It is currently Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:20 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 98 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:43 am 
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:34 pm
Location: NYC
I don't remember if it's mentioned in that piece I linked to or I read it somewhere else but Gerwig shot the prom scene while wearing her actual prom dress. It's that kinda cheesiness driven by being obsessed with yourself that made me think Lena Dunham. I have similar issues with Donald Glover being corny but at least in Atlanta for the first time in anything he's been involved with he's not just overwhelmingly being Donald Glover. He's by far the worst part of that show, but Paper Boi & Darius have taken over. Gerwig so far is always Greta Gerwig even in a movie she's not even in it's so clearly her that you wish she'd allow for some separation.

It'll be interesting to see how sustainable this mainstream success she's having is.


Top
 Profile  
 

PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 3:45 am 
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:43 pm
Literally nothing in your last two posts had anything to do with the film Lady Bird. Would make a great deal of sense to wage culture wars outside of a thread for an actual feature film that you can watch and comment on directly instead of telling third hand anecdotes about millennials behaving badly


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:25 am 

Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:04 pm
This post has spoilers here and there but I don't feel like breaking it up that way; really just responding to some of the harsh criticism. The reason I compared the movie to "Last Days of Disco" is precisely because of the semi-backhanded way religion does slip in (Barcelona more blatantly, Last Days of Disco obliquely at the end). With Lady Bird it's more obvious, hardly a false note. Why wouldn't she go into a church? I don't see how it doesn't fit with the tone of the movie. She literally went to a religious school where she had to go to church probably once a week. By that point the film had clearly established some respect for the nun/priest/teacher class represented, even if the teens try their best to dislike them (the "married to Jesus" bit). Plus this contrasted with the doltish airhead leftist boyfriend, and then after her one-liner with the guy at the party (another very Stillman-esque moment). This church scene doesn't seem random or tacked on in light of these previous events. I also don't really think she plays the "crappy hometown" angle because her city is clearly shot lovingly and even if she wants to move, she doesn't really say Sacramento sucks or anything of the sort.

Edit: I think the Dave Mathews angle works for two reasons, it literally comes from her experience, and it seems to really piss off a certain subset whom Gerwig maybe didn't mind pissing off (the doofish high school boyfriend being the emblem for this group)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:05 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:34 pm
Location: NYC
John I think you're right it does fit in with the tone of the movie and I'll even give you the Dave Matthews being a clever troll job on people like me, but the former is just another thing Lady Bird does that works out, tying a bow on one aspect of her life as not only perfectly well adjusted but appreciated. She makes fun of the nuns? Well look at her now going to church, see she actually loves and misses them. She wants to get as far away from Sacramento as possible? Well look at her now missing all the places in her hometown she couldn't wait to leave, it's still home. It's very hard for me to take seriously that a week old college freshman in NYC is already having all those profound nostalgic thoughts about her life.

There's just so much of this throughout the film, scenes or actions that were 100% dramatically serious that kept reinforcing this notion that you're supposed to find Lady Bird endearing. What stuck false to me is so much of what she goes thru in real life isn't endearing at all, it's messy, it's hard, painful but everything here eventually gets a happy face put on it. I think therein lies why I struggle with Gerwig so much, she's a talented writer with a particularly excellent knack for character development that I truly admire but the stories she's using these talents for, autobiographical ones showcasing her world view are diametrically opposed to what the world is actually like. The bubble she lives in must be nice.

Did anybody notice Lady Bird's room? That was another thing that raised my eyebrow. Who on earth has a room like that?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:32 pm 

Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:04 pm
I think you're right that what she goes through is messy and painful, but as Brian C said above the film does a good job depicting those messy things, how teenagers blow those things out of proportion, and then how the film offers a little more depth about these things. Her epiphany at the end isn't necessarily grand and doesn't put a bow on the family struggles that already exist, as far as I can see.

As far as Gerwig's bubble, I'm not sure what the movie says about her personal life but the characters in the film, as teens often are, seem somewhat aware they live in a bubble. The characters in this movie rebel against this in their own way (the bartering bit made me burst out laughing). Teenagers are often the ones using the phrase "real world", such as "I can't wait to go to the real world." This probably stems from the fact that adults levy them with the phrase more than anyone, "You don't know what the real world is like" as if to say their experience, so magnified emotionally already, isn't real.

I know I've said it already in this thread but I do think she's learned from Stillman in regard to this very "bubble" idea, and also Wes Anderson (the poster nod) whose films also are kinds of self aware worlds/bubbles (though heavily stylized, as this film isn't as someone mentioned).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:45 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:58 am
Location: Chicago, IL
Well, I guess what I'd ask is what's so "messy and painful" in the first place. It's easy to understand that she finds her mom annoying and outright hurtful at times, but also it's apparent that she nonetheless has loving parents who will ultimately support her. The family is under a fair amount of economic stress, but ultimately they don't want for much and are in little danger of actual destitution. She's impatient with the limited world of her hometown but the movie also make clear that she's maybe also being just a bit of a snob about it. She's had some bad luck romantically but romantic relationships are messy for everyone, especially teenagers, and she doesn't go through anything severe or out of the ordinary.

Again, these things are important to Lady Bird, but it's not like she has a rapist father and a heroin addiction and is facing a future of sweatshop labor to make ends meet, and I don't fault the movie for not emphasizing the "messy and painful" stuff more than it does. There's no reason why the relationship she has with her mom couldn't be patched over pretty easily and there's no reason why her hometown is so awful that she wouldn't miss it. Ultimately, I think the movie hits the right balance in being pretty honest in depicting the privilege of these characters while still taking their concerns seriously.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:33 am 

Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 12:28 pm
Although I feel this forum overly enforces polite discourse, there should be some limits.

If you hate this film, then tweet the shit out of it. Elsewhere.

And Black whatever, I haven't bothered to read any of your subsequent posts. If this film exploded so many negative feelings from you, it is a smashing success.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:42 am 
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:35 pm
To get this thread slightly back on track, Saoirse Ronan hosted tonight's SNL, and Gerwig made an appearance in the requisite weird Kyle Mooney-Beck Bennett sketch (which also happened to be the highlight of an otherwise completely lackluster episode).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:05 am 
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:08 pm
The Narrator Returns wrote:
To get this thread slightly back on track, Saoirse Ronan hosted tonight's SNL, and Gerwig made an appearance in the requisite weird Kyle Mooney-Beck Bennett sketch (which also happened to be the highlight of an otherwise completely lackluster episode).

I just got to this sketch and it was dumber than ten Mother!s, so I'm in complete dread about the rest of the episode.

SER-SHA is committed, though.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:06 am 
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:43 pm
J Adams wrote:
And Black whatever, I haven't bothered to read any of your subsequent posts. If this film exploded so many negative feelings from you, it is a smashing success.

It’s pretty clear by now that it has much less to do with the film and much more to do with Gerwig herself. Every post of his in this thread devolves into personal attacks on the filmmaker’s personal intentions and public persona. I’d really prefer not to have a thread for one of the Best Picture frontrunners turn into the fucking long-locked Lena Dunham thread because one of our users dislikes Greta Gerwig so much, so hopefully Black Hat knows when to hold ‘em and knows when to fold ‘em from this point on.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:17 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:15 pm
Location: Seattle, WA
I have to note that I absolutely had friends with rooms like that.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:40 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:14 pm
It's just the whole fake gamer girl phenomenon, that if any woman announces herself or put forward in any way as being different people immediately begin combing the archives to produce evidence that she's putting it on as an act because women can't actually be unique or worthy of consideration. I don't think he actually feels quite so strongly about it, but these posts ring of that mindset. Everyone likes this movie, it having a backlash is an inevitability, but this whole line of discussion has really made me concerned it won't actually be an interesting one of substance that reinforces the film's strengths and weaknesses (as Three Billboards has gotten) and it'll just be a Boyhood one where the internet as a gestalt entity decides to suddenly hate it for a ludicrously specific reason.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:44 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm
Or La La Land which seems to be disliked because the main characters are white and like jazz with John Legend.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:56 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:43 pm
knives wrote:
Or La La Land which seems to be disliked because the main characters are white and like jazz with John Legend.

Adding this as an UrbanDictionary entry under “white genocide”


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:57 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2014 1:14 pm
I’m furious that the way the narratives played out turned Best Picture last year into a game of “prove La La Land is racist by voting for Moonlight.” I like Moonlight plenty, but it turned into a weirdly ugly race despite all the filmmakers seeming like friendly, cool people. Extremely tangential to this, obviously.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:00 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:15 pm
Location: Seattle, WA
La La Land has bigger problems than having a confused opinion about white people gatekeeping jazz music.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:01 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:49 pm
mfunk9786 wrote:
knives wrote:
Or La La Land which seems to be disliked because the main characters are white and like jazz with John Legend.

Adding this as an UrbanDictionary entry under “white genocide”

I'm not sure I get the joke.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:02 pm 
Dot Com Dom
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 pm
Why is this thread displaying Twitter posts from ten months ago?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:59 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:43 pm
knives wrote:
mfunk9786 wrote:
knives wrote:
Or La La Land which seems to be disliked because the main characters are white and like jazz with John Legend.

Adding this as an UrbanDictionary entry under “white genocide”

I'm not sure I get the joke.

Was just referring to the absurdity that anyone worth listening to doesn’t like the film because the leads are white


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:26 pm 

Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:38 pm
Location: New York City
Glenn Kenny's recent blog post on the film seems to invoke some of Black Hat's criticisms (including those relating Gerwig's public persona), albeit in a less bombastic way.

I agree it would be a shame if the tangent this thread has gone down prevents a more substantive discussion. I don't have the same issues with Lady Bird's sentimentality or "corny" resolution as Kenny, but I also don't think those types of criticisms are totally unfair.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:34 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2011 5:34 pm
Location: NYC
Ribs, I don't know anything about gamers but it's unfortunate what I wrote about the film left you with sentiments even approaching that impression. I think in order for what you say to be true the film or the artist would have to stake out some sort of controversial or unique ground that people or in this case myself have trouble accepting because she's a woman. Lady Bird's a pretty safe film, as Gerwig's said herself it's meant to be a feel good film about her nostalgia for her childhood and hometown. As a public figure like in the Terry Gross interview she wanted no part of saying anything that wasn't boilerplate. I'm not going to pretend I'm a fan of either approach, but it's certainly not indicative of what you're implying, a pretty serious charge that warranted a response.

***

When I first saw this film it was at a P & I back in October in the middle of all the fury over the national anthem protests and when the end credits finished rolling the first thing I said to people around me was 'holy shit white people are going to be falling all over themselves when they see this'. Everyone laughed because they knew it's true and now it's come to pass.

I don't want to go full Ta Nehisi Coates on Lady Bird or rather its reception because one it's hard, two I doubt I can even do the perspective justice and three I don't believe a lot of members are open to having race being a part of discussing films generally let alone with this one. Race however does play a part here as White America can never get enough of seeing idealized versions of themselves. Part of the genius of Get Out for instance was its lampooning of this fact. As Knives seemingly bitterly pointed out the whitewashing of both of Damien Chazelle's films about jazz caused a backlash. I realize many members, even the smartest ones, scoff at these notions but it doesn't mean it's not true. If it bothers people who are jazz musicians, critics ie people who live and breathe jazz should we not listen to them when they're offended at how they're being portrayed?

As for Lady Bird if you actually read my posts I'm complimentary of many aspects of the film. When I saw it a second time with it now full immersed in the lather of a predominantly white media culture I was far more bothered by it.

Indeed I find the character of Lady Bird to be basic or as has been said in this very thread by mfunk and others who have been highly critical of me, it's a film that's been made many times before and better.

So when you look at it inside that frame is my disappointment, even outrage that the film is being hailed the way it is with the first 100% score and all that really that misplaced?

I know some members believe film to live in its own time and space, as if they exist in some sort of sanctuary that shouldn't be touched by the rest of culture.

I don't.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:20 pm 
User avatar

Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:54 pm
Location: Great Falls, Montana
Ribs is referring to the notion that any girl who announces in any public fashion that she plays video games she's assumed to be doing it for money and not that she may simply enjoy shooting virtual Nazis in the face. When applied to Gerwig I would imagine some people may assume she's approaching her work with the same naivety or faux whatever for success and profit.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:33 pm 

Joined: Wed May 05, 2010 11:06 pm
Magic Hate Ball wrote:
La La Land has bigger problems than having a confused opinion about white people gatekeeping jazz music.

And yet the main criticism I saw anywhere was about the film being racist.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:24 am 

Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 12:28 pm
Black Hat seems very wordy.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:51 am 
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:58 am
Location: Chicago, IL
Black Hat wrote:
Race however does play a part here as White America can never get enough of seeing idealized versions of themselves.

I don't know what you mean here. As a white person, I don't see how these characters are "idealized", much less in a way that apparently appeals broadly to white people in general.

Mind you, I'm not even trying to say you're wrong. I genuinely don't understand what you mean.

ETA quickly: I'm not even disagreeing that white people like seeing idealized versions of themselves, since basically all people everywhere like seeing idealized versions of themselves. I just don't see how that truism applies to this movie.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 98 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group




This site is not affiliated with The Criterion Collection