

All these 3 films that form the Vengeance Trilogy are extremely open to personal interpretation so I guess yours is pretty valid too.

[Michael]

Andre, I agree with Lino that your explanation is very interesting.. and also valid. I never saw it in that way but thanks for taking the time to answer my question. Very much appreciated.

EDIT: I watched it again last night. This time with Pedro (my partner). I didn't say anything to him about Andre's significance of "white" but he came out of the film saying that the ending let him down terribly. He found the ending too ridiculous - like a big joke.

Really too bad because the style really has so much to offer. It left me drooling throughout. The abandoned school centerpiece is a masterpiece on its own.

[erok910]

Rewatched Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance again for the first time in a few years. I'm consistently surprised by the tepid response to this in comparison to Oldboy and Lady Vengeance. I thought Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance was far superior, though I enjoy most/all of Park Chan Wook's work very much. I understand that it aesthetically may not have some of the flash of the latter two but felt I should make this comment because I'm truly surprised Mr. Vengeance is the one I see people finding to be weaker in terms of story or style.

Some of it is just incredible, little moments I forgot: the disabled onlooker trying to save the little girl with his teeth around the necklace; Song Kang-Ho dream sequence holding his daughter in his arms as she asks why he didn't get her swimming lessons sooner; the dolly out as Ryu realizes he's been left naked in the tower with his kidney missing. It's one of the more fucked up movies I've probably ever seen in fact. I remember feeling this way vaguely the first time I'd seen it. But I'm really surprised that I feel even more certain of it now. Something about the class issues met with emotional sincerity: I really dig this movie. Am thankful I found it on Kanopy, had been looking for it for a while and couldn't find it. Perhaps I'll continue with Oldboy or Lady Vengeance later today. I actually watched Titane earlier today for the first time, it was cool- but it didn't stick with me the same as Mr. Vengeance. (Long winded and little on content, I know.) But really recommend in case anyone hasn't seen in a while and is considering it.