Speak No Evil (Christian Tafdrup, 2022)

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swo17
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Re: The Films of 2022

#1 Post by swo17 » Tue Aug 30, 2022 8:42 pm

zedz wrote:
Tue Aug 23, 2022 9:05 pm
Speak No Evil (Christian Tafdrup, 2022) – A horror movie that announces its genre early on by playing apocalyptically foreboding music over random scenes (a sunlit Tuscan holiday villa, for instance), but then withholding and withholding the actual horror as it dabbles in culture-clash cringe comedy for another hour or so. The disjunction gets funnier and the tension tenser the longer it’s stretched out, and by the time the other shoe drops you have a pretty good idea of what’s going to happen, but
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it’s much nastier than you suspect – which is always a nice surprise
Like a lot of horror movies, the plot only really works because certain characters behave stupidly or inexplicably at key points, or stuff just happens for no good reason.
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For instance, when the family escape, if Dad had just told Mum why they were escaping, they wouldn’t have been recaptured; and I still can’t understand why the door to the Shed of Doom was left open so Dad could discover The Horrible Truth.
This was the most delicious meal I've had in quite some time--thanks for the rec!
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While you're not wrong about the spoilered plot holes, I think they still speak to the film's thesis about how friends are evil* and you can never really be free of anyone until they're finished with you, because politeness dictates that we keep giving people "one last chance" until there are no more chances left to give. Arguably the "stupid behavior" was becoming friends in the first place--once that decision was made, the end was predetermined as whatever Patrick & Karin had in mind. Remember one of their last lines to Bjørn & Louise: "Why are you doing this to us?" "Because you let us." It might even be richer that Bjørn knew the big secret and didn't make more of an effort to ensure a successful escape, in the same way that the couple resignedly comply with the final request to disrobe and whatever comes next instead of fighting to the end for their lives. It's like, what's the point? If not this, they'll just get us some other way.

*Presumably there are occasional exceptions to this rule

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therewillbeblus
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Re: The Films of 2022

#2 Post by therewillbeblus » Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:31 pm

swo, where did you find it? The only copy I can find is on backchannels but without retail subs, though it's unclear how much of the film is in English

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swo17
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Re: The Films of 2022

#3 Post by swo17 » Tue Aug 30, 2022 9:37 pm

It's mostly in English but for the foreign parts I didn't notice any issues with the available subs

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therewillbeblus
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Re: The Films of 2022

#4 Post by therewillbeblus » Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:12 am

I liked it too, though I read the 'stupid' behavior as thematically relevant in a different sense
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While the setup seems to be milking the culture clash to expose both sides as problematic in the same way (i.e. close-minded antisocial personalities in conflict producing social horror), the meditation on social niceties in pitting bohemian vs pompously elitist family dynamics is a ruse. For while the Danes may be morally 'right', as the husband eventually professes, this is essentially nullified when they don't possess basic survival instincts which are subjugated by their social fears. They make a lot of stupid mistakes, almost entirely though non-action, stalling in freeze mode instead of fleeing or fighting- the worst possible option of reptilian response. Right or wrong, they are the weaker class. The "because you let me" line works in terms of social horror, but has a deeper and more disturbing subtext, which is that this is a film willing to engage with social darwinism.

The Dutch family may appear to be emotionally labile throughout the narrative, but this too turns out to be a hunting strategy rather than their true selves. In the end, they are not making an emotional decision, but a practical one: antisocial personalities reign (which reminds me of my last watch of The Parallax View in how that film implicitly suggests that we've evolved to a place where sociopaths have moved to the top of the food chain, and maybe even 'should' be there to enhance the kind of outcomes we see as ideologically valuable).

The Dane dad doesn't tell the mom about what he's seen partly because of fear- self-constructed barriers that stop tribe members from communicating even in crises- but they also haven't built or reinforced a trusted line of communication in order to default to collaboration. There's a sense that their marriage has been comprised of negatively reinforcing distancing and so there's an absence of skills to both independently engage with acute situations or collectively engage in problem-solving together. They don't possess even basic verbal skills, whereas the Dutch parents are communicating the entire film without ever saying a word to one another- their nonverbal communication is operating on a deeper intimate level, and they will be survivors for it. How fucked up is that.

I do wish the film ended differently. At first, the cut from the parents' deaths transitions onto what appears to be a utopia playground of families having organic, deserved fun, and for a moment I wondered if this was going to be a sick and brilliant twist: That these were the lost kids from the photos, so the Dutch parents are not actually killing the kids but bringing them to a 'better' place, 'saving' them from their parents who cannot take care of them. According to their warped survivalist rules, of course. I realize that we saw their other kid dead in a pool, but still, how insane would that have been? A Robin Hood gesture of delusional ethics that filtered kids back into families that have the capacities to survive animal threats. But then it seems like we're just going through the rotation again, back to a resort to find a new family- so Funny Games or any number of horror films where the bad guys win and start their scheme over, negating the nuance the final act's twist established. A waste of rich potential.

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swo17
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Re: Speak No Evil (Christian Tafdrup, 2022)

#5 Post by swo17 » Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:22 am

Your reading is probably better than mine, and I like your idea for an ending though it's also a bit outlandish, and it's not as though the film was inevitably heading in that direction only to chicken out at the last minute

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therewillbeblus
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Re: Speak No Evil (Christian Tafdrup, 2022)

#6 Post by therewillbeblus » Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:31 am

Oh I know, and the film’s most horrifying moment
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(the tongue amputation)
would have to be cut in order for it to successfully work, since that’s not exactly abiding by the codes of reinforcing survivalism. Still, my mind went there and it seemed to fit the theme, so I felt like sharing

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swo17
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Re: Speak No Evil (Christian Tafdrup, 2022)

#7 Post by swo17 » Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:40 am

Well it was a nice thought, and perhaps it could still work with
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the tongue amputation if Patrick & Karin saw themselves as saviors of children rescuing them from both weak-willed parents and the temptation to ever speak evil, but then going so far as to actually kill some of them off would seem to slightly negate that theory

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therewillbeblus
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Re: Speak No Evil (Christian Tafdrup, 2022)

#8 Post by therewillbeblus » Wed Aug 31, 2022 11:09 am

Yeah, and fleshing out an extra irony with that added hypocrisy would probably be biting off too much-
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we'd need the hypothesis about killing the kids to be a lie in order for it to work, but since that's already so perversely interesting, it'd be trading a well-executed disturbing revelation for a risk at effectively doubling down in committing to the theme of entertaining the perspectives of these survivalists

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Matt
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Re: Speak No Evil (Christian Tafdrup, 2022)

#9 Post by Matt » Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:10 am

Bumping to mention that this is on Shudder now.
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I concur that the last couple of shots mar what is otherwise a fantastically bleak ending. Are all the happy, playful kids supposed to be in Heaven or something? But I otherwise admire the lack of explanation for motive and for how the whole scheme actually operates.

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The Curious Sofa
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Re: Speak No Evil (Christian Tafdrup, 2022)

#10 Post by The Curious Sofa » Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:44 am

It didn’t stick the landing 100% but otherwise this is the most effective horror film I‘ve seen all year. I can’t remember the last time a film made me feel this uncomfortable, the screws are tightened so slowly and for much of the film the many minor infractions of the Dutch hosts can be be rationalised as harmless. That’s why I didn’t think the Danish family behaved stupidly in a horror movie way, they are constantly checking themselves whether they are overreacting. The Danish father also clearly is drawn to the transgressive nature of his hosts.

There are some thematic similarities to the British All My Friends Hate Me, which I also liked. While that film merely flirted with horror, this one really goes for it.

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therewillbeblus
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Re: Speak No Evil (Christian Tafdrup, 2022)

#11 Post by therewillbeblus » Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:52 am

It’s less that they’re behaving “stupidly” and more that they’re ignoring survivalist gut instincts in favor of conditioned social influences that really don’t matter in a vacuum. I think we’re meant to be challenged in relating to them in this way, by exposing our own preoccupations with what others think of us or keeping up with social niceties as in opposition to the traits that allowed us to be a species to form a society in the first place. The ironies are well-placed and totally lost in the family of protagonists who have evolved into skill-less bait, and perversely represent the predominantly western urban/suburban audiences seeing the film

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zedz
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Re: Speak No Evil (Christian Tafdrup, 2022)

#12 Post by zedz » Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:35 pm

Matt wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:10 am
Bumping to mention that this is on Shudder now.
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I concur that the last couple of shots mar what is otherwise a fantastically bleak ending. Are all the happy, playful kids supposed to be in Heaven or something? But I otherwise admire the lack of explanation for motive and for how the whole scheme actually operates.
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There's a vague hint that there's a whole community of people in the vicinity doing basically the same thing (which makes zero sense, but whatever), because when their accomplice is introduced, they say that he babysits for everybody in the area. Of course, this might just be a reassuring lie.

Though I read that scene more as the 'happy family' vision that the killers are endlessly pursuing but never going to attain.

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zedz
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Re: Speak No Evil (Christian Tafdrup, 2022)

#13 Post by zedz » Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:48 pm

therewillbeblus wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:52 am
It’s less that they’re behaving “stupidly” and more that they’re ignoring survivalist gut instincts in favor of conditioned social influences that really don’t matter in a vacuum. I think we’re meant to be challenged in relating to them in this way, by exposing our own preoccupations with what others think of us or keeping up with social niceties as in opposition to the traits that allowed us to be a species to form a society in the first place. The ironies are well-placed and totally lost in the family of protagonists who have evolved into skill-less bait, and perversely represent the predominantly western urban/suburban audiences seeing the film
Though this explanation doesn't pertain to either of the plot issues I identified in my original post, which have nothing to do with the interaction between the families.

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Re: Speak No Evil (Christian Tafdrup, 2022)

#14 Post by therewillbeblus » Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:25 pm

I know, just responding to the other poster broadly on the fly, though I addressed the first issue you raised already in more detail above, which I think is thematically relevant to what I just pointed out. The influence of societal individualism has stunted opportunities for communication skills-building within the marriage; the husband clearly doesn't feel safe being open with his wife about his fears, and sadly doesn't possess the skills to do so in crucial moments of survivalism, where he's still weighed down by these handicapping norms and alienating patterns of interaction. This feels much less like a "plot issue" (as it would in its tired 'What are you doing?!' audience-led chastisement of principals in horror movies, of which this seems to be inverting) than directly related to the film's didactic messaging. What would normally be an issue in a horror movie is completely in sync with this film's meditation on the issues with our conditioned behavior as running counter to self-preservation. If the husband had communicated with his wife, the exhibition of themes wouldn't work nearly as well, and would actually propose something far more validating and less unsettling: That these people can resiliently access skills they otherwise are shown not to possess. What would be the point of the film then?

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Re: Speak No Evil (Christian Tafdrup, 2022)

#15 Post by The Curious Sofa » Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:36 pm

I thought it was odd that you replied to me as if I'd come up with the claim that the Danish family behave "stupidly" when I was disagreeing with that assessment and was obviously referring to the poster who brought it up. I got everything you are then explaining to me after that from the film, I mean yup, that's what the film is about.

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Re: Speak No Evil (Christian Tafdrup, 2022)

#16 Post by therewillbeblus » Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:31 pm

I responded to you because you seemed to be making a different point:
The Curious Sofa wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:44 am
I can’t remember the last time a film made me feel this uncomfortable, the screws are tightened so slowly and for much of the film the many minor infractions of the Dutch hosts can be be rationalised as harmless. That’s why I didn’t think the Danish family behaved stupidly in a horror movie way, they are constantly checking themselves whether they are overreacting. The Danish father also clearly is drawn to the transgressive nature of his hosts.
This reads to me like you're validating the main family's actions as understandable and relatable at face value, and that you had a surrogate experience in your identification with them while watching the film. I'm reading the film as getting distance from their subjectivity to perversely critique them for not having basic survivalist impulses, the screws tightening more from the horror at looking at our most fatalistically gridlocked behaviors of inertia in the mirror than from an involving horror narrative. I believe the audacity of the film is that it's disallowing us to engage in a complacent rationalization of the other family's actions as harmless, whereas you're identifying with that rationalization. Anyways, I'm just trying to engage in a discussion on a discussion board, not sure why that's odd. I don't think my responding post was unfairly charged or anything...

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zedz
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Re: Speak No Evil (Christian Tafdrup, 2022)

#17 Post by zedz » Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:42 pm

therewillbeblus wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:25 pm
If the husband had communicated with his wife, the exhibition of themes wouldn't work nearly as well, and would actually propose something far more validating and less unsettling: That these people can resiliently access skills they otherwise are shown not to possess.
I think your interpretation of the film's themes (which I agree with) is getting away from the film itself. Where in the film is there any indication that there's a communication problem between the husband and wife? They're constantly talking about how awkward things are, what's odd about their hosts, and whether or not they should leave. The only time they don't is when it's necessary for the plot to move in a particular direction.

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Re: Speak No Evil (Christian Tafdrup, 2022)

#18 Post by therewillbeblus » Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:59 pm

zedz wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:42 pm
therewillbeblus wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:25 pm
If the husband had communicated with his wife, the exhibition of themes wouldn't work nearly as well, and would actually propose something far more validating and less unsettling: That these people can resiliently access skills they otherwise are shown not to possess.
I think your interpretation of the film's themes (which I agree with) is getting away from the film itself. Where in the film is there any indication that there's a communication problem between the husband and wife? They're constantly talking about how awkward things are, what's odd about their hosts, and whether or not they should leave. The only time they don't is when it's necessary for the plot to move in a particular direction.
Hmm, I'm concerned I won't be able explain the difference well (I'm trying hard not to veer into professional splitting hairs on what constitutes healthy communication in terms of flexing relationship dynamics), but essentially I think there's a difference between blanket-definition of communication and intimate communication. Sure, they 'communicate' throughout the film insofar as they exchange words with one another, but these predominately occur in one-sided projections. The wife is upset about x and the husband receives her anxiously in agreement, or in gentle pushback about such-and-such, but there's no sense that they have the kind of relationship where they can challenge one another or speak about intimate vulnerabilities about themselves divorced from the triggering violation of norms and values they cling to.

I could vocally support my wife's exclamations of fury in order to keep the peace, and still not feel secure in admitting I'm afraid or that I cannot protect my family; one is fear-based and occupying an identified expected role in the relationship dynamic, whereas the other involves testing that role and risking one's partner being receptive to the shift in the family system. To me, the film is implicitly drawing a relationship based on ingrained roles that are safe and untested by each member, just as their takes on norms and expected behaviors from the outside world remain fixed. It's in that fixed status- whether that affects their own inability to plan or proactively support escape from threats, or their inability to effectively communicate when placed in a fight/flight/freeze situation and choose the latter and weakest option- that this communication breakdown aligns with the survivalist themes.

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zedz
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Re: Speak No Evil (Christian Tafdrup, 2022)

#19 Post by zedz » Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:11 pm

Seriously, I don't see how any of that relates to
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not telling your wife that the reason you're walking her up in the middle of the night and fleeing the place you've already tried to leave because she was freaked out by its weirdness is that you've discovered incontrovertible evidence that your hosts are serial killers who are going to murder you and mutilate your child.
It's in that fixed status- whether that affects their own inability to plan or proactively support escape from threats, or their inability to effectively communicate when placed in a fight/flight/freeze situation and choose the latter and weakest option- that this communication breakdown aligns with the survivalist themes.
Can you not see that this is a misreading of the climax of the film? Given the choice between fight / flight / freeze, he pointedly doesn't choose the latter option.

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Re: Speak No Evil (Christian Tafdrup, 2022)

#20 Post by therewillbeblus » Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:29 pm

It's admittedly frustrating, but still a successfully exaggerated demonstration of that fear-based conditioning not to disturb the peace. I don't think it's a conscious choice, which is part of the problem considering he's in a state of acute consciousness to the threats at hand in that moment, so that doesn't exactly gel. But I still think it works thematically considering the kind of communication that's been exerted so far has been in opposition to the 'other'd family's norms and never violating the assumed roles within the intrapersonal family system itself. In a marriage that seems to have a reinforced feedback channel of reactive maintenance for surface-level harmony, where the parents seem to technically communicate but not really engage on any deeper level, I 'get' (read: not support as rational) how this inaction to let the wife in on your impressions could be the gut reaction- if you don't dare test and thus don't trust what the response might be, or feel impotent yourself, scared and isolated. It's certainly more surrealistic than realistic, but I think it's metaphorically in sync to where the film is 'at' by this point, which is more geared at inducing themes than serving practical interventions like 10 Cloverfield Lane.
zedz wrote:
Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:11 pm
Can you not see that this is a misreading of the climax of the film? Given the choice between fight / flight / freeze, he pointedly doesn't choose the latter option.
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I think he freezes the entire film, flees briefly, and then freezes again when it counts and there's a chance to get away. Are we supposed to discount all the freezing that takes place and places him/them into a category of weakest links in social darwinism terms just because he flees for a second, and even then, fails to collaborate with his family nest to better prepare for possible hurdles in the getaway? Not sure what your point is here

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Re: Speak No Evil (Christian Tafdrup, 2022)

#21 Post by Finch » Sun Oct 09, 2022 7:30 pm

It was all the bunny's fault!

On a more serious note, while I won't forget those last 10 mins anytime soon, I much preferred the preceding 80 mins' slow-burn approach with creepy details sprinkled throughout the running time.

For me, the most disturbing moment was
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Bjoern discovering the photos on the shed's ceiling although you could argue the Dutch couple surely wouldn't be this negligent to leave the shed open. (I do love however how much more disturbing and tragic it makes the earlier moment in retrospect where Bjoern approaches the shed shortly after arrival and Abel opens his mouth and lets out a silent scream which I in hindsight took to have been an attempt by the boy to alert the Dane to what's inside the shed) I interpreted Bjoern not telling Luisa about the photos as him not wanting to upset her and their daughter and that he'd have told Luisa once they made it home safely.
I appreciated that
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the Dutch couple's (and by extension, the black man's) motivations were left unexplained
.

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Finch
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Re: Speak No Evil (Christian Tafdrup, 2022)

#22 Post by Finch » Sun Oct 09, 2022 7:34 pm

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I interpreted the slow motion shots of the happy family at the pool as flashing forward to the killers' next victims. We see the Dutch couple driving through Tuscany again thereafter. (Or at least I thought it was Tuscany.

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Re: Speak No Evil (Christian Tafdrup, 2022)

#23 Post by therewillbeblus » Sun Oct 09, 2022 7:38 pm

Yeah, I thought that was clear, or rather that one of them would be


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Re: Speak No Evil (Christian Tafdrup, 2022)

#25 Post by Finch » Mon Apr 17, 2023 9:02 pm

Watkins's Eden Lake was a nasty little thriller so choosing him to direct immediately makes me less sceptical and I like McAvoy. But, but, but it's a remake just the same and I really wish Blum would exclusively stick to original IP especially when he's also threatening us with another David Gordon Green horror movie that's probably going to force us all referring to it as Exorcist 2024 because they don't want to call it Exorcist 5.

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