Holocaust Films

[denti alligator]

Help me jog my memory as to good films that attempt to deal with the Shoah.

I think back and can come up with few that do it in a respectful but challenging way. Either the film falls into cliches, propounds a politics that is problematic, or offensively seeks to overwhelm the viewer in Hollywood-y excess.

Shoah is one of the few that comes to mind. Others? To avoid making this a "list" thread, please give the films' strengths and weaknesses.

EDIT: And Night and Fog, which may still be the best. (Though I'm not looking just for documentaries.)

[domino harvey]

God on Trial, which you can read my thoughts on here

[Svevan]

I have a love-hate relationship with The Grey Zone: on the one hand, it shows aspects of the Holocaust that are rarely depicted (the collaborators, if you can call them that), and at least attempts to mine the moral ambiguities inherent with living inside an oppressive society; quite different from Schindler's List's goodguys-badguys dichotomy. On the other hand, I'm not sure The Grey Zone's goals are attainable: Night and Fog totally changed my perspective on what historical films are capable of, especially in regards to real historical human evil. The Grey Zone is closer to Spielberg's attempt than Resnais's, in that it shocks you with terrible images, giving you the illusion of understanding. I think Resnais, Cayrol, and Marker are arguing in their film that true understanding of this event is not really possible, especially if mediated by simple images (similar point made in Hiroshima Mon Amour).

[triodelover]

Help me jog my memory as to good films that attempt to deal with the Shoah.

Kapo comes to mind. Not focusing directly on the camps but dealing more with French collaboration and the deportation of the Jews is Robert Guédiguian's L'armée du crime. In a similar vein would be Louis Malle's Lacombe Lucien. Polanski's Pianista, too.

But I guess I should ask precisely what you are looking for when you say "deal with."

[colinr0380]

Fragments of Isabella, based on the memoir by Isabella Leitner was quite a powerful film, taking a Talking Heads approach to the material without feeling the need to open the material out cinematically and try to recreate the events described (the last time the BBC screened Shoah, they showed this film too).

And the film version of the play Bent.

[accatone]

The terminus Holocaust is ambiguous if not false. Giorgio Agamben even calls so'ah an euphemism and sticks to the destruction of the european jews (Hilberg…). It is not just a question of denotation(?) in literal terms but in visual as well (again highly recommended http://www.amazon.com/Images-Spite-All- ... 346&sr=8-3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ). The ability to "show something" through images is what interests me most in arts/media and for this forum, cinema. When it comes to something that is thought of as inexplicable, indescribable etc. (thats why i started my post with the "problem" of giving "whats happend" a proper name and even after reading most of Primo Levi, Filip Müller etcetera its not getting any easier) it gets difficult. The criticism regarding "reconstructing" the camps for fictional purpose (Schindlers List) is commonly known and in my opinon valid (same goes for narrative purpose in films like La Vita è bella). At least in Germany i am facing this problem with so called Television Docu-Fiction blockbusters that serve history in palatable portions that make the audience swallow the "past" like a cheeseburger. Blahh…to come back to the initial question, i can not think of a "good Holocaust" film. In fact as with most historical cesura(s) its important to note all the little things that happen around the incident to get a broad and versatile picture of what happend. Setting historical/cinematical images in juxtapositions like JLG could be (is, imo) a step forward…

[denti alligator]

I don't know what I'm looking for. And I'm partly asking for someone else.

Perhaps I'm looking for a film that raises all the hard questions, without settling for easy solutions.
How to even talk about the Holocaust is at issue here, how to represent it. If it's the attempted "destruction of European Jews," then we should ask why is this exactly such a "historical caesura." Is it because it nearly destroyed a people? To express why this is such a tragedy without evoking a notion of the "purity" of a race or the privilege of a people (echoes of Nazi ideology) is hard. As it well should be. The Holocaust has been used--in the most disturbing of ironies--to justify the crimes of Israel. That's one extreme. The other extreme is a denial that it ever happened, which is always tied up with deep-seated Antisemitism.

What does it mean to "never forget"? Is this a question of Judaism of a humanity? (Sorry, I realize I'm not being very clear.)

[domino harvey]

How to even talk about the Holocaust is at issue here, how to represent it.

I assume you teach college, but nevertheless this might be of interest

[triodelover]

I don't know what I'm looking for. And I'm partly asking for someone else.

Perhaps I'm looking for a film that raises all the hard questions, without settling for easy solutions.
How to even talk about the Holocaust is at issue here, how to represent it. If it's the attempted "destruction of European Jews," then we should ask why is this exactly such a "historical caesura." Is it because it nearly destroyed a people? To express why this is such a tragedy without evoking a notion of the "purity" of a race or the privilege of a people (echoes of Nazi ideology) is hard. As it well should be. The Holocaust has been used--in the most disturbing of ironies--to justify the crimes of Israel. That's one extreme. The other extreme is a denial that it ever happened, which is always tied up with deep-seated Antisemitism.

What does it mean to "never forget"? Is this a question of Judaism of a humanity? (Sorry, I realize I'm not being very clear.)

I hardly see how one might term what happened between 1933 and 1945 a caesura. The history of anti-Jewish pogroms in Europe is a long and disturbing one. It wasn't a "break in the flow". Rather it was a bizarre and horrific amplification of what had always been there.

I would agree that we are still trying to find a language for discussing and understanding - to the degree that such is possible - the Holocaust. I'm not sure that cinema has ever quite found that language but I think it comes closest when it attempts to set the enormity of the crime in the context of the individual, rather than a broad historical panoply. It's not a film, but I think Martin Gilbert's The Holocaust: A History of the Jews of Europe During the Second World War did that. I found it so emotionally draining because of the seemingly endless recitation of individual horror stories that I could only manage 20 to 30 pages at a sitting.

[accatone]

If it's the attempted "destruction of European Jews," then we should ask why is this exactly such a "historical caesura."

It is unquestionable a cesura for the obvious reasons and regarding

I don't know what I'm looking for. And I'm partly asking for someone else.

i can only say what and why i have been looking for that topic. First of all this happend (and the war in general) where i grew up. Of course i do not feel guilty for what happend (because i was not involved) but living in a big german city the debris of the war is omnipresent (not just architectural). My good old Dad was fortunate (in fact he was just half a year too young!) to not attend the war but my granddad was. He was with the Wehrmacht and, according to my father, responsible for the "prisinors" at the Ostfront…further investigations just got me my dads answer like "what should he have done?" and a deprecating hand signal…
There is this issue of "humility(?)" here in germany which i do not want to confirm - its not humility but the possibility, not to "know", but to at least be able to understand what happend and what can happen (in differnt ways) again. Being myself intellectual minded (almost a swear word in Germany) its a responsibility.

[accatone]

I hardly see how one might term what happened between 1933 and 1945 a caesura. The history of anti-Jewish pogroms in Europe is a long and disturbing one. It wasn't a "break in the flow". Rather it was a bizarre and horrific amplification of what had always been there.

I hardly see anyone who would not call the destruction of the european jews as a cesura. Saying that this was just a logical consequence of european antisemitism (Luther etcetera…) is grotesque (Even though Raul Hilberg describes it this way in Shoa on a side note - which does not resemble his magnus opus). Regardless of the tradition of antisemitism (which of course has a long history) there is a huge difference between "local antisemite gossip" (still common to my parents generation) and the trains that left to Sobibor/Treblinka/Auschwitz.

[triodelover]

I hardly see how one might term what happened between 1933 and 1945 a caesura. The history of anti-Jewish pogroms in Europe is a long and disturbing one. It wasn't a "break in the flow". Rather it was a bizarre and horrific amplification of what had always been there.

I hardly see anyone who would not call the destruction of the european jews as a cesura. Saying that this was just a logical consequence of european antisemitism (Luther etcetera…) is grotesque (Even though Raul Hilberg describes it this way in Shoa on a side note - which does not resemble his magnus opus). Regardless of the tradition of antisemitism (which of course has a long history) there is a huge difference between "local antisemite gossip" (still common to my parents generation) and the trains that left to Sobibor/Treblinka/Auschwitz.

First, I'm not sure how you are defining caesura. Merriam-Webster offers:

Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural cae·suras or cae·su·rae \-ˈzyu̇r-(ˌ)ē, -ˈzhu̇r-\
Etymology: Late Latin, from Latin, act of cutting, from caedere to cut
Date: 1556

1 in modern prosody : a usually rhetorical break in the flow of sound in the middle of a line of verse
2 Greek & Latin prosody : a break in the flow of sound in a verse caused by the ending of a word within a foot
3 : break, interruption
4 : a pause marking a rhythmic point of division in a melody

I assume we're going with (3). So no, I don't see it as a break, since physical violence and lynchings of Jews existed prior to the Holocaust. Nor do I see it as a "logical consequence" and I can't see how you translate "a bizarre and horrific amplification" as such. While violence against Jews was not new, the organized application of the fruits of the Industrial Revolution to genocide was. I find it interesting that you reduce centuries of pogroms to "local antisemitic gossip". How innocuous that sounds.

[Jean-Luc Garbo]

Denti, try this book for some great suggestions and discussion of the films you're seeking. I have a copy and it's a great resource.

[zedz]

Getting back to films about the Holocaust, I've got a long list of ones I loathe with a passion, but very few that I find useful or enlightening. Top of that list is Peter Cohen's The Architecture of Doom, which argues for and documents Hitler's aesthetic rationale for the 'Final Solution'. It's somewhat oblique in its approach to all that murder, but it's nevertheless chilling, and since one of the great difficulties of the topic is how it can possibly be represented, I don't think it's any coincidence that the most successful films on the subject (e.g. Night and Fog, Shoah) take the oblique route. Cohen's 'prequel' Homo Sapiens 1900 provides a crucial reminder that the precepts, prejudices and principles that underpinned the Holocaust were anything but a localised, German abberation.

In terms of fiction films, there are ones I like as films, such as Munk's Passenger, but I'm not sure that they actually bring anything new to the table in terms of understanding or analysing the historical events they dramatise. Not trivialising them is about the best I can hope for.

[accatone]

Mr Triodelover, thank you for your "reseach" - but i am not an idiot!
It would be nice if you could show some respect for non-english speakers and non Merriam-Webster readers (i.e. it could well be true that the german Zäsur, in the sense of history research, has a differnt emphasis than your Merriam Webster - so no need to copy & paste american english translations - thank you).

While violence against Jews was not new, the organized application of the fruits of the Industrial Revolution to genocide was.

What you call "fruits if the industrial revolution" or "a bizarre horrific amplification" qualifys as a cesura for me. The disability to describe the destruction, i.e. fruits of industrial revolution/bizarre/horrific amplification, shows a little bit of the weight of this historic moment - break - Zäsur.

I find it interesting that you reduce centuries of pogroms to "local antisemitic gossip". How innocuous that sounds.

It may sound "innocous" - but this is the foundation for what/may follow(s) (the cesura is still there!). Just think of racism on schoolyards, bars etcetera - it might be different in the country you live, i do not know…. I am not sure were you are coming from or where you want to get this to? Are you erudite on this topic? What do you know about antisemitism in Europe besides pogroms? If you can add something substential this could be elaborated a little more.

[rohmerin]

New French succesfull film, La rafle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4blvYr8jkY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[triodelover]

Mr Triodelover, thank you for your "reseach" - but i am not an idiot!
It would be nice if you could show some respect for non-english speakers and non Merriam-Webster readers (i.e. it could well be true that the german Zäsur, in the sense of history research, has a differnt emphasis than your Merriam Webster - so no need to copy & paste american english translations - thank you).

I'm sorry if it came across as an insult. I didn't mean it to be. I was simply trying to establish if we were working from a common meaning of the word. Since English is my native tongue, I obviously went there first. However, my Cassell's German Dictionary gives Zäsur the English meaning "caesura". So we're either going in cirlces or I'm failing to understand the nuances in your use of the word. Please help.

While violence against Jews was not new, the organized application of the fruits of the Industrial Revolution to genocide was.

What you call "fruits if the industrial revolution" or "a bizarre horrific amplification" qualifys as a cesura for me.

Fair enough.

The disability to describe the destruction, i.e. fruits of industrial revolution/bizarre/horrific amplification, shows a little bit of the weight of this historic moment - break - Zäsur.

I think the problem is semantic. I tend to think of the word "break" as a hiatus, or a stoppage of something existing on a continuum. In that sense, the Holocaust is not - to me - a break. Anti-semitism existed (and exists) on a continuum and the Holocaust is a unique (which is what I gather you mean when you say "break") expression of that in that it was orders of magnitude more horrific than any expression of anti-Semitism that had preceded it.

I find it interesting that you reduce centuries of pogroms to "local antisemitic gossip". How innocuous that sounds.

It may sound "innocous" - but this is the foundation for what/may follow(s) (the cesura is still there!).

On this we are in agreement (and I think in agreement on everything else but we are stumbling over the choice of words). I'm pretty sure I said as much - or at least tried to.

Just think of racism on schoolyards, bars etcetera - it might be different in the country you live, i do not know…. I am not sure were you are coming from or where you want to get this to? Are you erudite on this topic? What do you know about antisemitism in Europe besides pogroms? If you can add something substential this could be elaborated a little more.

I am by no means an expert, just an interested student of history. All this started because we were attempting to find a language to discuss these events. Apparently you and I found different words to convey what seem to be remarkably similar feelings. In doing so, I've angered you and again I apologize. Best we go back to the original topic, I think.

[accatone]

I think the problem is semantic. I tend to think of the word "break" as a hiatus, or a stoppage of something existing on a continuum.

Yes - and maybe i should have made my point clearer in the first place - apologizes!! Zäsur/caesura (at least in Germany) in historical terms does not "just" mean a "break" or stoppage of something (in music it does…) but more a "turning point" upon a new way of thought is required. In this way i would call for example 9/11 a Zäsur as well. For the USA it was (i am no expert on this) a direct attack "into" the home country (for the first time) and in terroristical terms i.e. the chain of action it was new and unique too. So with this experience people had to re-think about "homeland security" on the one hand and terroristical danger/attacks on the other hand. Of course not everything new and unique causes a Zäsur - it is subjective on a high level. But coming back to the original topic about "good" Holocaust films (destruction of the european jews) i think it is indeed worthwhile to discuss the definition etcetera of this. This discussion runs alongside the question of a visual illustration / Film and is therefor quite valid i think.

Sorry again for my harsh reaction triodelover!

[triodelover]

I think the problem is semantic. I tend to think of the word "break" as a hiatus, or a stoppage of something existing on a continuum.

Yes - and maybe i should have made my point clearer in the first place - apologizes!! Zäsur/caesura (at least in Germany) in historical terms does not "just" mean a "break" or stoppage of something (in music it does…) but more a "turning point" upon a new way of thought is required.

Thank you. I see now and you're quite right in your interpretation. I'm afraid my university German is a good distance back in the rear view mirror.

In this way i would call for example 9/11 a Zäsur as well. For the USA it was (i am no expert on this) a direct attack "into" the home country (for the first time) and in terroristical terms i.e. the chain of action it was new and unique too.So with this experience people had to re-think about "homeland security" on the one hand and terroristical danger/attacks on the other hand. Of course not everything new and unique causes a Zäsur - it is subjective on a high level.

Good analogy.

But coming back to the original topic about "good" Holocaust films (destruction of the european jews) i think it is indeed worthwhile to discuss the definition etcetera of this. This discussion runs alongside the question of a visual illustration / Film and is therefor quite valid i think.

Agreed that it's difficult to decide if a film handles a subject well without knowing ourselves how to talk about that subject in a way that brings common understanding.

Sorry again for my harsh reaction triodelover!

it's not a problem. It was very late last night here when I posted. On reflection, I can see how what I thought was an attempt to clarify could come across as condescending. It's the imperfect Internet after all. We're good.

[Erikht]

Oh, goodie. Peace and brotherly love all around.

[Cinephrenic]

The Pianist?

[MichaelB]

Jan Němec's Diamonds of the Night often gets mentioned in dispatches on Holocaust film, though it's primarily about the experiences of two teenage boys, offering little historical context until the very end (and even then, you need to know about the relationship between Czechs and Sudeten Germans to grasp what's going on).

Lajos Koltai's Fateless has some provocative ideas about Hungarian attitudes towards anti-Semitism and the Holocaust, not least its teenage protagonist's struggle to reconcile the widely-held notion that he's experienced unimaginable horror with the unpleasant but by no means unendurable reality.

Both films were sourced from novels by Auschwitz survivors.

[rohmerin]

It's attractive and strange the mix of atonement and communist propaganda in the subtext of the Eastern German film Naked among wolves.
I love Eastern European films too. May be you can try also Romeo, Juliet and darkness (Czech), or Agnieska Holland's Angry Harvest, Jakob the liar, the Wajda's films, etc

For Historical interest I've watched The eternal Jew and Jude Suss, and fuck, this Nazi propaganda justification of racial laws, Aryansim, hate, killing is disgusting and unbearable, but like most of propaganda, it works in all the cinematographical ways.