The Wire

[denti alligator]

Zedz, what do you think of The Wire?

I'm only just now catching up with it, relying on the DVD releases, but so far it's great, with a density, nuance and intricate narrative structure rare for TV and rare for cinema.

You're in for a treat, zedz. It only gets better and then it reaches those highs that one thought one would never find on television, let alone in crime cinema.

[Belmondo]

It is impossible to overpraise this series. I've seen every episode and there are only two left.

(vague and non-specific spoilers on the final season)
The major sub-plot in the final season involves huge budget problems at The Baltimore Sun newspaper which mirror the huge budget problems at the police department. One of the reporters and one of our favorite series characters begin to stretch the truth in an effort to overcome these issues.

The reason I mention this is because, at first, it all seemed unlikely and a bit hard to believe, and I was afraid the series had run out of steam.
Not to worry, this series never fails to make you believe.

[jbeall]

The thing is, the newspaper story would have been a bit more unbelievable five or six years ago, but given how pathetic even the papers of record have become (Jayson Blair, anyone?), it's pretty believable.

If I'm not into the fifth season as much as the previous four, it's because I'm having a harder time liking any of the characters at the moment. Before, even Avon and Stringer had some kind of redeeming qualities. However, not only have the villains become nastier, but the game has so thoroughly corrupted the supposed good guys that they're becoming loathsome as well (although I suppose McNulty always had it in him).

That said, I still think the show is excellent; it's just that "The Game" has finally dragged nearly everybody down into the morass. It reminds me of the end of John Dos Passos' U.S.A. Trilogy, when the big money reigns supreme and the only way out is to leave the grid.

[Mise En Scene]

I'm only just now catching up with it, relying on the DVD releases, but so far it's great, with a density, nuance and intricate narrative structure rare for TV and rare for cinema.

I figured you'd be taken with the narrative considering your praise for A Brighter Summer Day and Yi Yi's narratives.

Hope to hear your and more members' thoughts after catching up to the end of Season 4.

[Mise En Scene]

If I'm not into the fifth season as much as the previous four, it's because I'm having a harder time liking any of the characters at the moment. Before, even Avon and Stringer had some kind of redeeming qualities. However, not only have the villains become nastier

SpoilerShow

I read in an interview that Simon said Marlo is the logical extension of everything that holds true of the drug war and disagreed with calling Marlo a sociopath. Also, he maintains Marlo is as complex as the other characters, which I assume includes Stringer and Avon, but he's just not showing it. I'm taking it that he's supposed to be a bit abstract. I think it's also the point that it's gonna get nastier and nastier. I shudder at the thought of who tops or succeeds Marlo.

[backstreetsbackalright]

If I'm not into the fifth season as much as the previous four, it's because I'm having a harder time liking any of the characters at the moment. Before, even Avon and Stringer had some kind of redeeming qualities. However, not only have the villains become nastier, but the game has so thoroughly corrupted the supposed good guys that they're becoming loathsome as well (although I suppose McNulty always had it in him).

This is unquestionably deliberate, and I'm very satisfied with it. The thing is, I don't see this season ending without the bulk of the show's characters finding that they've shot themselves in the foot. While I think that's probably the best place for the show to end, I must say I've a real fondness for most of them, and I genuinely hate to see the show "do wrong" by them.

[jbeall]

In every article I've read on The Wire, it's pretty clear that Simon doesn't hold out much hope for redemption beyond individual acts of will. So a character like McNulty appears to be destined for self-destruction.

But yeah, I'm so fond of many of the characters (even many of the dealers, for example Butchie and Prop Joe) that the direction of this season upsets me, even as the logic of the story makes it inevitable.

Mise en Scene, I dunno about Marlo... (sorry, don't know how to do spoilers, so I'll be oblique) there was something awfully perverse in the way he behaved as his henchman offed a character earlier this season. I think Marlo has a sadistic edge that the Barksdales and the Greeks simply don't have.

[Mise En Scene]

(sorry, don't know how to do spoilers, so I'll be oblique)

Put "spoiler" and "/spoiler" in brackets. I learned that by reply quoting a post that had the spoiler box-thing and saw how it was formatted.

SpoilerShow

Mise en Scene, I dunno about Marlo... there was something awfully perverse in the way he behaved as his henchman offed a character earlier this season. I think Marlo has a sadistic edge that the Barksdales and the Greeks simply don't have.

Oh, yeah. No doubt that there is that charateristic of Marlo. I wasn't trying to lessen that or say he's "likable" like Tony Soprano or Stringer Bell. Killing a security guard just because he felt disrespected? The next generation is probably going to be more cold-hearted. Or, Simon is saying that a drug kingpin is a drug kingpin, but their personalities and choices is still of the individual. Marlo is indeed hard to take. I think that's the point.

[jbeall]

Thanks to those who've tipped me off on spoiler tags!

SpoilerShow

But seriously, was it not completely fucking chilling when he had Chris kill Prop Joe? That wasn't just about respect, money, or power; it was almost as if there was an erotic tone to his words. It made me think that 1) Jamie Hector is a really good actor, and 2) Marlo is psychopathic. Avon's too far gone in the game, but at least he showed signs of having a soul.

[Mise En Scene]

SpoilerShow

But seriously, was it not completely fucking chilling when he had Chris kill Prop Joe? That wasn't just about respect, money, or power; it was almost as if there was an erotic tone to his words. It made me think that 1) Jamie Hector is a really good actor, and 2) Marlo is psychopathic. Avon's too far gone in the game, but at least he showed signs of having a soul.

SpoilerShow

I think Marlo was acting like that because in his mind he was convinced that Prop Joe set-up him up to be jacked by Omar at the card game which Joe did do to "force" him to join the co-op. Also, I think Marlo wrongly thought Prop Joe was in on the jacked shipment along with Omar. Thus, Marlo had a personal vandeta against Prop Joe and acted like it. From my vantage point, it's not like Marlo was acting like that only because he has lots of loose screws.

What I'm confused about is why The Greek went ahead with Marlo and not continue with Prop Joe. Is it because The Greek also thought Prop Joe was in on the jacked shipment? Or was he mad at the fact that that even happened even if Prop Joe knew nothing about it? (Which was the case.)

Simon admitted saying if any viewer felt empathetic towards Marlo it certainly wouldn't be because of the writers. Avon had a soul in regards to family and in the lovely balcony scene with Stringer prior to the night of Stringer's murder. Maybe Marlo has a little soul, but like Simon said he and the writers aren't showing it. I guess Marlo is an extreme version of Michael Corleone to those who aren't privy to his home life and have no access to his thoughts.

Hard to say with what we see. I know. Let's not forget, though, Avon was as cold-blooded as Marlo (e.g., ordering the hit on the witness in Season One), the writers just showed us more. However, I suppose Avon is the lesser of two evils.

Who knows, though. By the end of the series, maybe Simon and co. do change their views on Marlo and see him as a non-complex psycho-/sociopath.

[backstreetsbackalright]

SpoilerShow

I think Marlo was acting like that because in his mind he was convinced that Prop Joe set-up him up to be jacked by Omar at the card game which Joe did do to "force" him to join the co-op. Also, I think Marlo wrongly thought Prop Joe was in on the jacked shipment along with Omar. Thus, Marlo had a personal vandeta against Prop Joe and acted like it. From my vantage point, it's not like Marlo was acting like that only because he has lots of loose screws.

What I'm confused about is why The Greek went ahead with Marlo and not continue with Prop Joe. Is it because The Greek also thought Prop Joe was in on the jacked shipment? Or was he mad at the fact that that even happened even if Prop Joe knew nothing about it? (Which was the case.)

SpoilerShow

I dunno. I think Marlo had Prop Joe killed simply because it eliminated an obstacle on the road to a direct connect to The Greek. I think The Greek went ahead only because the money was right. I think, in this case, it was purely a matter of nasty, nasty cutthroat business.

And more generally on the season as a whole:

In their capacity as performers, individuals will be concerned with maintaining the impression that they are living up to the many standards by which they and their products are judged. Because these standards are so numerous and so pervasive, the individuals who are performers dwell more than we might think in a moral world. But, qua performers, individuals are concerned not with the moral issue of realizing these standards, but with the amoral issue of engineering a convincing impression that these standards are being realized. Our activity, then, is largely concerned with moral matters, but as performers we do not have a moral concern with them. As performers we are merchants of morality (251).

[Mise En Scene]

SpoilerShow

I dunno. I think Marlo had Prop Joe killed simply because it eliminated an obstacle on the road to a direct connect to The Greek. I think The Greek went ahead only because the money was right. I think, in this case, it was purely a matter of nasty, nasty cutthroat business.

SpoilerShow

Oh yeah, I agree that's the reason why Marlo killed Prop Joe, but those other reasons were possible explanations to Marlo's tone while talkin' to Prop Joe right before Chris popped him. As for The Greek, I overlooked the obvious - $. It's been a while since I've seen Season 2, but maybe there was something in his characterization that made me wonder why The Greek would choose to partner up with Marlo.

[Faux Hulot]

SpoilerShow

...maybe there was something in his characterization that made me wonder why The Greek would choose to partner up with Marlo.

SpoilerShow

Perhaps The Greek simply recognizes more of himself in Marlo.

[Belmondo]

No spoilers here.

Just watched the penultimate (love that word) episode. Extremely strong and more than one genuinely poignant scene. After the end credits rolled, got a brief preview of the final episode and it seems clear to me that the series will end with all the dramatic complexity we have come to expect and none of the peculularity that (for me), marred the end of "The Sopranos".

One left. Sheeeiiiiiiiiiiiit!

[jbeall]

Agreed. Very poignant episode. The threads are beginning to be tied off, and not always in the way we'd like. A few of my faves seem to have walked away from the Game, more scarred and world-weary than anybody should have to be, and others can't get out no matter how hard they try.

Brilliant show. I can't believe it's almost over.

EDIT: I was over at the "cast and crew" page of HBO's The Wire website, and noticed that they've put Carcetti's wife on the page, with a badly photoshopped green construction helmet. Anybody know the story behind that?

[Belmondo]

The Spoiler is on me:
With HBO On Demand, I've been able to see each episode of "The Wire" a week early. However, they are not showing the last episode On Demand until after it airs next Sunday night.
My first impulse is to accuse them of being rotten bastards, but, on further reflection, I guess it is best to let all of us experience it at the same time and avoid spoilers.
Smart move, you rotten bastards.

[Mise En Scene]

I wonder if Frederick Wiseman has seen the show. It would be interesting to read/hear what he thinks about the The Wire's depiction and dramatization of institutions and its individuals.

[Oedipax]

I guess it is best to let all of us experience it at the same time and avoid spoilers.
Smart move, you rotten bastards.

No such luck - fans will want to be very careful for the next few days. Episode 10 has leaked online early as of a few hours ago.

Myself, I've deliberately only watched the first few episodes of this season because I've grown accustomed to DVD marathons, not waiting a week between episodes. With all the pieces now more or less available, it's time for another Wire marathon.

The Wiseman comparison is an interesting one - The Wire is one of the few shows that could conceivably hold up to an extended analysis and comparison with a body of work as rich and complex as Wiseman's. I think Wiseman himself might be a little less pessimistic (or at least more ambivalent) than David Simon when it comes to institutions in America. Could make for a great conversation though.

[Robert de la Cheyniest]

Among filmmakers, I learned a lot from watching documentaries of various kinds, especially the work of Frederick Wiseman. Documentarians are more of an influence on my style - or lack of style, perhaps - than many auteurs. Having said that, I'm a devoted fan of the Coen Brothers, and I think "Miller's Crossing" is magical. Also, I'm fairly convinced that "Chinatown" may be the most perfect screenplay ever.

From an interview with David Simon

[Belmondo]

Final episode - No spoilers

Very satisfying ending; none of the abruptness of "The Sopranos". The many plot threads and characters are brought to a conclusion and we see that it all will continue to go on in Baltimore pretty much as before. We just won't see it.

Nicely done.

[Len]

I'm just devastated. The last episode is that good (especially the last 30 minutes or so). I need to collect my thoughts. Wow.

Not the best season of the series, but the last episode might be the best episode of the series. And that's saying a lot.

[Robert de la Cheyniest]

SpoilerShow

Some of parallels drawn at the end of the episode were a bit too pat for me--Michael is Omar, Sydnor is McNulty! But other than that I thought it was wonderful. The half way point montage with those poetic Baltimore shots nearly wrecked me, and Bubbles seat at the table at the end? Probably the most earned moment in television drama, I lost it.

"Let's go home, Larry"

I will miss this show so much

[Mise En Scene]

SpoilerShow

What a great way to end this series. The institutions live on. People avoid doing their jobs in the ideal fashion for the sake of self-preservation. The game is rigged. Play it or get played. I have my gripes with the final season, but the last two episodes are as good as any of the best in the stellar previous seasons.

Would've been nice to see what Delonda Brice and Brianna Barksdale are up to in the montage.

[denti alligator]

Was I the only one who was totally disappointed by the fifth season? This was by far the weakest season and really felt almost like a different show. None of the complexity of the earlier seasons, either in terms of character development or plot. The newspaper subplot seemed very week and hardly revealed anything about the workings of the press that isn't completely trite. There were very few moments that packed the power of any of the earlier episodes, including the relatively weak third season.

I need to mull it over some more, but my initial reaction is not at all positive.

[swo17]

Cross-post with the TV on DVD thread. The complete series box set of The Wire will be out December 9th. Click the pic for more details.



It's got the same number of discs as all 5 seasons combined, so I wouldn't be surprised if this is just a repackage. I also can't quite tell from the picture, but it looks like you have to slide the discs in the sleeves.