The Thing vs Alien

[Highway 61]

I just saw this for the first time two days ago. Although I only expected campy eighties horror fun, I was actually very impressed with the film, namely how superior I found it to Alien, which it shares so many similarities with.

Alien has never done anything for me, despite how much I enjoy the horror genre. I think it's pretty boring actually. Admittedly, I saw it over twenty years after it was released, so I knew well in advance about the chest burster and Ripley's survival. Still, I don't think it holds up. I first saw Psycho knowing every essential detail of the plot, but it's still a very unsettling film. Alien, on the other hand, is really just a big dud for me. All the suspense in the movie comes from the movie's big, shocking set piece, H.R. Giger's brilliant, grotesque artwork, and the similarly surreal design of the Nostromo-- the room housing Mother, for instance, or the wet chains hanging form the ceilings, etc. The suspense in The Thing, however, develops from exploring the paranoia and fear of another organism living inside you. I thought it was a much better take on what is virtually the same premise.

I suppose the most obvious reason for the preference of Scott's film over Carpenter's is that the former is much less cartoony. I agree with this, but Alien sure has it's ridiculous moments. Namely, the end featuring a man in a suit out to get a woman in her panties, but also, the completely out of no where reveal that Ian Holm is a robot, not to mention Holm's smothering of a man with a porn mag a few moments earlier. Besides, for all the seriousness and bleakness that Alien prides itself on, nothing in the movie touches the ending of The Thing

Regardless of which is the greater film, I thought Carpenter's movie was an excellent popcorn picture with plenty of highlights: Kurt Russell's performance, Ennio Morricone's score (with contributions from Carpenter I'm sure), and some of the best practical effects I have ever seen. And now I'm dying to see the original Hawks/Nyby film.

Edit: Just saw that I posted this in the wrong forum. Very sorry about that.

[Mr Sausage]

the completely out of no where reveal that Ian Holm is a robot, not to mention Holm's smothering of a man with a porn mag a few moments earlier

It's not completely out of nowhere; the movie has been hinting at Ash's strangeness throughout. But the fact that it seemingly comes out of nowhere, set-up as it is by his growing strangeness, creates that considerable effect of shock in the audience, an effect you'll find is very hard to create when your audience has been expecting the turn.

Oh, and it was Ripley's throat Ash was trying to shove the magazine down. Scott explained it as sexually motivated (hence the porn mag), as though Ash, lacking the sex drive and perhaps the parts of a human, were acting out some desire through a symbolic rape.

Edit: Just saw that I posted this in the wrong forum. Very sorry about that.

No problem. I've moved it to the correct forum.

[Highway 61]

Thanks for moving the thread. It's my first topic, and I kicked myself for botching it.

Regarding Ash's reveal, I realize that Ash behaved strangely and antagonized the other crew members, but I still think it's clumsy rather than shocking. What ruins it for me is that the other characters aren't shocked that a person they've been working with for some time now is a robot. If I remember correctly Kotto says something like, "Ash is a goddamn robot!" and that's the extent of their reaction. Then again, I tend to hate twists in most any movie, so maybe my judgement is clouded. And yes, the pornography chocking makes more sense knowing that it was Ripley, not one of the male characters.

[Mr Sausage]

Thanks for moving the thread. It's my first topic, and I kicked myself for botching it.

Regarding Ash's reveal, I realize that Ash behaved strangely and antagonized the other crew members, but I still think it's clumsy rather than shocking. What ruins it for me is that the other characters aren't shocked that a person they've been working with for some time now is a robot. If I remember correctly Kotto says something like, "Ash is a goddamn robot!" and that's the extent of their reaction. Then again, I tend to hate twists in most any movie, so maybe my judgement is clouded. And yes, the pornography chocking makes more sense knowing that it was Ripley, not one of the male characters.

I don't know, they looked pretty shocked to me. I guess having to fight a half-decapitated android squirting white fluid everywhere as it tries to strangle you is going to reduce the amount of time you have to look on in shock and awe.

Anyway, the ellipsis from the end of the fight to the rewiring pretty well covered that period where everyone gets to stand around saying "what the fuck?" A section we can fill in mentally.

[Polybius]

No, I don't think so. Alien a great piece of Suspense filmmaking and also one of the signature films of the intelligent SF genre, a branch of films that has been under loud and stupid assault from Lucas and all of his misbegotten Summer imitators for nearly three decades, now.

Don't get me wrong, I love The Thing. It's a really good film (for the reasons you mention, except for the effects, which I've never really liked and generally just overlook...although the upside down head that sprouts spideresque legs and MacReady's reaction to it are both highlights), plus the really palpable sense of isolation, a hostile environment and paranoia and a generally top notch cast of character actor types, getting a chance to do a bit more than usual. (Richard Masur, Donald Moffat and Keith David, in his first role, all shine.)

It also has one of my favorite endings for any film, on a par with Five Easy Pieces and The Hill for sheer impact.

The Hawks film is a bit farther away from the Campbell story, but it shares his crummy political attitude. (Lotsa pie-in-the-sky eggheads who just wanna talk, talk, talk instead of kill, kill, kill...)

[Roger_Thornhill]

I'm also a big admirer of Carpenter's The Thing, which I personally feel is his best film in a career that is relatively neglected and ignored in the United States. The tension and sense of paranoia that slowly builds to a frenzied boiling point is masterfully done and I agree the special effects are still astonishing. The ambiguous ending has led to numerous conversations with friends who appreciate The Thing, although I've heard there's a video game sequel of sorts that attempts to answer those questions. I'm not sure I want to know.

The Thing is also one of those rare remakes that is superior to the original, although one could make the arguement that Carpenter's film isn't a remake but more like a more faithful adaptation of the short story Nyby/Hawks and Carpenter's films are based on. You can tell how much Carpenter loves the original by paying homage to it in Halloween when he shows several characters watching it on TV.

I have to disagree with you about Alien though, I think the twist works fine and perfectly fits the Alien franchise themes of corporate corruption/abuse and that the more dangerous of the species are the humans. As Ripley said in Aliens, "You know Burke, I don't know which species is worse. You don't see them fucking each other over for a goddamn percentage!" It's a bit more subtle in Scott's film.

At the very least Highway 61 you have to admit Alien is a visually stunning film with fantastic production design and attention to details (such as the worn out look of the ship). The complex sound design of Alien also needs to be mentioned, best exemplified in the sequence where Tom Skerrit is searching through the maze of ducts to find the alien - quite a few layers there that add to the suspense of that sequence!

I wonder how influenced Scott was by Carpenter's Halloween considering Alien is essentially a slasher film in outer space? Perhaps I should take out my copy of Alien and listen to the commentary track that I've been meaning to do for years.

[Highway 61]

Man, I'm just taking a beating here! You didn't think the effect were any good? I admit that the finale shows its age, but everything else was top notch for its day.

Roger, I do agree that Alien is remarkable visually from the opening titles to the finish. I tried to acknowledge this in my first post, but I guess it didn't come through. My only beef is that the visuals don't generate sufficient horror and suspense, especially for its reputation. I thought The Thing succeeded where Alien failed by concentrating on character interaction and breakdown with what was essentially the same idea. Obviously, I'm in the minority here. Maybe this us all just a pent up expression of my closest love for Alien 3

[Gordon]

I appreciate both films, though I do find The Thing more interesting psychologically, but both films have tremendous suspense and shock sequences. However, it has to be said that Alien itself altered the 'intellgent sci-fi' landscape by adding gore and things got more and more out of control over the next twenty years. John Campbell's 1937 (I believe) story, Who Goes There? has a great premise and great ideas, but curiously, it actually lacks the suspense present even in the Hawks film which was increased considerably by Bill Lancaster (not W.D. Richter as I stated in another thread! ) and Carpenter. The Thing is an amazing ensemble piece, with brilliant actors playing each part to perfection in a highly unique setting and situation. The set design - especially the frozen Norwegian camp - and the predominantly blue and grey cinematography are very impressive and Carpenter, as always puts or moves the camera in the right place in what is a very claustrophobic film. As is Alien. The Abyss finally revealed to us the third setting - the deep ocean - after Antarctica and deep space that lends itself to maximal isolation in sci-fi suspense film, though the outcome of that film is quite different from these two.

Alien and The Thing are not wholly original in their ideas, but they are the best films of their kind and I have returned to both often over the years. The original Italian dialogue version of Mario Bava's, Planet of the Vampires is also a firm favourite.

[Commander Shears]

The Thing - Kurt Russell in an unexplained giant hat.
Alien - no Kurt. no unexplained giant hat.

Carpenter wins by default.

[Polybius]

The Thing - Kurt Russell in an unexplained giant hat.
Alien - no Kurt. no unexplained giant hat.

Carpenter wins by default.

Helicopters and sombreros go together like peanut butter and jelly 8-)

John Campbell's 1937 (I believe) story, Who Goes There? has a great premise and great ideas, but curiously, it actually lacks the suspense present even in the Hawks film which was increased considerably by Bill Lancaster (not W.D. Richter as I stated in another thread! ) and Carpenter.

John was a truly awful prose stylist. He wrote like an engineer doing a community college fiction workshop project.
I should mention how much I love Moffat's line at the end of the scene with the hot coil and the blood samples: "I know you gentlemen have been through a lot, but when you find the time, I'd rather not spend the rest of this winter TIED TO THIS FUCKING COUCH!"

[Derek Estes]

I also feel that The Thing is the stronger film. Though I do love the first half of Alien, I totally lose interest after the chest exploding scene. The Gieger designed alien, looks too silly for me personally, particularly compared to the creepy the knuckle creature. And the end scene with Sigorney Weaver in her panties just strikes me as completely retarded. That's just my feeling.

[Fletch F. Fletch]

I'm also a big admirer of Carpenter's The Thing, which I personally feel is his best film in a career that is relatively neglected and ignored in the United States.

Have you ever read the BFI book on the movie? It is a great analysis and appreciation of this underrated film.

The ambiguous ending has led to numerous conversations with friends who appreciate The Thing, although I've heard there's a video game sequel of sorts that attempts to answer those questions. I'm not sure I want to know.

It sort of does, sort of doesn't. It is actually very good and really does an amazing job of recreating the paranoia and claustraphobia of the movie. A must-play for any fan of this movie, actually.

I have to disagree with you about Alien though, I think the twist works fine and perfectly fits the Alien franchise themes of corporate corruption/abuse and that the more dangerous of the species are the humans. As Ripley said in Aliens, "You know Burke, I don't know which species is worse. You don't see them fucking each other over for a goddamn percentage!" It's a bit more subtle in Scott's film.

I suppose but Aliens was always my fave of the series. The whole Vietnam War allegory, the classic lines (basically everything Hudson says) and the over-the-top battle royale between Ripley and the Queen bee Alien. I also think that the tension in James Cameron's film is exquisite. Especially once the marines start finding messed up colonists. Sweet.

[Roger_Thornhill]

Maybe this us all just a pent up expression of my closest love for Alien 3

I guess there's two of us then! I've always liked Alien 3 and will defend it to my last day. In any event, I think even it's numerous detractors have to admit it's vastly better than Alien Resurrection.

Have you ever read the BFI book on the movie? It is a great analysis and appreciation of this underrated film.

No I haven't, I'll have to check that out. Thanks!

It sort of does, sort of doesn't. It is actually very good and really does an amazing job of recreating the paranoia and claustraphobia of the movie. A must-play for any fan of this movie, actually.

That's for PS 2, right? I'm surprised it's a good game considering most video games based on movies usually are a waste of time. But then, I haven't really played video games heavily since the days of the Super Nintendo.

I suppose but Aliens was always my fave of the series. The whole Vietnam War allegory, the classic lines (basically everything Hudson says) and the over-the-top battle royale between Ripley and the Queen bee Alien. I also think that the tension in James Cameron's film is exquisite. Especially once the marines start finding messed up colonists. Sweet.

Oh I'm not trying to knock Aliens or Cameron, it's just that the word 'subtle' isn't in his dictionary. I go back and forth between Alien and Aliens with which one I like more. And I agree, the latter has an amazing number of quotable lines.

Speaking of Hudson, about six or seven years ago I went to a screening of A Simple Plan with Bill Paxton in attendance at Roger Ebert's film festival in Champaign, Illinois. Anyways, after the screening Paxton came on the stage to talk about Raimi's film and his career in general. A couple people asked him about Aliens and like the good trooper he is he happily said several of his best lines as Hudson ("That's it man, game over man, game over!" "Why didn't you put her in charge!" "How do I get out of this chickenshit outfit?"). He had the whole crowd in stitches.

[Highway 61]

Roger, that Paxton Q&A sounds great. I remember him being quite funny on the Aliens commentary as well. He always struck me as an overlooked talent. And his directorial effort, Frailty, was an impressive debut. I'm not into Big Love, however. Ugh. Oh, and it's good to hear that there's another Alien 3 fan out there. Despite its shortcomings, there's so much to admire: Weaver's best turn as Ripley, Goldenthal's beautiful score, and for once I found Fincher's MTV style appropriate.

Fletch, I had no idea the BFI published a volume on The Thing. I'll definitely pick it up. Thanks.

[denti alligator]

Maybe this us all just a pent up expression of my closest love for Alien 3

I guess there's two of us then! I've always liked Alien 3 and will defend it to my last day. In any event, I think even it's numerous detractors have to admit it's vastly better than Alien Resurrection.

I just watched Alien 3 and Resurrection for the first time this break and was pretty surprised at how much better both of these were than I had been led to believe. Alien 3 is very dark and has a pacing that I like. The colors--mostly grays and greens--were effectively used. Resurrection was a romp of a parody of the whole franchise. How could you not enjoy this. Still think the first is the best, though. Oh, and love The Thing, but it's no Alien.

[Polybius]

I go back and forth between Alien and Aliens with which one I like more. And I agree, the latter has an amazing number of quotable lines.

That's my situation, as well.

Speaking of Hudson, about six or seven years ago I went to a screening of A Simple Plan with Bill Paxton in attendance at Roger Ebert's film festival in Champaign, Illinois. Anyways, after the screening Paxton came on the stage to talk about Raimi's film and his career in general. A couple people asked him about Aliens and like the good trooper he is he happily said several of his best lines as Hudson ("That's it man, game over man, game over!" "Why didn't you put her in charge!" "How do I get out of this chickenshit outfit?"). He had the whole crowd in stitches.

My personal pick has always been "Well, that's just great!!" after the shuttle that's coming to pick them up on the surface crashes. The echoes are still reverberating when he sputers that out and the sheer dark inanity of it always kills me.

I'm on board the Alien³ bandwagon, too. It's inferior to the first two, but that's a damned high standard and judged on it's own, it's worthwhile. I love the sense of claustrophobia and I would probably watch Charles Dance and Charles Dutton play Chess.

[John Cope]

I love both Alien and The Thing and wouldn't want to have to choose between them. Such a choice would be pretty arbitrary as they both do what they each do respectively very well. I suppose if pushed I would say that I prefer Alien simply because I prefer the kinds of themes circling under its surface more than those addressed in the Carpenter picture.

As for the rest, I go back and watch the Alien cycle every couple of years and always enjoy it. Aliens is so astonishingly successful because it manages to provide great entertainment while actually expanding our understanding of the main character and advancing its own approach to the material--the kind of thing that sequels are supposed to do and almost never do.

Alien 3 is a great picture, though certainly flawed. Its flaws, however, feel like integral parts of its appeal. The recent "special edition", for instance, is much more successful at being coherent, though the anonymous frustration of the theatrical cut partially provided its alienating effect. Also, it's simply one of the most perverse films of its kind one can imagine. When watched back to back with Aliens (something Fincher must have considered) it does far more than stake out its own territory; it demolishes all the invested empathy by indicating the real fragility of Ripley's accomplishments, the transitory nature of her victory, if you will. Fincher sets all this in sharp relief against our familiarity with the rest of the series and the ending is more devastating for it.

Alien Resurrection is fascinating in its own right though also deeply problematic, albeit for different reasons. I admire its gonzo quality that sets it at such odds with the rest and that actively evokes the truly alien nature of the future in a way the original film sought to avoid. This approach complements the freak show nature of what is left of humanity by the bitter end--most specifically seen in the non-humanness of the clone and the android who coax our empathy. Still, this absurdist streak works against the film's achievement as a capper to the series proper. It works well enough on its own and I can see what was intended (the abortion metaphor never ceases to amaze me) but ultimately the distance from the tone of the rest is too much and it does not convince in that sense. The distress of the completely foreign comes through but tonal consistency does not. Without it it is hard to summon up the necessary identification. This was probably the point and I admire that (in its own way it's almost as perverse as the previous film) but it ultimately doesn't really work.

[flyonthewall2983]

Funny thing to consider about all four films in the Alien franchise, especially the last two, is that all four have great casts and all the directors went on to bigger success.

[Gordon]

You know something... I love Predator. Tremendous macho entertainment, a highly impressive alien and a terrific score. You must be a slack-jawed faggot if you don't like this film.

[Fletch F. Fletch]

That's for PS 2, right? I'm surprised it's a good game considering most video games based on movies usually are a waste of time. But then, I haven't really played video games heavily since the days of the Super Nintendo.

Actually, you can get the game for several different platforms. I have it for the xBox. And you're right, most video games based on movies are crap. Alto, in recent years there has also been The Warriors and The Godfather games which are quite good and definitely capture the spirit of the movies that they are based on.

Oh I'm not trying to knock Aliens or Cameron, it's just that the word 'subtle' isn't in his dictionary.

Heh. This is true. Altho, his battering ram approach works well in Aliens.

Speaking of Hudson, about six or seven years ago I went to a screening of A Simple Plan with Bill Paxton in attendance at Roger Ebert's film festival in Champaign, Illinois. Anyways, after the screening Paxton came on the stage to talk about Raimi's film and his career in general. A couple people asked him about Aliens and like the good trooper he is he happily said several of his best lines as Hudson ("That's it man, game over man, game over!" "Why didn't you put her in charge!" "How do I get out of this chickenshit outfit?"). He had the whole crowd in stitches.

That's awesome. I've always liked Bill Paxton ever since his memorable cameo in Streets of Fire (getting slugged off a stage by Willem Dafoe and then later punched unconscious by Amy Madigan... hah!) on to his best performance as Severin in Near Dark ("Shitkicker heaven!"). Hell, he was a blast in crap like Weird Science.

You know something... I love Predator. Tremendous macho entertainment, a highly impressive alien and a terrific score. You must be a slack-jawed faggot if you don't like this film.

"I ain't got time to bleed."

Agreed, I love this film too. I always remember seeing it back in the day and remarking how it was the only Schwarzenegger film where I actually thought that his character might die.

[exte]

Anyone catch the predator spoof with Stone Phillips on youtube? Hilarious!

[brownbunny]

i think the thing is the victor here, if only for the line about the swedes (they're norwegian, mac)

[Fletch F. Fletch]

i think the thing is the victor here, if only for the line about the swedes (they're norwegian, mac)

That and MacReady's retort to the computer when it beats him in chess. Heh. Yeah, there are a lot of quotable bits of dialogue in this movie like in a lot of Carpenter's other films, most notably Escape from NY and Big Trouble in Little China (I used to know all the dialogue from that one).

[brownbunny]

i still seem to have an endless fixation on "they live." i even began a website some years ago - now defunct - in its honor. i think roddy piper's dialogue is the most quotable of any carpenter film, a particular favorite being "you know, your head looks like it fell off the cheese truck back in 1957," as well as "i put these glasses on she looks like a regular person...take em off...formaldehyde face!"

let us not overlook christine, either, "can't polish a turd."

[Robotron]

I've always felt irritation for Alien in the form of the "split-up syndrome" that permeates the movie and keeps the characters unsympathetic throughout. The Thing is one of the few slasher films, that I've seen anyway, that attempted to provide a passable reason as to why the characters would be willing to leave each other while under such an intense assault from a monster (and strangely enough, Roger Ebert criticized The Thing for that very syndrome and later put Alien on his great movies list).