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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 4:40 pm 
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Perkins Cobb wrote:
And that's at least three films that have confirmed cuts, ranging from the very minor all the way up to the catastrophic. So basically the whole Artificial Eye Angelopoulos project can be binned. Appalling.

That seems like a drastic over-reaction, and it's not as if there are persuasive alternatives.

From the descriptions Brad has so diligently and helpfully provided, it seems like these are authentic alternative edits, not lab accidents or instances of wilful butchery - unless you believe the folk at Artificial Eye went through the masters provided by Angelopoulos' producers maliciously and expensively trimming random seconds here and there just to mess with you. In most cases I don't think we even have enough evidence to conclude which of the variants would have been the director's preferred one - tiny trims like those described actually sound more like 'final touches' than 'early drafts'.

The Hunters is the only case where the variation is drastic and unfortunate, but even then, the nature of the cuts suggests that this too was an authentic alternative edit rather than a random botch. If only the full-length version were available elsewhere, this would be a valuable resource. As it is, at least we have a kind of work-around now that the 'deleted scenes' have been posted.

If cinephilia means a hysterical refusal to support releases of marginal films because they're less than perfect, then include me out. If you want to boycott the Artificial Eye sets out of misguided purism, that's your prerogative, but if you think this is going to encourage somebody else to put out a superior edition, you're crazy. It'll just be another nail in the coffin of challenging cinema getting released at all.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:15 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:39 pm
Location: UK
zedz wrote:
In most cases I don't think we even have enough evidence to conclude which of the variants would have been the director's preferred one - tiny trims like those described actually sound more like 'final touches' than 'early drafts'.

The missing material from VOYAGE TO CYTHERA is clearly the result of damage to the print or negative. Obviously the materials had been damaged since the film was shown on Channel 4 more than 20 years ago. The missing sections from THE HUNTERS seems to be the result of somebody other than Angelopoulos (who claimed never to watch his films after they had been finished) deciding to shorten the film.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:22 pm 
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Location: Aldershot, Hampshire, UK
There's a discrepancy between the DVD running time of Alexander the Great (199:35 or 208 mins without PAL speed-up) and the usually-given time of 210 minutes. I don't have another copy to compare the DVD checkdisc to, and I did guess that that two-minute gap may be a built-in intermission that was missing from the DVD. (I've found that the running time of many films of this sort of length includes intermissions.)

However, I will be interested to see what Brad finds.

I don't yet have checkdiscs for Volume 3, so will report on that when I do.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 6:29 pm 
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zedz wrote:
Perkins Cobb wrote:
And that's at least three films that have confirmed cuts, ranging from the very minor all the way up to the catastrophic. So basically the whole Artificial Eye Angelopoulos project can be binned. Appalling.

That seems like a drastic over-reaction

Drastic over-reaction is something of a Perkins Cobb trademark.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:13 am 

Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:49 pm
You can call it overreaction if you want, Michael, but I stand by my view that these releases are unacceptable (certainly in the case of Marketa; provisionally in the case of Angelopoulos, since we haven't had reports on all the films yet). If UK law prohibited an unexpurgated release of Marketa, it certainly did not compel Second Run to re-edit the film without disclosure of that fact -- something that Second Run has still, to my knowledge, never commented upon or defended.

As for Angelopoulos, I'm not clear: if Brad Stevens can get his hands on the original cuts of these films, why couldn't Artificial Eye? If there are no acceptable elements for them, at least this could be acknowledged, and the missing bits taken from lesser sources and included as extras? Yes, I'll probably end up buying the AE releases and supplementing them with the Youtube clips Brad is helpfully providing, or some other bootleg source, rather than staging some self-defeating one-man boycott. That doesn't mean I have to be happy about it, or that "appalling" is an overheated adjective.

As long as we're making this about me, Michael also neglected to link to my overreaction to the BFI's bungled release of The Devils ... to which I still say, do it right or don't bother. I may be disagreeable, but at least I'm consistent!


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:30 pm 
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Perkins Cobb wrote:
As long as we're making this about me, Michael also neglected to link to my overreaction to the BFI's bungled release of The Devils ... to which I still say, do it right or don't bother. I may be disagreeable, but at least I'm consistent!

I did in fact link to the thread, so anyone who was interested would have seen your followup post - but since you've gone on to describe the release as "bungled", it's pretty clear that you're still firmly in overreaction mode.

"Bungled" implies incompetence, but I fail to see how this charge can stick when the BFI has been absolutely clear from the start which version of the film is being included, and the contractual reasons for this. As I said in the thread, there are two legitimate (i.e. Michael Bradsell-edited and Ken Russell-supervised) cuts of the film, and the BFI is including one of them - which in itself is a major breakthrough, since that version has never had a home video release in any format in the correct aspect ratio before.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:06 pm 

Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:02 am
I´ve mailed questions to Trigon-Film (Switzerland) and Potemkine (France) about The Hunters at 143 mins.

Potemkine replied saying they had worked directly with A. who gave them restored film materials, and never mentioned an alternate cut. I sent them links to the YouTube clips in a second e-mail, plus a reference to A.´s own site, giving the run time as 165 mins. and clearly mentioning the execution scene. No answer yet.

Potemkine and Trigon-Film both assume the length difference is due to PAL speed-up.

Trigon-Film will release the six films in their box set separately.

BTW, on MUBI i found an interview with A. done c. 2006 by a Bulgarian journalist. Some info from the interview:
- A. says he has produced a DVD containing his filmography details and deleted scenes (no titles given)
- one hour was cut from Ulysses´ Gaze, for instance a journey down the Danube with a band of gypsies
- the third part of the trilogy was to be called The Return (or Dead Zone), set in the neutral zone between Greek and Turkish Cyprus, to star Keitel, Michelle Pfeiffer and Sean Penn


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:11 pm 
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Stefan Andersson wrote:
Potemkine and Trigon-Film both assume the length difference is due to PAL speed-up.

I'm sorry, but that's just brain-dead. A film would have to be nearly nine-and-a-half hours long to lose 23 minutes due to PAL speedup - just how different do they think the framerates of theatrical and PAL actually are?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:23 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:39 pm
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Stefan Andersson wrote:
plus a reference to A.´s own site, giving the run time as 165 mins. and clearly mentioning the execution scene. No answer yet.

Just to be clear, I should point out that the execution scene is present in the Artifical Eye DVD. What's missing is the continuation of this scene, with the executed partygoers standing up and walking back to the party.

By the way, the digitally obscured sex scene of the long version that I found online makes me suspect that the source of this transfer was a Japanese disc.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:35 am 

Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:31 am
Does anyone know if the Greek 'New Star' version of 'The Hunters' is the correct, full length? And, more important did it ever even exist? It's currently listed at videosun.gr, but as 'not available at this time'. They have the running time (as someone noted earlier) as 105 min, which makes no sense, so I assume it's just an error. Is the listing itself just a product of wishful thinking?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:03 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:39 pm
Location: UK
I just compared the Artificial Eye disc of ALEXANDER THE GREAT (which runs 199m 34s at 25 fps) with a transfer I found online (which runs 208m 12s at 24 fps). Like the longer transfer of THE HUNTERS, the latter version digitally obscures some nudity, which makes me suspect that it comes from the same (almost certainly Japanese) source.

The two versions are absolutely identical in terms of content. The AE transfer is sharper, brighter, and has a cleaner soundtrack, but the image is marred by frequent speckling that is not evident on the Japanese edition.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:42 pm 
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Last edited by JacquesQ on Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 2:56 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:02 am
BradStevens: I think you´re right about the Japanese source for ALEXANDER THE GREAT. From my laser disc-buying days I clearly remember a listing for ALEXANDER on Japanese LD. This would be around 1996.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 7:51 pm 

Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 1:39 pm
Location: UK
Two more missing scenes from THE HUNTERS are now on YouTube.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:49 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:02 am
I´ve twice e-mailed info about The Hunters at 143 mins. to info@theoangelopoulos.com (address given on A´s own site). No reply. Given A.´s fatal accident, answering e-mails is probably not a priority right now.

Has anybody ever e-mailed and gotten a reply from this address?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:15 pm 

Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:55 pm
Has anyone received replacement discs for the defective ones (from volume I) from Artificial Eye?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:47 pm 

Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 1:42 am
Location: US
Got mine last week.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 5:47 am 
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Location: Reading, UK
I've still not had mine. It said 10 days for delivery and we're nigh on 3 weeks now, so I'll send through another email at the end of the week if it hasn't turned up.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:24 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:02 am
Cinemateca Uruguaya ran The Hunters on Feb. 19 as part of a homage to Angelopoulos. It was listed at 168 mins. in programme notes, and, interestingly, it was shown in digital form, which makes me think it was really the 143 min. cut. More info in Spanish here. I don´t speak Spanish but I´ll try e-mailing them.

eBay sellers list the Oi kynigoi DVD (with the B&W cover) as a factory promo at 168 mins. I wonder why this 168 min. info continually pops up and is assumed to be correct. Doesn´t anybody check running times? At least Trigon-Film in Switzerland (who advertise The Hunters at 168 mins. on their site) e-mailed back and confirmed the 143 mins. running time.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:55 am 
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On the Artificial Eye Vol. 2 set; is the quality of Landscape in the Mist an improvement over the New Yorker edition? And finally are The Beekeeper and Landscape uncut?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 4:22 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:02 am
Discussion about the cuts to The Hunters can be found here:

http://mubi.com/topics/artificial-eye-t ... ion?page=5

Two posters, one with access to Greek Film Institute, is investigating the situation.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:51 am 

Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:37 pm
New releases from Kinokuniya(Japan)
Angelopoulos on Blu-ray (Japanese Region A, No English subs)
New, high-definition tranfer, supervised by director.

On April 28, 2012

Landscape in the Mist(Topio stin Omichli)(1988)
http://amazon.jp/dp/B007BYPYB8/

Eternity and a Day(Mia aioniothta kai mia mera)(1998)
http://amazon.jp/dp/B007BYPYC2/

On May 26, 2012

Voyage to Cythera(Taxidi stin Kythira)(1984)
http://amazon.jp/dp/B007BYLNY0/

The Weeping Meadow(To Livadi pou dakryzi) (2004)
http://amazon.jp/dp/B007BYLNYA/


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:18 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:02 am
I´ve e-mailed Greek Film Centre about the cuts to The Hunters. They referred me to Theo Angelopoulos´ own web site. I´ve already e-mailed them twice. No reply yet.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:36 am 
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Is the quality of Landscape in the Mist an improvement over the previous editions? Are there cuts to this film and The Beekeeper?


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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 7:50 am 

Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:02 am
A poster on the Angelopoulos thread on MUBI has commented on a 2004 Japanese DVD of The Hunters (Japanese subs only). According to him the DVD runs 172 mins. He checked it himself, didn´t just quote the DVD box. It´s maybe the DVD included in the box set here:
http://www.jpophelp.com/scripts/newsite ... showname=1

So now we have a Japanese DVD, plus the Chinese bootleg with (I assume) Chinese subs. I suppose the Japanese DVD might be identical to the Chinese. But the clips on YouTube lack subs, so maybe there are two sources.


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