Bakemonogatari (Akiyuki Shinbo & Tatsuya Oishi, 2009)

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Mr Sausage
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Bakemonogatari (Akiyuki Shinbo & Tatsuya Oishi, 2009)

#1 Post by Mr Sausage » Mon Jun 26, 2023 9:26 pm

DISCUSSION ENDS MONDAY, July 31st


What we're watching::

-All 15 episodes of the anime series Bakemonogatari, broadcast from July 3rd – September 25th, 2009.


How it works:

-Members new to the series can watch the episodes and record their thoughts and impressions as they go and comment on each other's posts to create a sense of a shared viewing experience. Old hands can comment on those posts or post their overall thoughts on the series.

-This discussion is spoiler-free. All spoilers should be spoiler tagged with a brief indication of what episodes are being discussed, eg.:
episodes 1 and 2Show
nani nani nani
The code for this is:

Code: Select all

[spoiler="episodes 1 and 2"]text[/spoiler]

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Mr Sausage
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Re: Bakemonogatari (Akiyuki Shinbo & Tatsuya Oishi, 2009)

#2 Post by Mr Sausage » Mon Jun 26, 2023 9:27 pm

Murdoch chose our next anime to watch. You'll find his introduction to the series below.

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Murdoch
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Re: Bakemonogatari (Akiyuki Shinbo & Tatsuya Oishi, 2009)

#3 Post by Murdoch » Mon Jun 26, 2023 9:27 pm

I'll start off by admitting this is a difficult anime to get into, especially for those who don't understand Japanese like myself. There are constant split-second cutaways to text intertitles emphasizing the central character's thoughts, emotions and even acting as a kind of Greek chorus/commentary on what's happening. It can feel like information overload and I find myself often pausing to take in what's going on.

The Monogatari series consists of multiple parts and seasons whose actual order is the subject of much fan debate. The only thing I've discerned from all this debate is that it's widely agreed that Bake- is the best starting point, and self-contained enough that the viewer won't need knowledge of its other parts to watch it.

Bakemonogatari, and the Monogatari series as a whole, centers around Araragi Koyomi, a typically perverted male protagonist recovering from a vampire attack. As an example of the series' exploration of Japanese, his surname is made up of the kanji for "pandering" (at least according to the fan wiki, someone with a knowledge of Japanese and kanji can correct this if untrue). The plot centers around his blooming love affair with Senjougahara Hitagi (whose surname translates to "battlefield" and is a typical tsundere type - cold and abrasive to an extreme degree), and his attempts to cure various girls of mystical afflictions with the help of his mentor/"savior" Oshino Meme.

I hesitated recommending this for the watchalong because it is quite different from the series the forum has watched before. Part of the difficulty of the series is it's very much an exploration of anime as a medium, from its text intertitle asides to its heavy use of archetypes in its characters (yandere, tsundere, moe, to name a few). Characters reference various anime terms and tropes, and the text intertitles occasionally feel like a separate narrative by themselves. It's not surprising that the series hasn't been much embraced by Western audiences yet appears to be hugely popular in Japan, especially the light novel series.

However, those that aren't deterred by its style and meta-commentary will find one of the most stylistic, dynamic and experimental anime of the past thirty years. I can't wait to see the discussion on this, especially from those that hate it!

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Mr Sausage
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Re: Bakemonogatari (Akiyuki Shinbo & Tatsuya Oishi, 2009)

#4 Post by Mr Sausage » Mon Jul 03, 2023 7:51 am

Thread open!

Is the title a portmanteau word in Japanese? I know bakemono is monster, and monogatari is story, so is the title something like Monstory?

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Re: Bakemonogatari (Akiyuki Shinbo & Tatsuya Oishi, 2009)

#5 Post by Mr Sausage » Mon Jul 03, 2023 10:14 am

Episode 1Show
This was a frustrating experience. Visually and on the level of story-telling, it was unusual and often compelling. Everything seems fragmented into tableaux or the panels of a comic; nothing really flows together, it's always being abstracted and isolated. Flashes of eyes, objects, rooms, gestures, even coloured backgrounds full of words (sometimes related). The world itself seems empty, not just of people but of things and even shadings. The world is often expressionistic in the way it starts to abstract into blocks of colour with the objects they nominally represent seeming almost to disappear. It's an odd experience. Nothing is lost story-wise, but you do feel kept at arms length from the narrative. Weird style.

On the other hand, this is an irritating show. It's hard to take seriously, what with the very first shot of the show being an upskirt shot as tho' this were some parody of anime's worst conventions. And then there's plot points like a girl slipping on a banana peel. The characters are also deeply irritating. They're supposed to be 17/18 year olds, but they threaten to tell the teacher when classmates run in the hallway like this is grade 4. Personality wise, they tend to be either abrasive and aggressive or spineless and subordinate, making character interactions often an endurance test. Much of the last act is the guy taking the the girl to see a shaman, and her spending the entire trip accusing him of planning to rape her while also threatening his family. Everything about the characters is so unpleasant.

So, yeah, this was...something.

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Re: Bakemonogatari (Akiyuki Shinbo & Tatsuya Oishi, 2009)

#6 Post by knives » Mon Jul 03, 2023 1:36 pm

Is this steaming anywhere legally?

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Re: Bakemonogatari (Akiyuki Shinbo & Tatsuya Oishi, 2009)

#7 Post by yoloswegmaster » Mon Jul 03, 2023 1:50 pm

You can stream it on Crunchyroll.

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Murdoch
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Re: Bakemonogatari (Akiyuki Shinbo & Tatsuya Oishi, 2009)

#8 Post by Murdoch » Mon Jul 03, 2023 3:10 pm

knives wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2023 1:36 pm
Is this steaming anywhere legally?
Funimation has the 15 episode arc, I believe Crunchyroll only has 12 episodes. Also, there is a UK blu-ray with all 15 episodes.
Mr Sausage wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2023 7:51 am
Thread open!

Is the title a portmanteau word in Japanese? I know bakemono is monster, and monogatari is story, so is the title something like Monstory?
I believe so, yes. I've only heard it translated as Monster Story though.

I will be posting my thoughts later today after work. I think the first episode is very jarring, especially the opening sequence, but I think the show becomes easier to digest by episode 2.
Last edited by Murdoch on Mon Jul 03, 2023 8:29 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Bakemonogatari (Akiyuki Shinbo & Tatsuya Oishi, 2009)

#9 Post by Murdoch » Mon Jul 03, 2023 5:41 pm

Episode OneShow
The opening sequence I think sets expectations at a different tempo than the series bears out (I still have to explore more of the Monogatari series, particularly the parts predating Bake-). The big takeaway is Koyomi is recovering from his run-in with a vampire and Hitagi is weightless.

Rewatching the series, I find it's much more sedate than the opening makes it seem to be, which I appreciate since it allows the series to become less a spectacle (although it certainly isn't lacking in the animation department), and more an at times academic exploration of the medium it exists in, the Japanese language and spirituality.

The early discussion of an upcoming festival and exams entrench us within the space of the typical Japanese high school, introducing the viewer to Tsubasa Hanekawa, who occupies the most sought-after position in all of anime - class president! It's telling that the series begins positing Koyomi between a class president and Hitagi, who I'll get to in the next parageaph, signalling that the series' fascination with using tropes of the medium to deconstruct, particularly in that of Hitagi. However, the high school is little more than set dressing and the series quickly moves away from the standard concerns of high-schoolers.

At one point, Hitagi refers to herself as a "tsundere" type, which is one of the most prominent archetypes in contemporary anime. It refers to a character, typically female, who acts cold and abrasive but harbors a secret affection for another, often times the protagonist. Obviously this is not a uniquely Japanese character type, however anime as a medium has become one largely defined by the various tropes and character types that it employs (one need only look at the plethora of isekai anime, all following the same basic plots of fish out of water world-hopping and hero types, to see how the medium likes to find the latest craze and create countless duplicates of it) . This is why in an era of the internet defined by listicles, there are so many forums and fan websites ranking their favorite tsundere (along with yandere, and all the other -dere types that have come into existence since the suffix was embraced by Western audiences). The most popular versions of anime have become, for better or worse, almost like Mad Libs, in which characters are rigidly defined and follow an expected pattern of behavior. I think that's why I appreciated Bake- so much, because there is at least a winking awareness of its medium throughout.

Sausage, I agree with you on a lot of this, especially the fragmented style and empty world. I think this is a show in which the writers created these characters not by imagining people they wanted to craft with emotions and goals, but rather around character types they wanted to explore. It makes for a rather unwelcoming and cold experience since each character is nonchalantly analytical of their identity and personal circumstances. And Hitagi's reaction outside Oshino's place to Koyomi asking her to drop her weapons is perhaps one I'm just accustomed to, as a tsundere type is often one to overreact or read malice into others where none necessarily exists.

I wanted to note how much I really enjoyed the kanji in Koyomi's pupils: "She knows who's in my family." And it's moments like Koyomi's sarcastic recitation of "Senjyogahara-sama" that make me glad they never attempted a dub of this. There is humor to be found in this cold, remote world (although it likely won't be to everyone's tastes)!
I'd encourage anyone who watched to share their thoughts on the first episode. I think the first episode, particularly the first few minutes, are rather juvenile, but it does get better (I think)!

I also encourage people to check out the fan wiki, which has a lot of extra detail to put the series into context, and interesting tidbits like the light novel author Nisio Isin goes by the pen name NISIOISIN to emphasize his name being a palindrome!
Last edited by Murdoch on Mon Jul 03, 2023 11:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Bakemonogatari (Akiyuki Shinbo & Tatsuya Oishi, 2009)

#10 Post by Boosmahn » Mon Jul 03, 2023 9:34 pm

Murdoch wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2023 3:10 pm
Funimation has the 15 episode arc, I believe Crunchyroll only has 12 episodes. Also, there is a UK blu-ray with all 15 episodes.
Yes, Crunchyroll has been missing them for years now. The original broadcast ended at episode 12, presumably due to timeslot constraints or production delays. The remaining three episodes were released for free online; these links are probably gone now, and I'm certain they only supported Japanese.

(I originally posted a response to knives, not realizing Murdoch had already pointed out the missing episodes. I've since updated it to be less redundant. :oops:)

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Re: Bakemonogatari (Akiyuki Shinbo & Tatsuya Oishi, 2009)

#11 Post by Murdoch » Mon Jul 03, 2023 11:24 pm

No worries! I edited my post to answer the question but the availability of the 15 episodes on streaming bares repeating as a few people have asked.

Hoping you'll share your thoughts soon, Boosmahn! I think we may have to be this series' cheerleaders.

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Re: Bakemonogatari (Akiyuki Shinbo & Tatsuya Oishi, 2009)

#12 Post by Boosmahn » Mon Jul 03, 2023 11:59 pm

I'll start rewatching Bakemonogatari once I finish Psycho-Pass 2, but I'll add to some of what's been said already, specifically the opening sequence and the weirdly empty world. If I were prompted to name my favorite series in general, Monogatari would be it, and I'm always glad to champion its strengths.
Episode 1Show
The absence of background characters is a very interesting creative choice, and one that leans into a key theme of the season (and arguably the series as a whole). Bakemonogatari is told from Koyomi's perspective, and let's face it, he's not an entirely reliable narrator. With the exception of his family and those who enter his "inner circle" (mostly cute girls, because he's a teenage boy), people aren't important enough for him to take notice of. In his world, they don't exist. His bias also affects what information he does and doesn't retain.

Other things the series does reaffirm it is from his point of view, such as the occasional camera shutter noises when he blinks and what the camera chooses to focus on.

The opening sequence is basically an expedited recap of the prequel to Bakemonogatari, Kizumonogatari. I recall reading that one of the directors said they thought it would be more interesting to start the series like that instead of with the scene on the stairs.

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Re: Bakemonogatari (Akiyuki Shinbo & Tatsuya Oishi, 2009)

#13 Post by Murdoch » Wed Jul 05, 2023 6:47 pm

Episode 2 and Episode 3Show
Episode 2
Araragi and Senjougahara have a minor back-and-forth over Araragi's virginity and alleged stupidity (a common practice in anime between a tsundere type and the object of her affection), then meet with Oshino to dispel Senjougahara's affliction. I'm intrigued by Senjougahara's favorite novelist (Yumeno Kyūsaku, the pen name of Sugiyama Yasumichi). I wonder if this is a member of the creative team just throwing in an obscure favorite, or a deeper insight into Senjougahara as a character.

The episode becomes much more stylized once Senjougahara's memory of her sexual assault is revealed. It felt like I was watching something pulled straight from the Japanese New Wave. I think the episode thrives here after the rather tedious beginning. Senjougahara's mother is shown as a blank figure, text appearing instead of a face, even splicing in brief live action sequences (Is it Senjougahara? Her mother?). I like how the show portrays sexual assault as an entirely alienating experience. Not only in the way it destroys Senjougahara's relationship with her mother, but also visually. The figure of the assailant and Senjougahara's mother are abstracted, only Senjougahara remains identifiable in these depictions. Unlike most anime in which a tsundere/yandere types are given little backstory for their personalities, here it's clear why Senjougahara is quick to violent self-protection around Araragi.

Episode 3
Senjougahara's treatment of Araragi at times feels like a parody of the tsundere relationship, wherein the tsundere character insults the object of her affection to disguise her feelings (here she "greets" Araragi by referring to him as reminiscent of a dog's corpse). Her character alternates between this archetype and an academic analyzing the dichotomy of the medium in which she exists and the language which she speaks. She dissects the kanji for moe, prior to the introduction of the series' moe character Mayoi.

"Moe" is perhaps the most amorphous concept in contemporary anime - one often used to infantile or cutesy/"kawaii" characters that can inspire a strong feeling of affection in viewers. Anyone who has been to Akihabara and the seen the countless plushie dolls of infantilized anime girls can see just how pervasive this trend is in anime marketing.

Some highlights for me:
- I loved the fortunes that Hitagi conjures/Koyomi imagines, especially the Life one ("You will win all lawsuits").
- I'm fascinated by Mayoi's surname, Hachikuji, being an allusion to the Shikoku Pilgrimage and a bit of trivia found in one of the wikis: "Although the name [Hachikuji" consists of the characters for 'eight', 'nine' and 'temple', the kanji for 'eight' and 'nine' can also be read as 'yaku' together, which means misfortune."

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Re: Bakemonogatari (Akiyuki Shinbo & Tatsuya Oishi, 2009)

#14 Post by Mr Sausage » Wed Jul 05, 2023 8:36 pm

I'm curious why the show is so pervasively metatextual. From the exaggerated anime types, to characters who stop talking in order to talk about how they talk, to the intertitles that mimic production notes and such, the show is shoving its constructedness in your face. But why? The show is self-aware, but at least in the first three episodes stops short of commentary. Is it purely an aesthetic effect, another layer of formal distancing to complement the manic framings that isolate things and people and such? Because at the moment the show risks being a lot of clever in-jokes for the self-aware anime fan.

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Re: Bakemonogatari (Akiyuki Shinbo & Tatsuya Oishi, 2009)

#15 Post by Michael Kerpan » Wed Jul 05, 2023 9:04 pm

Also up to ep. 3. So far I can't really say I am "understanding" what the heck is going on. On the other hand, I can't say I am not finding it interesting and enjoyable (even if a high school boy getting into a knock-down fight with a grade school girl is a jut a wee bit peculiar).

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Re: Bakemonogatari (Akiyuki Shinbo & Tatsuya Oishi, 2009)

#16 Post by Boosmahn » Wed Jul 05, 2023 11:22 pm

Mr Sausage wrote:
Wed Jul 05, 2023 8:36 pm
I'm curious why the show is so pervasively metatextual.
The intertitles are widely agreed upon to be referencing the French New Wave, which Oishi was undoubtedly inspired by. (There are some French intertitles in Kizumonogatari, although that adaptation is unique for having barely any of them, regardless of language.) I am very unfamiliar with the movement, so I can't elaborate much further than that. The intertitles are also useful for quickly showing Koyomi's thoughts in a rapid-fire way.

As for the stock character types, I was going to write a response but someone from a Monogatari community I'm in already explained it and the series' general meta-ness well. Some background information: Monogatari originally started as a series of short stories.
Steve wrote:
Episode 2Show
To me at least when it comes to [Bakemonogatari], it is a structural choice. The target audience is definitely japanese otaku stuff. Like all the characters at surface evaluation are your typical anime/manga stock characters and this is for the sake of quick readability. Understanding the type of character first to then write by extending the so what. The why are they as they are. For [Senjyogahara], it is why she is tsundere and what that entails. [...] It is written causality from the perspective of human condition.
I get the vibe when looking at [Senjyogahara] or Hachikuji [as] characters. They had a simpler role to fill. [Hitagi] Crab is the oldest written arc for the faust magazine. Then [Arc 2] and [Arc 3], which are all to the point. When came to serialization this became [Bakemonogatari volume one], [and with volume two] it went to a ever so slightly more ambitious direction. [Arc 4] and [Arc 5] are incomplete stories.
They also mentioned the characters' names, which I believe are almost all representative of some aspect(s) of their personality or situation. I don't think the series continues this trend in further installments, though.

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Re: Bakemonogatari (Akiyuki Shinbo & Tatsuya Oishi, 2009)

#17 Post by Murdoch » Thu Jul 06, 2023 11:13 pm

Here's an interview with director Oishi, although most of it is about other entries of the Monogatari series, this section was when he was asked, "What was your mindset regarding the locations in Kizumonogatari [the prequel to Bake-], such as the abandoned cram school?" (Which I believe is the same school as in Bake-).
In 2011, we had the terrible earthquake on 3.11, and I think the modern world in a lot of ways has become a hard place to grow up in for young people. And yet they still have to live in this society, in Japan now… I think the first time I began to understand Koyomi was when I started thinking about that. That’s why for the locations, I thought about “what it means to live in Japan in the years to come”. For example, the reason why we reference buildings designed by Kenzo Tange is that to me, his works somewhat embody this country at its peak. So I wanted to have a setting where his buildings look like colossal tombstones—and this imagery of the bygone days eventually leads back to the Tokyo Olympics.[...]

Getting away a bit from the locations, the use of French has the same reason. Bakemonogatari was made with influences from French New Wave, but we’re working with Japanese films this time around. Instead, we wanted it to have the feel of a 60s Japanese film that was shaped by New Wave, so there are still nods to French cinema in there.
There are parts of the series that remind me of Godard at his most experimental, and that's the reference point I keep thinking of as the series' influence. Koyomi and Hitagi's dialogues feel pulled from a Godard script at times and I think Pierrot le fou or any of Godard's 60s work could make an interesting double bill with this series.

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Re: Bakemonogatari (Akiyuki Shinbo & Tatsuya Oishi, 2009)

#18 Post by Murdoch » Sun Jul 09, 2023 3:22 pm

I hope I'm not the only one still hanging on! The holiday week took up a lot of my time but I'll be posting more this week.
Episode FourShow
This episode is a drag. It lacks much of the visual inventiveness that the series is known for and amounts to Koyomi, Hitagi and Mai Mai wandering aimlessly, only to end the episode with a phone call.

I always enjoy the show's analysis of kanji, but that was really the only interesting part of the episode. Hanekawa's sudden appearance gave me the impression the writers weren't sure how to fill the time between Koyomi and Mai Mai, and rather decided to throw in this character we haven't seen in a while. There were some teasing fanservice shots of Hanekawa which could be argued as the series playing with the viewer's expectations of titillation (the shots cut short before showcasing any of Hanekawa's, um, features) but they feel more like attempts to fill the void and keep viewer's interest rather than good-faith criticism of anime's reliance on sexualizing female characters. Even Hitagi's insults of Koyomi were lacking and predictable.

Overall the weakest episode for me, but I think that's Mai Mai's part overall. I do love the opening title sequence though!

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Re: Bakemonogatari (Akiyuki Shinbo & Tatsuya Oishi, 2009)

#19 Post by Boosmahn » Sun Jul 09, 2023 5:37 pm

Episode 5Show
I always took Hanekawa's appearance as a means of misdirecting the audience. Without her interacting with Hachikuji, first-time readers/watchers might realize Hachikuji is a ghost or apparition.

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Re: Bakemonogatari (Akiyuki Shinbo & Tatsuya Oishi, 2009)

#20 Post by Mr Sausage » Mon Jul 10, 2023 8:59 am

No, I'm still here, picking away at episodes as usual. I'm up to episode 4 as well. I don't have much to say right now because, honestly, this might be the most obscure anime I've seen so far. I know what's happening on a plot level, but the meaning or purpose of what the characters are doing or saying, or even the composition of the world of the show...I couldn't say. There's something about this show that eludes my understanding. I appreciate the notes you guys have given; it's opened up some aspects of the thing. But otherwise I'm at sea. I'm hoping things become more graspable as I watch more episodes. Tho' I feel like I ought to watch each episode twice, there's so much visual and verbal information coming at you. And more than any other anime, I feel like I'm missing a lot not speaking Japanese.

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Re: Bakemonogatari (Akiyuki Shinbo & Tatsuya Oishi, 2009)

#21 Post by Michael Kerpan » Mon Jul 10, 2023 9:49 am

I think parts of this are so rapid-fire (especially the text) that it probably would have been tough for native Japanese users....

I'm pulling ahead slowly -- made it through the Suruga Monkey section...

Not sure how much I understand -- but I am finding it enjoyable (despite the very low resolution version on Crunchyroll -- is 480p the best this can get -- given its era?)

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Re: Bakemonogatari (Akiyuki Shinbo & Tatsuya Oishi, 2009)

#22 Post by Boosmahn » Mon Jul 10, 2023 6:35 pm

Michael Kerpan wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2023 9:49 am
Not sure how much I understand -- but I am finding it enjoyable (despite the very low resolution version on Crunchyroll -- is 480p the best this can get -- given its era?)
No, it looks pretty good on Blu-ray. It's also available in 1080p on Funimation's site -- which has the full 15-episode season!

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Re: Bakemonogatari (Akiyuki Shinbo & Tatsuya Oishi, 2009)

#23 Post by Murdoch » Mon Jul 10, 2023 7:11 pm

I've been reading through several fan forums and reddits for the show. It's fascinating to learn how much is lost due to the language barrier

For example, Mai Mai in one episode refers to Araragi as "Muraragi," which seems like just a mispronunciation of his name (he even chastises her for saying his name incorrectly). However, "Muraragi" is a play on "muramura," relating to sexual frustration. I believe Mai Mai repeating Araragi's name (e.g. "Arararagi") is also word play meant to insult Koyomi

I found this Reddit thread on the significance found in each character's name to be very insightful.

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Re: Bakemonogatari (Akiyuki Shinbo & Tatsuya Oishi, 2009)

#24 Post by Boosmahn » Mon Jul 10, 2023 7:28 pm

Murdoch wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2023 7:11 pm
I found this Reddit thread on the significance found in each character's name to be very insightful.
It's worth noting that moderate spoilers for First and Second Season (up to Koimonogatari) start at the Araragi Karen and Araragi Tsukihi entry and major spoilers for Second and Final Season (up to Zoku Owarimonogatari) start at the information about Numachi Rouka.
Last edited by Boosmahn on Mon Jul 10, 2023 7:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bakemonogatari (Akiyuki Shinbo & Tatsuya Oishi, 2009)

#25 Post by Michael Kerpan » Mon Jul 10, 2023 7:29 pm

Alas, we let our Funimation subscription expire. I may have to sail the Seven Seas....
Shocking how bad the CR version looks.

I do know an alternate place to see the last 3 eps in proper form (seems safe enough if you have adequate spyware/virus protection up and running).

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