Disney Classics

[Feego]

I like Fantasia 2000.

[The Elegant Dandy Fop]

[Roger Ryan]

As wonderful and experimental as FANTASIA was/is, it's not such a perfect film that FANTASIA 2000 could not equal it in a number of segments. For as awkward as F2K may be at times, it contains nothing as cloying as the "Pastoral" from the first film. Both films contain extraordinary moments of animation. The original is perhaps more spectacular for being the first time some of these special animation effects were achieved (the documentary of effects specialist Herman Schultheis' recently uncovered notebook reveals some truly amazing ideas), but the sequel is quite impressive with its sense of concept and design.

I have no problem enjoying both.

And, by the way, the "Pomp and Circumstance" segment from F2K is worth it just for that subtle meta moment when Donald expresses confusion after seeing the pair of ducks (drawn much more naturalistically than himself).

[Kirkinson]

I also think Fantasia 2000 contains a few sequences that rival the original, which also has its weaknesses. Pines of Rome and The Firebird are great, and Rhapsody in Blue is practically perfect. That said, my main problem with the newer film is how mercilessly some of the music has been edited. This extends not just to dropping self-contained movements, but also to omitting major chunks of music within movements. Of course the original suffers some of this as well, but with 2000 I've always had the distinct impression that the music was edited not for pacing considerations of the film or the individual sequences, but so that it would all fit neatly onto a single CD. The Firebird suite has some fairly awkward moments in this regard, and the Beethoven is rendered so slight it feels like an afterthought, which it probably was.

And indeed, the celebrity cameos are very ill-advised, particularly the one with Bette Middler, in which she casually mocks all the legitimately intriguing ideas for other sequences that were considered and abandoned over the years.

Also the science is slightly sketchier 60 years on (unavoidably, of course, but that is part of the appeal and now it's weakened). Again, not the fault of the film makers. It's just dated.

In all fairness, while the "science" of the Rite of Spring sequence is inevitably outdated, it was already sketchy when the film was first released. Disney depicts dinosaurs and other prehistoric animals living side-by-side that were well-known even at the time to have lived several millions of years apart. Several hundred millions of years, in some cases, e.g., Parasaurolophus and Dimetrodon. They also depict (infamously to every dinosaur-obsessed child who sees it) a Tyrannosaurus rex with three fingers on each hand instead of two. I remember as a boy wondering if that could account for the time period difference by identifying it instead as Allosaurus, but then its size and proportions would be all wrong.

[MoonlitKnight]

I hate that "Fantasia 2000" redundantly also included The Sorcerer's Apprentice. But I agree it's worth seeing for Pines of Rome and Firebird Suite alone.

My main issue with The Rite of Spring and Pastoral Symphony in the original is that they go on for too long. One or two movements would have sufficed. It's also kind of awkward how the former is supposed to be about the development of Earth yet spends the majority of its time on the era of the dinosaurs.

[Roger Ryan]

I hate that "Fantasia 2000" redundantly also included The Sorcerer's Apprentice. ...

I believe the original plan was to release the film as FANTASIA CONTINUED (or FANTASIA REDUX), with approximately half the segments coming from the original film and half being ones newly-conceived (keeping true to Walt Disney's 1940 vision of reissuing the film every few years or so with new material each time). "The Sorcerer's Apprentice", "The Nutcracker Suite" and "Dance of the Hours" were all scheduled to be in the release. The "Rhapsody in Blue" segment was a late addition and it was decided the Gershwin piece would replace "Dance of the Hours". "The Nutcracker Suite" stayed in the film during early previews, but it was determined that the segment slowed the pacing down too much.

By this point, the idea of blending old with new kind of fell apart and I agree that it probably would have been better to replace "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" with something else. Of course, you can't just whip up a new animated sequence without delaying the release another year or two, but I'm thinking that DESTINO (completed in 2003) might have filled in nicely.

[knives]

As wonderful and experimental as FANTASIA was/is, it's not such a perfect film that FANTASIA 2000 could not equal it in a number of segments. For as awkward as F2K may be at times, it contain nothing as cloying as the "Pastoral" from the first film.

I rather enjoy Pastoral though my love of Luske's work may be blinding me there.
I'm rewatching this for the first time since it came out so I figured I'd give my thoughts. The host segemnts aren't particularly grating either (only Penn & Teller ruin their part) I must say. It comes across too much as them trying to make this a commercial too often, but none of it is as redundant as Taylor's original job. That's not to say Taylor did a bad job, he was far better than anyone here, but what he had to say was far more condescending.

As to the merits of the individual segments none of them really match their original counterpart (except Firebird if you compare it to Rites of Spring rather than Jackson's perfect duo) none of them are bad even the whipping boy of Pomp and Circumstance. I'd actually argue Pines of Rome is the weakest since it does nothing with a truly wonderful song. For most of these segments I already know I'm going to tie these images to the songs, but no so here. It's the one that is overly cutesy and abuses CGI horrifically. That same exact problem nearly kills Piano Concerto No.2 which was also directed by Butoy who I had not heard of before, but now just don't like. The strength in how they tell the story covers for the frankly horrible animation and sappy interaction. That said the interlude with the fish boat just comes across as padding and doesn't make sense. I guess it's more the strength of the song that makes me like it than the actual segment.

What really surprised me, especially as I love the sequence it's clearly trying to be, is Symphony No. 5. I could see how the use of butterflies may make it seem less than the Fischinger segment, but it's still imaginative enough to acquit itself from the negatives of that comparison. I really don't have a high opinion of Hunt, but he deserves some respect for that.

Naturally everyone talks about Rhapsody in Blue which is a total showstopper by the most talented artist in the film, but I think Goldberg's second segment The Carnival of Animals deserves some recognition too for how strongly it show's his versatility and because it's legitimately good, even if not up to the level of Rhapsody in Blue. To be more specific I think the animation here, particularly the colouring, is my favorite of all of the segments. Really more than any other segment this is how I'm going to view this piece of music even if it is just a twenty second bit.

I should probably excuse myself for say Pomp and Circumstance is at all bearable. Firstly it's just a great example of what animation can do with reality. It's for me the most Disney segment (appropriately I guess) with a great look that works to almost explain where Disney started visually and where they were going. The sense of humour's really well done too with Donald just doing what he does best (needless to say he's my favorite of the Disney characters). So as a short for the character if not a piece on the whole I think it might actually be better than Sorcerer's Apprentice.

In general I'm not a fan of Igor Stravinsky with him being as loud and hollow as Wagner at times, but the version they used for Firebird just works for me in a way that instantly makes it better than The Rites of Spring. Of course even if they did go with a less satisfactory version the Brizzi's managed to weave a story so beautiful and painful that it just works. The sequence of the firebird is as tense and frightening the Night on Bald Mountain sequence, but it takes a somber attitude that they needed a whole other piece for. The switching of tragedy and elation from most stories is a tricky one to pull off, but it clearly does that. I also like how it works itself as an environmentalism story with out needing to rub our noses in it or even to bring in a human factor. It's about as Malickian as a silent animated short can be in that regard.

I hope my defense at least convinces you guys to see it once more.

[dad1153]

I had a $10 Best Buy card burning a square in my wallet, so I decided to waste it on either "Pinocchio" or the "Fantasia" OOP BD's that I still don't have (already have "Snow White" and "Sleeping Beauty"). Went with "Pinocchio" because there were only two copies left in the store (they had about 15 "Fantasia" BD's left) and, since I've never seen either one, "Pinocchio" seems to be the easier of the two to get into.

[zedz]

Pinocchio is probably Disney's masterpiece. The final twenty minutes (basically from when things go underwater) is arguably the greatest tour-de-force of classical animation.

[HypnoHelioStaticStasis]

Pinocchio is probably Disney's masterpiece. The final twenty minutes (basically from when things go underwater) is arguably the greatest tour-de-force of classical animation.

Completely agree, Zedz. I'd also argue that it features quite possible the most terrifying scene in motion picture history (animation or otherwise): the transformation of Lampwick into the jackass. Did anyone else get nightmares from this like I did? There's just something so primal and morbid and uncanny about it, and his scream of "MAMAAAAAAAAA..."

*shudder*

[Zot!]

Oh god yes. Say what you will about all the insensitive subject matter in cartoons of that era, but along with that we lost any kind of realism or moral ambiguity. You know in Pinnochio 2000, they would go back and spring the jackass kids, transform them back somehow and end with an Elton John number.

[Michael Kerpan]

Another vote for Pinocchio as Disney's greatest work ever. Might pick Dumbo as no. 2 (thanks to the Blu-Ray -- STILL missing here in the USA).

[Kirkinson]

...the transformation of Lampwick into the jackass. Did anyone else get nightmares from this like I did?

Repeatedly, though it never stopped me from watching the movie again. Incidentally, I haven't seen Pinocchio in years and have been meaning to revisit it, so thank you to the last few posters for the renewed encouragement.

[knives]

Another vote for Pinocchio as Disney's greatest work ever. Might pick Dumbo as no. 2 (thanks to the Blu-Ray -- STILL missing here in the USA).

In all honesty I can't choose between the two because in part they are so different and are equally powerful in those differences. I might give Dumbo the edge though since it feels more purely animated without the twists and turns of a story or logic really needed (except of course some of the Mama Jumbo stuff).

[The Elegant Dandy Fop]

Did anyone else get nightmares from this like I did? There's just something so primal and morbid and uncanny about it, and his scream of "MAMAAAAAAAAA..."

*shudder*

I didn't get nightmares, but it's one of those images that sticks with you throughout your childhood and gives you chills when you think about it.

I actually still think about that scene; most recently a week ago. I was de-fleaing a cat when it made a meow that sounded just like the jackasses in that scene. I even said aloud "MAMMMMAAAA! MMMMAAAAAMMMAA!".

[Quot]

What are everyone's feelings on Song of the South and Disney's decision to keep it buried in the vaults...for the time being? Are the plantation scenes (supposedly Reconstruction-era, that depict a "happy" life for the slaves) any more offensive than those in Gone With the Wind? Being well-versed on the film as a child, my childhood love for it has since turned into a more enlightened appreciation, but I really have no idea how kids today (black or white) would take to it. I'm curious if we have members here who have introduced it to their nieces, nephews, or sons or daughters.

[matrixschmatrix]

I haven't seen Song of the South since I watched it in class as a little kid, so I can't comment specifically on how acceptable it is, but I think Disney's general policy of burying anything they're worried will offend people, rather than putting it out with contextual information and what have you, kind of sucks.

For tiny things- cropping out the servile black centaur in Fantasia, say- that could potentially change the tone of an entire film, I'm willing to go with the 'if you need it for scholarly reasons you can see stills but it's not an integral part of the movie and we don't want to make little black kids feel like shit' explanation, but I think burying an entire movie just leads to a bunch of people who insist there was never anything problematic about it in the first place, and nobody getting to see it as a historical document or for what strengths it actually does have.

It seems like the easiest out would be to release it without giving it normal Disney marketing- as interchangeable product for kids, which seems to be how their movies are usually sold, it would be really problematic, but in an adult-oriented market that's expected to able to make their own judgments about Birth of a Nation and Triumph of the Will, it's silly to pretend it's radioactive.

[Saturnome]

The difference with Birth of a Nation is that Disney would release it. I'm sure the press will jump over it. I think they want to avoid being in the news with stuff like "Disney release racist film - incredibly evil and hate-filled kid cartoon now in the hands of your children in 7 discs ultra combo pack", even with a two hours long, unskippable intro by Leonard Maltin and Whoopi Goldberg. Stores are going to put it in the children section and parents will think the warning stickers are cute, stylish or something.

I heard of the rumors that Warner is planning to release the censored eleven in the Archives, I wonder how that will turn out. The rumor itself made quite a buzz.

[Tom Hagen]

The various segments from Song of the South aired continuously during the nascent days of the Disney Channel in the 1980s. My dad worked for the cable company, so we got everything free, including the premium channels of which Disney was one at the time. They filled their programming schedule in the morning hours (after my mom did her Mousercising!) with all of the shorts and clips from all of the classic films. The tar baby segment was on constantly. It's sort of amazing how far the limits of cultural acceptability have shifted in just twenty five years.

[matrixschmatrix]

It's sort of amazing how far the limits of cultural acceptability have shifted in just twenty five years.

Which is a good thing, by and large- I had a black friend growing up who kept having kids come up to him and do Heckyl and Jeckyll voices at him, not necessarily out of deliberate malice so much as some weird idea that doing so was an appropriate way to relate to black people (his was the only black family in town.) People decry the idea political correctness as being meaningless handwaving, but a broad cultural sense that those kind of shuckin' and jivin' stereotypes are something shameful would have made life a lot easier for him in some ways.

I'm certainly not advocating censorship, but the idea that one shouldn't deliberate program problematic material for little kids- who aren't likely to have the savvy to view it dispassionately or from a historical standpoint- isn't a bad one.

[Quot]

The various segments from Song of the South aired continuously during the nascent days of the Disney Channel in the 1980s. My dad worked for the cable company, so we got everything free, including the premium channels of which Disney was one at the time. They filled their programming schedule in the morning hours (after my mom did her Mousercising!) with all of the shorts and clips from all of the classic films. The tar baby segment was on constantly. It's sort of amazing how far the limits of cultural acceptability have shifted in just twenty five years.

I haven't seen any of the clips that were shown on the Disney Channel out of context. I'm curious - did they do any vocal redubbing? One of the many complaints against the film as a whole was the depiction of the language spoken by the "uneducated" slaves which, in the retelling of the fables, was transferred to the animated characters.

[Tom Hagen]

I have no idea. I was four at the time. A lot of my recollection is along the lines of "it was really funny when Donald got pissed off and started throwing ice bombs at his nephews instead of snow balls."

[Feego]

One of the major problems I see is that the fact that Disney has suppressed the film for so long has brought it so much attention to the problematic material that I think it would be virtually impossible now for them to release it without attracting an onslaught of controversy. Like Tom Hagen, I too saw the Tar Baby segment constantly on the Disney Channel when I was about 4 or 5 (as well as reading the story in a Disney Book), and my memories of it are quite vague. Because of my age, I was certainly unaware of the racial nature of it. I do know that the "Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah" number was included (in a "sanitized" version) in some of those old Disney Sing-a-Long videos from the early to mid 90s (and the song itself made the AFI's 100 Greatest Songs list).

While never having seen the entire film myself, I would think that the now politically-incorrect aspects of it are closer to Gone with the Wind than The Birth of a Nation, and while these should most certainly not go unmentioned and just be placed in the children's section next to all of the other Disney features, I think the years of suppression have blown up the controversy to something even greater than it should be. It might have been a good idea to release the film in a similar fashion to their Disney Treasures collections, marketing it more as an educational/historical set rather than just another Disney feature, complete with more subdued packaging instead of a brightly colored designed that would immediately attract children. While I understand the pull that the Disney label has, I don't think too many children clamored for their parents to buy them On the Front Lines.

[Tom Hagen]

I do know that the "Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah" number was included (in a "sanitized" version) in some of those old Disney Sing-a-Long videos from the early to mid 90s (and the song itself made the AFI's 100 Greatest Songs list).

Also, one of the signature rides at Disneyland is based on this song, and really the whole movie. Kids today have to be so confused when they go on that one.

[swo17]

I seem to remember the story of Br'er Rabbit and the Tar Baby being one of my very favorites as a child, though I think I knew it more from a book (that came with a cassette tape?) than from the movie. (Man, my parents were all about books and cassettes.) I don't know if it was my favorite because I chose it over other stories, or because they pushed it on me, and if so, whether that makes my parents secretly racist, but I think I turned out alright, or in any case, my unique brand of bigotry has nothing to do with the Walt Disney Company.