Fernando Arrabal

[Keith Kawaii]

Years ago I saw a small segment of this old 'surrealist' movie. All I can remember was a boy, who the movie was about, pissing off of a tower, and flooding his whole town with piss. I think it was Italian, set in war time, but I'm not sure... Ive been trying to find this movie for sporadically for over a year, to no avail.
Can anyone help me out?

[vogler]

Years ago I saw a small segment of this old 'surrealist' movie. All I can remember was a boy, who the movie was about, pissing off of a tower, and flooding his whole town with piss. I think it was Italian, set in war time, but I'm not sure... Ive been trying to find this movie for sporadically for over a year, to no avail.
Can anyone help me out?

That sounds like it must be Viva La Muerte by Fernando Arrabal. I can't imagine that there could be another film with a scene like that. A truly great film. Arrabal is Spanish and the film is set during the Spanish Civil War but it is in French (unless you listen to the dreadful Spanish dub). It can be bought in a box set of Arrabal films from Cult Epics. The other two films are also excellent. In my opinion Arrabal is a genius.

[Keith Kawaii]

God... thank you, I knew I could count on the criterion forums.
I just read where Fernando Arrabal was compared to a 'poor mans Jodorowsky'

[toiletduck!]

Pish!

Arrabal was every bit a part of the Panic Movement as Jods -- his film work might not be as widely known, but his stage work is far more popular. It's important to remember that the Panic Movement wasn't limited to film -- whoever said that of Arrabal was obviously unaware.

-Toilet Dcuk

[Cinephrenic]

We can compare his style to Jodorowsky, no? Surrealism?

[toiletduck!]

We can compare his style to Jodorowsky, no?

Oh, absolutely! Sorry about the confusion; my contention was with the "poor man's", not the Jodorowsky comparison.

Surrealism?

You'll find (oh so briefly in the Jodorowsky thread) that I tend to shy away from classifying this work as Surrealistic -- at least that of Jodorowsky, I'm only familiar with Arrabal's stage work at this point (gasp!), but I can't imagine it changing that part of my mind much. But that's taking into consideration that I have a pretty strict, purist definition of Surrealism. Plus, you'll also find that I'm definitely in the minority, so yeah, go right ahead!

-Toilet Dcuk

[vogler]

Poor mans Jodorowsky? No fucking way - more like millionaires Jodorowsky. I love Jodorowsky's work but Arrabal just creeps ahead in my opinion. His work is largely free of the mythology and spiritualism of Jodorowsky and his themes are more political. Arrabal's work is largely a subversive attack on society, religion, fascism etc. I tend to connect with his themes more than Jodorowsky's. Technically I very much like his films as well. OK, so they are rough around the edges, but I find them to be more experimental in terms of film-making technique and I love the jarring editing and fragmented narrative. The early use of colour tinted video on some sections of Viva La Muerte is particularly interesting and effective.

I'm only familiar with Arrabal's stage work at this point (gasp!)

No, this won't do at all. I insist that you buy the Arrabal box set now. I reckon you're going to love these films, maybe even more than Jodorowsky.

You'll find (oh so briefly in the Jodorowsky thread) that I tend to shy away from classifying this work as Surrealistic -- at least that of Jodorowsky, I'm only familiar with Arrabal's stage work at this point (gasp!), but I can't imagine it changing that part of my mind much. But that's taking into consideration that I have a pretty strict, purist definition of Surrealism. Plus, you'll also find that I'm definitely in the minority, so yeah, go right ahead!

I wouldn't classify the work of the Panic movement as 'Surrealist' either, however I do feel that they come closer to the spirit of true surrealism than practically any other artists following the original surrealist movement. This probably does apply more to Arrabal than Jodorowsky. In fact the only film-maker who I would truly classify as a surrealist would be Jan Svankmajer who considers himself a surrealist and is an important member of the Czech Surrealist movement. These days the term Surreal is so over used that it has become practically meanigless in an artistic sense. It is generally used to describe anything that's a bit strange. In fact many people think the Surrealist movement got it's name from the word surreal rather than vice versa. I believe we have Guillaume Apollinaire to thank for the word and to some extent the surrealist movement itself.

toiletduck, for some reason every time I write a lengthy reply to one of your posts it vanishes into the ether when I click submit. The sight of that 'page cannot be displayed' and my heart sinks when I realise the whole post is lost. This happened just a short while ago with this post and I had to rewrite the little bastard from scratch. It was much better first time but never mind - shit happens. Same thing happened on the Makavejev thread - I wrote probably the longest and best post I've ever done on any forum and the swine of a thing got swallowed up by that damn useless internet explorer. The Makvejev incident occurred when I was staying at my Mother's house and she must have been horrified at the sight of me repeatedly screaming 'YOU CUNT' at her laptop. So the lesson I have learnt is to always write long posts in word and then paste them in the submit box.

[Keith Kawaii]

I just saw a surrealist detergent commercial.

But really... it sometimes surprises me why more movies like this aren't being made, maybe I'm just not looking in the right places. It seems that 'surrealism' has been so integrated into mainstream culture, but at the same time more popular films always follow the 3 act plot driven formula.

[miless]

In fact the only film-maker who I would truly classify as a surrealist would be Jan Svankmajer who considers himself a surrealist and is an important member of the Czech Surrealist movement.

I'm assuming that you are not including members of the surrealist movement (Man Ray, Jean Cocteau, Luis Buñuel)

[vogler]

In fact the only film-maker who I would truly classify as a surrealist would be Jan Svankmajer who considers himself a surrealist and is an important member of the Czech Surrealist movement.

I'm assuming that you are not including members of the surrealist movement (Man Ray, Jean Cocteau, Luis Buñuel)

Yes, I am not including the film-makers who were members of the original Surrealist movement. Man Ray and Luis Buñuel were certainly surrealist film-makers, although Man Ray's films were never considered to be fully successful surrealism by the other surrealists. It could be argued that Luis Buñuel's Un Chien Andalou and L'Age d'Or are the only two 100% true surrealist films. Almost all of his films show the influence that surrealism had on him in some way. Buñuel has to be the closest to cinematic surrealism under the strictest definition.

Germaine Dulac's La Coquille et le Clergyman is often considered a surrealist film due to the fact that it is based on the work of Antonin Artaud (although I believe he was no longer a member of the Surrealist group at that time). She was certainly never a surrealist though and Artaud and the Surrealists despised the film feeling that it was a terrible corruption of the work. At the premiere of the film André Breton reportedly stood up during the credits of the film and announced to the audience 'I have to say that Mme Germaine Dulac is an arsehole.'

I don't believe that Jean Cocteau was ever a member of the Surrealist movement was he? I don't consider his films surrealist although there appears to be a surrealist influence. I believe that Cocteau claimed otherwise, stating that the ideas for the film were conceived before the Surrealist movement existed.

[miless]

I don't believe that Jean Cocteau was ever a member of the Surrealist movement was he? I don't consider his films surrealist although there appears to be a surrealist influence. I believe that Cocteau claimed otherwise, stating that the ideas for the film were conceived before the Surrealist movement existed.

I believe that Cocteau became the de-facto leader of the Surrealists when all, or most, of the original members moved out of France, or were imprisoned due to events preceding and caused by WWII

edit: hmm, I don't remember where I read it, but it seems as if the information above is wrong. Le Sang d'Un Poète was funded by the Vicomte de Noailles whom supported the surrealists (and funded Buñuel's L'Age d'Or). André Breton disliked any association between Cocteau and surrealism (and apparently so did Cocteau).

[colinr0380]

toiletduck, for some reason every time I write a lengthy reply to one of your posts it vanishes into the ether when I click submit. The sight of that 'page cannot be displayed' and my heart sinks when I realise the whole post is lost.

I always highlight and copy before posting in case the same happens, or if I've spent so long writing a response that I've been logged out! It makes it easier to go back and then paste the text back into the box.

[zedz]

Yes, I am not including the film-makers who were members of the original Surrealist movement. Man Ray and Luis Buñuel were certainly surrealist film-makers, although Man Ray's films were never considered to be fully successful surrealism by the other surrealists. It could be argued that Luis Buñuel's Un Chien Andalou and L'Age d'Or are the only two 100% true surrealist films. Almost all of his films show the influence that surrealism had on him in some way. Buñuel has to be the closest to cinematic surrealism under the strictest definition.

Germaine Dulac's La Coquille et le Clergyman is often considered a surrealist film due to the fact that it is based on the work of Antonin Artaud (although I believe he was no longer a member of the Surrealist group at that time). She was certainly never a surrealist though and Artaud and the Surrealists despised the film feeling that it was a terrible corruption of the work. At the premiere of the film André Breton reportedly stood up during the credits of the film and announced to the audience 'I have to say that Mme Germaine Dulac is an arsehole.'

I don't believe that Jean Cocteau was ever a member of the Surrealist movement was he? I don't consider his films surrealist although there appears to be a surrealist influence. I believe that Cocteau claimed otherwise, stating that the ideas for the film were conceived before the Surrealist movement existed.

This is a vexed area. Many of the contenders for the title of Surrealist Film were disavowed by their makers (Cocteau, if I'm not mistaken, repeatedly denied that Blood of a Poet was a surrealist film) or the movement itself (Coquille). Yet another academic turf war! I agree regarding Bunuel (and absolutely re. Svankmajer), but wasn't one of the films (L'Age d'Or, I think) excommunicated by Breton?

I don't see Man Ray's films as really convincingly surrealist. I don't even find them particularly compelling as experimental films, and I doubt they'd be well remembered today if a less renowned artist had made them. Bunuel aside, I think the most exciting French experimental work of the 20s was coming from the Impressionists.

[Keith Kawaii]

This may be a bad term to use, but Un Chien Andalou and L'Age d'Or strike me as 'warm' films, for some reason. Despite the lack of any conventional narrative, I actually had a stronger visceral connection to the characters in those early ones than in 'Discreet Charm' or 'That Obscure Object'

Either way... I still think 'surrealism' in film could expand greatly in modern times.

[Felix]

No, this won't do at all. I insist that you buy the Arrabal box set now.

Vogler, you are luckier than I am. I am on my second copy of Viva La Muerte and still cannot get past the FBI Warning, where it freezes after six seconds, the first time was from a single DVD, this time from the boxset, so there must be some problem here.

I have mailed Cult Epics to make them aware of the situation, is anyone else having the same problems?

Oh, and vis-a-vis the previous conversation and Pope Andre Breton; the man was a wanker of the first order; deciding who was and was not a Surrealist inded... He had little time for the women of the Surrealist movement, Fini, Carrington, Varo, any one of whom had more talent in any of their little fingers than Breton had in his entire body.

[Quot]

No, this won't do at all. I insist that you buy the Arrabal box set now.

Vogler, you are luckier than I am. I am on my second copy of Viva La Muerte and still cannot get past the FBI Warning, where it freezes after six seconds, the first time was from a single DVD, this time from the boxset, so there must be some problem here.

I have mailed Cult Epics to make them aware of the situation, is anyone else having the same problems?

Yes. My copy has the same problem when I try to play it on my high-end system, but it plays fine on a cheapie player and on my pc, so I haven't sought out a replacement.