Prometheus (Ridley Scott, 2012)

[flyonthewall2983]

I'm a bit confused on this myself, and yeah I'm surprised there hasn't been a formal announcement from Fox on it, just second-hand stuff I've been reading so far. And I do believe the only way to get all the bonus features is to get the four-disc version, but the American version is 29.99 on Amazon so it's not too terribly expensive.

[flyonthewall2983]

Here's the formal announcement, finally.

[manicsounds]

Here, actually. Since it looks like the 4th DVD disc has no extras, I'm just going to go with the UK 3-disc version without the DVD copy...

[flyonthewall2983]

Pretty cool cover for the 4-disc edition.

[karmajuice]

I'm coming pretty late to the game here, but I thought I'd mount a modest defense of a very mixed film. I saw it back when it came out, in 3D IMAX, which was a lovely experience -- the film is well shot, and it had been a while since I'd seen anything on IMAX. The plot has plenty of problems, and you have talked about those details, but my enjoyment of the film is oriented around its thematic content.

What prompted this post was actually a post matrixschmatrix made in the Looper thread, comparing the two films. Here's the relevant excerpt:

Prometheus sets up a lot of big questions only to lose them in the course of running around and shooting at monsters

Which is partly true -- but I think that's precisely the point (although I'd argue it's less about shooting monsters and more about being mercilessly pulverized by them).

Alien was very much concerned with anxiety over invasion -- a monster in the ship, phallic beasts inside of you, rape anxiety, penetration. All that flows darkly under the skin of the film. Prometheus takes that a step further, and fixates on a fear of birth, creation, and offspring.

This manifests in several ways. Its root is in the biological weapon developed by the Engineers, something which breeds life in seemingly endless forms, but invariably hostile and invasive forms (phallic snakes, infections, parasites [children] which kill the hosts [mothers]). It finds its most explicit representation in the self-caesarean scene, where a mother extracts an unnatural infant from her body (it's a sardonically sentimental twist when this child inadvertently saves her life later*). This is all tied up in her anguish over her infertility, a fear of venereal disease (the infection her lover receives creates this organism), and a revulsion toward the thing you've created. Death as a result of creation is also a vital theme, and birth almost always requires a sacrifice, even with the Promethean Engineer at the beginning of the film.

A similar revulsion is directed toward Fassbender's android. It is seen as unnatural and antagonistic, yet it is created by us. The stoicism of Weyland's daughter is also significant -- both she and the actual android have been neglected or abused in some manner. Neglect of the child is central to this schema as well.

Neglect of the child/creation is also key to the relationship between the Engineers and humans, which is the central dynamic in the film and the heart of these anxieties. We are obsessed with where we come from, and when this crew ventures into space seeking out our origins, they have all sorts of high hopes about making contact with our creators and learning the truth.
Obviously, that's not how things turn out.

It goes beyond neglect. Our creators, while they resemble us, are intent on our destruction, for reasons beyond our knowledge. Upon being awakened, the Promethean figure immediately destroys everyone it can and sets out to annihilate our home planet. It's the sow that eats her farrow. Not only do our creators fail to provide insight regarding our purpose, they also exhibit an inexplicable abhorrence for us, akin to the more mild abhorrence that some of the characters feel toward the android. We are not wanted, and like any child, we want to be wanted.
In an interesting move, Fassbender's android possesses the most complex personality. He's the most rounded character, while most of the humans are stock characters, and the Engineer is little more than a belligerent savage. It's like each watered down duplicate becomes somehow more nuanced and humane than its predecessor.

The rest of the film expresses this central fear: the Engineer wreaks havoc and prepares to destroy the human race. Matrix implied that the more compelling themes were lost in the shuffle, but I see this as a culmination of those themes: the inability to achieve a certain degree of knowledge, and the inability to seek solace from a parent which abhors its offspring. In certain respects, the film parallels the story of Moby-Dick. A crew, led by a fanatic man of science (Ahab is part android himself), tries to track down the unknowable and ultimately (inevitably) fails (in this reading, the whale represents God, or the unknown). It's the hopeless effort of trying to find meaning outside of the self, following arbitrary pursuits, rather than making meaning for one's self. Even the uncanny paleness of the Engineers mirrors the whiteness of the whale.

That's kind of a summary of the themes, rather than an in-depth exploration, but hopefully it helps to show what I saw in the film, and why I think it's worth discussing seriously. The film has its flaws, but some compelling stuff is at work in it.

(*For anyone who has played Super Metroid, this scene probably felt familiar, although in that game the alien child's aid is a sacrifice, and a conscious one. But the correlation between that game series and this film series is interesting, because they've been mutually influential: the game's Ridley boss was named after Ridley Scott.)

[flyonthewall2983]

After just seeing it again, I feel much the same. I bought the Blu-ray yesterday and watched the film for the first time in 2D today. I watched a little bit of the documentaries but I’ll probably wade my way through it this week. For what it is, on it’s own and in relation to the franchise, it holds up for me. I’m not really an Alien fanboy, but I admire the first three films as they are in varying degrees. Trying to rise above expectations by asking bigger questions of the audience was an admirable goal of this film, and I think it worked for the most part.

[Roger Ryan]

While I have just begun wading through the extensive 4-disc set (which, for me, translates to two discs of material I wanted - the standard 2-D Blu-ray disc with commentaries and the "Special Features" disc), I have to commend everyone involved for producing such an extensive package the first time out. PROMETHEUS, four months after its theatrical debut, gets the same in-depth analysis as ALIEN and BLADE RUNNER did for their recent home video releases. It's a rare thing these days to have such a stacked release: two feature commentaries, three-hour plus documentary, over 30 minutes of deleted material, storyboards, etc.

Addressing just the deleted material, it becomes obvious that Scott went into this with a script that was in flux. Mention is made of restructuring the final third of the film in post-production and of the need to delete footage that was shot with an earlier version of the script in mind (footage that no longer made sense when the script was revised mid-shoot). It's also clear to me that Scott improved the film by eliminating (and re-shooting) footage that "explained" the central theme. Those who thought the final cut of PROMETHEUS was too ambiguous might change their minds after watching how the deleted material spelled everything out. As I mentioned, I have a lot more content to go through, but I'm getting the impression that the film could have turned out a lot worse than it did.

[oldsheperd]

I got through the Lindeloff/Spaihts commentary which was pretty good. It raised my appreciation of the film.
Looks like there will definitely be a sequel.

[colinr0380]

I liked the film a lot. Some of the nitpicks in the thread didn't seem too problematic to me. Maybe they will be become more irritating on repeat viewings but for now they seemed to work, mainly because they did not seem contrived to simply achieve a cheap shock or closure because there was no other option available. Rather the flaws felt as if they were exposing something important about the characters:

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For instance the characters who approach and seem too trusting of the deadly lifeforms don't seem too bad since they were trapped and did not have any weapons to defend themselves. They were manipulated into that situation but there wasn't really much they could do once circumstances had conspired to place them in that room.

Similarly I can buy the emergency Caesarian section simply because a futuristic setting allows for such things to happen. It is easy enough to suspend disbelief in the operation with the thought that technology might have moved on far enough to allow such a thing to be possible, and even that anaesthetics would be powerful enough to numb but also to allow someone to remain conscious and move around afterwards! After all in the rest of the film I am also believing in spaceship technology, hologram projections and alien worlds too!

And while the idea of running in the same direction that a circular object is rolling is rather silly, I think it works in the context of showing one character getting their comeuppance for abandoning their teammates in a time of crisis, with Shaw then doing the thing that the audience has been shouting at the screen for her to do and simply rolling sideways out of the way!

Some enterprising company really needs to release Mario Bava's Planet of the Vampires in the UK or US as a lot of what is on show in Prometheus, much like Alien before it, feels as if it gets prototyped out in the Bava film. Even the fluting on the uniforms in Prometheus feel like a call back to the uniforms in Planet of the Vampires! Not to mention the sequence of exploring the alien craft and finding the navigation room, along with

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the battle between two species leading to the 'Gods/creators returning to Earth' ending!

Away from the Bava film though, I did like the way Prometheus seemed to be taking a lot of iconographic elements from Alien and repurposing them (almost multiplying them amongst a wider set of characters, compared to the claustrophobic and tight narrowing down of Alien). I'm particularly thinking of sequences such as the antagonistic artificial person with a secret agenda guiding his machinations, followed by the severed head honest moment of connection; the expendable crew members vs the contents of the eggs, with the interesting twist that this element is almost completely irrelevant to the main storyline in Prometheus compared to being the central moment of the entire drama in Alien; the desperate rush to the escape pod against the clock count down followed by the scene in the lifeboat, the last man-made environment left, where there has to be a confrontation with alien beings; or the way that Vickers gets into the same position that Ripley had been in (and Vickers is very much the Ripley of this film - much more pragmatic compared to the idealistic Shaw) of trying to prevent an 'infected' crewmember from coming back into the ship, although she is much more successful at doing this than Ripley was!

One of the most successful aspects of the film was that morbid mythology, with the idea that the creation and end of life can be the same thing (the King is dead, long live the King!) Even before the horrific moments start, there is a palpable sense of doom hanging over everything. The Weyland corporation stuff neatly ties in with this too - Weyland is perhaps the biggest monster of the whole film with the quest for immortality and the turning away from a biological child to treat an artificial person as his heir (someone who can be programmed to serve and will supposedly last forever without dying, compared to passing over to a new generation to rule in their own way that might be very different from yours) leads to that almost Shakespearian end of destroying your bloodline totally by trying to hang on to your legacy too hard.

This also ties into ideas of exploration. I liked the idea that Shaw's quest to visit the Engineer's homeworld is kind of an echo of their original visit to the Earth. The return of the seeds of colonisation back to where it originated. I also liked the idea that wherever humanity goes, they will be treading in the footsteps of a previous civilisation, which I felt lent the film a very Tempest (or Forbidden Planet!) type feel. I suppose the references that the film makes to Lawrence of Arabia are relevant here too.

Shaw is almost a textbook definition of a flawed heroine. She hasn't really changed by the end of the film - she has just found another (or the same, just on a wider scale) set of questions that she wants answers to. That is likely the same attitude that got her into the position to head the expedition in the first place, but it does raise a number of questions. While the ending has some theological implications of meeting your Creator and so on, the aspect that most interests me about the ending is that throughout the film we have seen the cycle of death and life. We have seen the opening where one of the Engineers thousands, or hundreds of thousands, of years ago died to create humanity.

Shaw now wants to go to their homeworld and confront them to ask why they created us and then why try to kill us. But what if she finds that there is nobody there who could explain that to her? What if generations of Engineers have been and gone, and the reasons behind why they visited Earth, if they were significant in the first place, have disappeared with them? Would Shaw be able to accept that there might have been no reason at all behind that initial moment of creation? Or even that that initial sequence could have been the Engineers' version of an execution (an alien version of shipping a prisoner off to Australia), with the creation of life and impact on the planet just an unintended consequence?

That is where Shaw's idealism both lets her go on through some of the worst traumas imaginable, but also seems that it might never let her ever stop searching. In that sense I think we could see a linkage with some of Ridley Scott's historical films such as 1492: Conquest of Paradise and especially Kingdom of Heaven. In a way Shaw is off on her own Crusade at the end of the film - one for answers or righteous retribution, but also simply to keep moving because to stop might mean death.

[flyonthewall2983]

I can't articulate as well as colin but I'm glad to see reviews such as his, because it validates to me that it is a good movie. I'm one of the few fans of Ridley's output from Gladiator on (the majority of it at least). The real interesting thing watching the documentaries was that some of his primary collaborators from recent work were on board, and it was done with his chosen crew as opposed to Alien and Blade Runner where a lot of those positions were chosen already.

I'm really digging the idea that the Blade Runner sequel could act as a prequel to this film, especially if a younger version of Weyland is a character. As it is, I like that Guy is playing a villain in the next Iron Man (even if it is second banana to Ben Kingsley's accent). It's 15 years too late, but it's still cool seeing him get bigger roles now.

[colinr0380]

As it is, I like that Guy is playing a villain in the next Iron Man (even if it is second banana to Ben Kingsley's accent). It's 15 years too late, but it's still cool seeing him get bigger roles now.

Pearce has also been channelling his inner Snake Plissken in the recent film Lockout.

[knives]

The good news to one of your suggestions is that Planet of the Vampires does indeed have a US release.

[Forrest Taft]

The non-anamorphic MGM release of Planet of the Vampires is OOP, I think. You can still get it pretty cheap on amazon though.

I liked Prometheus sligthly less on my second viewing. The script is just too weak, flawed to the extent that the good work by Scott and his design team, plus roughly half the cast, can barely make up for it.

Not surprisingly, the 40 minutes worth of deleted scenes were mostly forgettable, redundant little bits and pieces. The extended climax was pretty terrific though, and should have stayed in the movie. It really bothered me that

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the Engineer came out of nowhere, with this great desire to kill Shaw. In the extended version, he seems to be exploring the ship out of curiosity. A frightened Shaw attacks him, and only then does he get enraged. According to Pietro Scalia, they took out these bits so that the Engineer could remain a more mysterious creature.

Oh, and please let me never again have to hear Noomi Rapace and the unbelievably boring Logan Marshall-Green discuss God and fertility and whatnot. Those scenes are more cringeworthy than even the worst moments in White Squall. Is it too convenient to blame shit like this on Damon Lindelof? I still think Prometheus is pretty good, certainly Scott's best since Matchstick Men, and I hope he does more sequels/prequels to Alien/Prometheus and/or Blade Runner.

[flyonthewall2983]

First time around, I thought Logan's (I heard a tiny rumor the reason he was cast was that Tom Hardy was busy elsewhere) character came off a little bit like the guy at the ball game who's all smiles and laughs but would think nothing of smacking his kid for pithy reasons. It didn't change a whole lot the 2nd time, but I found it easier to understand his frustration. Somehow making him a douchebag about it didn't help things, still. One deleted scene where he launches into that frustration, and turns it into a personal attack on Shaw would have justly made any audience hate him and thus lessen the effect of his death scene.

Fortunately that's all part of the dead weight that won't be around for the sequel. And an entire film with Shaw and David as the two lead characters, has potential if there's a solid script behind it. Highly doubtful he'd win, but I do hope Fassbender does at least get nominated for the work because it still stands out.

[R0lf]

I'm really digging the idea that the Blade Runner sequel could act as a prequel to this film, especially if a younger version of Weyland is a character.

There are too many animals in the Alien universe to join the two without making glaring continuity issues. Like having a cat on board the Nostromo (Ripley wouldn't go back to save a synthetic) or having a dog/ox on a prison colony.

[colinr0380]

It's already starting - the Weyland Archives section of the disc which features the viral marketing has some written material to accompany the David advert in which Weyland disparages a 'competitor' for his hybrid rather than purely artificial creations.

[Roger Ryan]

It's already starting - the Weyland Archives section of the disc which features the viral marketing has some written material to accompany the David advert in which Weyland disparages a 'competitor' for his hybrid rather than purely artificial creations.

It actually started with ALIENS back in '86: The bio for the Nostromo's Capt. Dallas, briefly glimpsed on the screen during Ripley's hearing, says he worked for the Tyrell Corporation for a few years!*

*There's no way any viewer would have caught this in the film itself, but the ALIEN ANTHOLOGY Blu-ray provides full-screen versions of the bios so fans can enjoy the little in-jokes that are included.

[flyonthewall2983]

There are too many animals in the Alien universe to join the two without making glaring continuity issues. Like having a cat on board the Nostromo (Ripley wouldn't go back to save a synthetic) or having a dog/ox on a prison colony.

People have unusual and unreasonable attachments to pets. The idea that this could apply in the future to synthetic animals would be an interesting one. As for the dog/ox, maybe it was more likely animals had bred on other planets and were more common place there.

[domino harvey]

First, I'd like to thank karmajuice for his very convincing defense of the film-- it certainly made me view the film in a friendlier light than I had initially received it. That said, I still feel like I'm on the opposite end of the spectrum than most, as I found the first two thirds of the film to be a constant irritation, with dull mutations, zombie spacemen, and above all the unnecessarily expensive looking sets, which are so ostentatious for no reason other than to flaunt a high production budget. I quickly became antagonistic to the film, a sort of Life Aquatic In Space art installation featuring the ocassional actor walking thru. However, I found a refreshing simplicity and clarity in the final third of the film, as things unravel in a hollow, empty fashion befitting the ultimate theme of what lies behind all creation.

[jbeall]

Hypothetical spoiler alert:
What Did Damon Lindelof Add to Prometheus? The Biggest Differences from the Original Draft.

[domino harvey]

I didn't watch Lost so I don't "get" why everyone on the internet has it out for the rewriter, but based on that article I can't even fathom how someone could consider what's described as the initial draft as being better than the film we got. Of course, I don't care much for the other Alien movies either so maybe I'm not the target audience here!

[jbeall]

I didn't watch Lost so I don't "get" why everyone on the internet has it out for the rewriter, but based on that article I can't even fathom how someone could consider what's described as the initial draft as being better than the film we got. Of course, I don't care much for the other Alien movies either so maybe I'm not the target audience here!

I can get behind the idea that the Lindelof rewrite is an improvement over the original, but the film's still a hot mess. By far my favorite part of Prometheus is its visual design, especially with its nods to classic sci-fi imagery, but the script just has too many holes and needs several rewrites.

[colinr0380]

I agree and think that Lindelof in his commentary track alternating with the original writer does seem to have gotten a lot of flack for the issues with the film (he does take responsibility for the two expendable scientists encountering the snake though, but I do agree that perhaps the deleted scene of the scientist's first encounter with a smaller version of the creatures, talking about his excitement of encountering life outside the Earth for the first time would have kind of mitigated the later scene a little!)

The original film seems as if it would have been much more of a re-tread of Alien, for better and worse, showing all of the origins of the classic monsters rather than being the kind of 'parallel universe/different LV planet' prequel that we have now.

EDIT: Also a lot of the 'sexburster' stuff would play uncomfortably close to Species - not just the H.R. Giger-styled monsters but also that scene in Species 2 where one of the returning astronauts turns into an alien mid-sex scene, impregnating the girl he is with, while the other girl he has just had sex with had a womb-bursting birth sequence in the bathroom next to them.

[Roger Ryan]

Most of the differences in the two scripts are addressed in the extensive bonus features on the full Blu-ray set. My take is that it was a good choice to remove the more obvious ALIEN material...and Scott made some good choices in removing some of the more ham-fisted moments found in the final shooting script during post-production. There are still weaknesses, but I'm glad the film took a somewhat higher road than one that would have showcased a chest-bursting sex scene.

[Finch]

I read the Spaiths draft "Engineers" and I thought it was a better script without the Lindelof revisions: it has too many minor characters that are merely there to be dispatched by the alien but it felt more consistent and had little of the idiotic character behaviour that mars the film. In this instance, I wouldn't minded a more conventional approach especially when what we got in the end tried to please too many people wanting different things at the same time and failed as both a horror film and a philosophical science fiction film. And the surgery sequence as originally written by Spaiths was fabulous - pity we didn't get to see it that way.