Carney-vàle!

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matrixschmatrix
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Re: Carney-vàle!

#101 Post by matrixschmatrix » Fri Mar 15, 2013 12:11 am

I'm find his claim that he has ironclad proof that the reels were gifted, were worthless in the first place, and were otherwise going to be trashed pretty dubious- like, why would he bother writing a million word screed about how right he is, rather than just posting the relevant documentation and making Rapaport look like an idiot?

Perkins Cobb
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Re: Carney-vàle!

#102 Post by Perkins Cobb » Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:48 pm

"I appreciate Carney’s concern in trying to exhonorate [sic] himself, even though I couldn’t make it through the letter, despite the fact that it’s mostly about me." Mark Rappaport responds. Also, Jon Jost chimes in, Ben Safdie sticks up for Carney, and blah blah blah, and why is this playing out on Mubi? Good grief.

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dustybooks
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Re: Carney-vàle!

#103 Post by dustybooks » Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:58 pm

None of this is funny, I know, but I am greatly amused by the suggestion someone makes there of a "moderated Mubi trial."

Perkins Cobb
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Re: Carney-vàle!

#104 Post by Perkins Cobb » Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:20 am

Mubi is hereby found guilty.

lefeufollet
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Re: Carney-vàle!

#105 Post by lefeufollet » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:04 pm


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david hare
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Re: Carney-vàle!

#106 Post by david hare » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:58 pm

Perjurer. Liar. Thief. Blackmailer. Psychopath.

So many names, so little time.

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matrixschmatrix
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Re: Carney-vàle!

#107 Post by matrixschmatrix » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:21 pm

Rappaport certainly seems to have better foundation for whatever terms he uses- assuming he's not actually fabricating documents, it certainly does appear that Carney dramatically changed his story from one to the other. Though admittedly I'm inclined to read Rappaport's side more favorably, since Carney seems like such an asshole.

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david hare
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Re: Carney-vàle!

#108 Post by david hare » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:41 pm

Carney doesn't seem an asshole, he IS an asshole.
At the very worst Rappaport was incredibly naive, even stupid to have trusted the schtick he got from Carney in the first place. For that he is being asked to pay over 50 grand in blackmail money. It's that simple.

And still this prick has tenure at BU!! Doesn't literal theft of intellectual and physical property exceed even Plagiarism which is reputedly the cardinal sin and kiss of death for any Academic appointment.

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whaleallright
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Re: Carney-vàle!

#109 Post by whaleallright » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:48 pm

I think we should all be able to agree that Boston University violating their contract with Carney over accusations that have yet to be admitted or proven in open court would be cause for great concern. I have no love for Carney at all, and I'm inclined not to believe his version of events, but I'm neither an arbitrator nor a member of a jury nor a judge.

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david hare
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Re: Carney-vàle!

#110 Post by david hare » Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:00 pm

When these contretemps occur within Universities and claims against staff, the usual procedure was for someone to file a grievance and the institution to stand the accused person down. Carney has so much history over decades in this area irt's impossible not to believe he's completely "protected" by the University Board or the Chancellor's office.
But of course Universities in the US and here and even the UK are no longer the bastions of ethics or god forbid moral rectitude they once were, or tried to be. They are a reflection of the broader society. I am far too old for the current woeful state of ethics in civil society/the body politic but it seems to me cujrrent Academic morality is entirely based on the holy fucking dollar. The US under BUsh and now Obama has simply become a Police State masquerading as a democracy and a subservient client of the Military, the Gigantic Business and Bomb Corporation, Israel's territorial apartheid and Wall Street. Nothing else matters. Ask Bradley Manning. Or Mark Rappaport.

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whaleallright
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Re: Carney-vàle!

#111 Post by whaleallright » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:31 pm

The contretemps did not occur "within" the University. A third party has made accusations against Carney. He took Carney to court but abandoned that effort (for understandable reasons) before it could be resolved in his favor. There is as yet no reason why Boston University should take action to abrogate their contract with Carney, at least no reason that has been produced during this controversy. I should hope that if somewhat sought to influence your employer to fire you, you could expect due process at the very least. Once again, I say this as someone who thinks Carney has done more harm than good as a film scholar.

The rest of your post does not merit a response.

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Mr Sausage
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Re: Carney-vàle!

#112 Post by Mr Sausage » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:38 pm

jonah.77 wrote:Once again, I say this as someone who thinks Carney has done more harm than good as a film scholar.
I'm not really up on Carney's actual scholarly work. Would you mind expanding?

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david hare
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Re: Carney-vàle!

#113 Post by david hare » Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:01 pm

jonah.77 wrote:The rest of your post does not merit a response.
I wasn't asking you for one.

Sausage he boasts of never having seen Citizen Kane and one of his central platforms is to "hate Hollywood."

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Mr Sausage
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Re: Carney-vàle!

#114 Post by Mr Sausage » Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:07 pm

david hare wrote:
jonah.77 wrote:The rest of your post does not merit a response.
Sausage he boasts of never having seen Citizen Kane and one of his central platforms is to "hate Hollywood."
Really? I remember reading some tirade against that movie's "fakeness" on the one brief scan I made of his website years ago.

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whaleallright
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Re: Carney-vàle!

#115 Post by whaleallright » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:30 am

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Last edited by whaleallright on Mon May 27, 2013 6:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Michael Kerpan
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Re: Carney-vàle!

#116 Post by Michael Kerpan » Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:29 pm

jonah.77 wrote: Frankly, folks on both sides of this debate are behaving like children.
Perhaps, but denying someone access to their own work (for quite a long time now) is pretty seriously problematic. I don't think one treat the two sides as equally culpable.

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matrixschmatrix
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Re: Carney-vàle!

#117 Post by matrixschmatrix » Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:14 pm

jonah.77 wrote:That said, I think he deserves due process like anyone else caught in a controversy that is, of now, just volleys of hearsay. If Jost and Rappaport did indeed try to get him fired, that's contemptible.
I don't think there's any reason to believe that's the case. The topic came up because david hare suggested that this situation might constitute grounds for breaking tenure, not because any of the concerned parties mentioned it. I honestly don't see any reason to believe Rappaport's done anything wrong, here.

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Gregory
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Re: Carney-vàle!

#118 Post by Gregory » Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:48 pm

jonah.77 wrote:Frankly, folks on both sides of this debate are behaving like children.
On behalf of a couple of billion children, I'd like to say that comparing them to Ray Carney is unwarranted and unfair.

onedimension
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Re: Carney-vàle!

#119 Post by onedimension » Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:37 pm

I'm not big on Carney's work now, although I was a fan as, I guess, a teenager- age 18 or 19, read his website publications and took a lot of his film recommendations (most of them good, to his credit). But now what I remember of his site- indulgent interviews that feel like Carney wrote the questions, too, simplistic anti-Hollywood screeds (he had one 'heroic' anecdote about yelling at a secretary who called wanting him to prepare copy or something for the Academy Awards), and a cult of personality sprung up through his fan letters- he doesn't strike me as the same kind of Truth-Telling Outsider..

That said, whatever his biases and personal tendencies, and however melodramatically he and Jost/Rappaport/etc. have behaved, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me to envision an alternative version of events that's not as simple as Carney-the-deceiver victimizing the naive filmmaker..

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Mr Sausage
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Re: Carney-vàle!

#120 Post by Mr Sausage » Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:10 pm

onedimension wrote:That said, whatever his biases and personal tendencies, and however melodramatically he and Jost/Rappaport/etc. have behaved, it doesn't seem unreasonable to me to envision an alternative version of events that's not as simple as Carney-the-deceiver victimizing the naive filmmaker.
Consistency tells you a lot. Whose account has remained consistent? Jost/Rappaport have been very consistent with each one of their charges. Ray Carney, on the other hand, has provided nothing but shifty, hazy, changing accounts of what happened. I know immediately who to trust, and it's not the person who alters their story bit by bit to keep consistent with the facts as they come out..

albucat
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Re: Carney-vàle!

#121 Post by albucat » Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:29 pm

If Jost and Rappaport did indeed try to get him fired, that's contemptible. Frankly, folks on both sides of this debate are behaving like children.
I'm not really sure what people think Jost and Rappaport and their many supporter should do to actually get the films back at this point. Pretend that this isn't happening? Not become increasingly angry as time goes by and the films in Carney's hands? Not try to get the public on their side? Getting Carney fired seems like a last resort... but what other recourse do they eventually have? I put myself in Rappaport's place and, frankly, I'd do whatever I could at this point in the insanity to get my materials back. It's not like this is a situation that seems to be resolving itself, and the idea that this should be emotionless seems pretty ridiculous to me.

I'm also not very clear on how losing a job, when you could easily find employment at many other universities (as someone of Carney's stature, both despite and perhaps because of his infamy, could do) is as bad as large-scale robbery and repeatedly lying to a "friend." I guess I also don't understand how a person could feign that both sides are equally in the right here, so I'm not going to pretend I'm unbiased here.

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whaleallright
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Re: Carney-vàle!

#122 Post by whaleallright » Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:30 am

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Last edited by whaleallright on Mon May 27, 2013 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Perkins Cobb
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Re: Carney-vàle!

#123 Post by Perkins Cobb » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:16 pm

jonah.77 wrote:Then there's the problem of him having cobbled together his Cassavetes on Cassavetes from quotes unsourced, taken out of context, mashed together misleadingly, etc.
Are there any good sources that go into detail on this? (Does Marshall Fine's book challenge Carney's work directly?) I'll have to do some writing about Cassavetes soon and it'd help to have a map for the Carney minefield.

Yet another flaw in Carney's methodology is his creation of his own Cassavetes canon (as if the filmography weren't small enough to begin with), out of which he casts anything that smacks of commercial compromise. Arguably that makes sense with Big Trouble but it's problematic when it comes to Cassavetes's two studio films from the early 60s and the TV episodes he directed, all of which are really interesting. A case could be made that Too Late Blues is a better film than Minnie and Moskowitz or Opening Night, but I think Carney's marginalization of that early work has encouraged other critics to neglect it.

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The Elegant Dandy Fop
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Re: Carney-vàle!

#124 Post by The Elegant Dandy Fop » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:58 pm

Perkins Cobb wrote:Yet another flaw in Carney's methodology is his creation of his own Cassavetes canon (as if the filmography weren't small enough to begin with), out of which he casts anything that smacks of commercial compromise. Arguably that makes sense with Big Trouble but it's problematic when it comes to Cassavetes's two studio films from the early 60s and the TV episodes he directed, all of which are really interesting. A case could be made that Too Late Blues is a better film than Minnie and Moskowitz or Opening Night, but I think Carney's marginalization of that early work has encouraged other critics to neglect it.
Cassavetes on Cassavetes actually speaks a great deal on Too Late Blues and A Child is Waiting and Carney speaks very positively about the Cassavetes directed episodes of Johnny Staccato. No matter where you're coming from, in terms of personal expression, freedom and the Cassavetes style of filmmaking, you can't really compare Too Late Blues (a compromised, but very good studio picture) with Minnie and Moskowitz and Opening Night (two masterpieces). If it's ignored, blame Cassavetes himself for speaking loudly throughout his career about how he tried playing the game in a Hollywood studio and was burned and jaded from the whole situation.

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gcgiles1dollarbin
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Re: Carney-vàle!

#125 Post by gcgiles1dollarbin » Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:10 pm

Jonah.77 wrote:That said, I think he deserves due process like anyone else caught in a controversy that is, of now, just volleys of hearsay.
Jost is taking this fight to the web and attempting to endanger Carney's academic reputation in part because of the former's doubts that the courts would find in favor of Rappaport, for a few reasons: 1) There was no written agreement at the outset; 2) the materials have been in Carney's possession for a few years without contest; and 3) Rappaport likely does not have the money to support a convincing lawsuit. It's Jost's belief (and mine, frankly) that "due process" will do nothing to restore those materials to Rappaport. You could say that Rappaport should be punished for his naiveté in lending his life's work without a document specifying the status of the transaction, or you could say that Carney should be punished for exploiting these lapses, knowing cynically that he has a stronger position in court. I agree with you that, aside from what Rappaport and Carney have chosen to publicize on the web, this is all hearsay, that we can only speculate, and that speculation is dangerous recourse, but I have equal doubts that due process will serve Rappaport without driving him deeper and deeper into debt. It shouldn't satisfy our consciences that this matter will wind up in the judicial system.

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