The Conformist and 1900
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- Joined: Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:43 am
can that forum censor be user specific? you could make it so that everytime one of us Canucks posts 'about' it turns into 'aboot', eh?
But honestly, working customer service for cingular wireless from up here has nearly removed 'eh' from my vocabulary. I only use it occasionally when asking questions, and since I'm wiser than most of my friends on the subjects we always talk about, I don't often ask questions...
PS. Sandrelli looks stunning in the Conformist caps, can't wait to get these discs.
But honestly, working customer service for cingular wireless from up here has nearly removed 'eh' from my vocabulary. I only use it occasionally when asking questions, and since I'm wiser than most of my friends on the subjects we always talk about, I don't often ask questions...
PS. Sandrelli looks stunning in the Conformist caps, can't wait to get these discs.
Last edited by Guest on Sat Dec 02, 2006 5:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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This is from Dan Schneider's Tokyo Story review on TSPDT:Barmy wrote:Man those yellow subtitles look awful. Does anybody actually prefer yellow?
The American DVD of Tokyo Story was released by The Criterion Collection on a two disk version and the print of the film on Disk One was in very disappointing quality, with streaks, murky grays and too light whites. Criterion usually does far better work than this. It is especially annoying when trying to read the white subtitles against the blanched and bleeding backgrounds. Are gold subtitles too much to ask, especially when there is no English language dubbed track to satisfy real film connoisseurs who appreciate the visual aspects of the medium?
- Lino
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I love it when he says "gold subtitles". It adds a whole new meaning to yellow on B/W.
I always see it as someone pissing on snow but hey, that's only me.
Dylan, could you make a visual comparison with the 1900 italian edition when you receive the Paramount? I am curious about just how different they would look side by side.
I always see it as someone pissing on snow but hey, that's only me.
Dylan, could you make a visual comparison with the 1900 italian edition when you receive the Paramount? I am curious about just how different they would look side by side.
- Lino
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:18 am
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- Dylan
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:28 pm
I spent the better part of yesterday afternoon going through these DVDs, and I'm floored. Paramount has done a remarkable job with the transfers and presentation.
As far as the audio goes for "The Conformist," if you choose the Italiano option on the menu the Italian audio will be set up for you. In fear of using too many adjectives, I'll just say that this new DVD presentation is overwhelming...the film looks and sounds brand new, and this was in turn the greatest experience I've ever had watching it. A film that definitively represents its art form, and (for me) the holy grail of DVD releases.
Now I'll move over to "1900," which has been available for a few years, but only in versions plagued with numerous visual problems. As predicted, this new DVD looks ridiculously superior to the other versions I've seen. Not only does everything finally look as beautiful as it can, but the new trasnfer even window-boxes the main titles.
One of the great surprises was that going through this new "1900" DVD has moved me to endorse the English track. I don't wholly prefer it, but I like it. Aside from the impressive American cast, the English voices for all of the principal European cast members (Stefania Sandrelli, Gerard Depardieu, and Dominique Sanda, all of whom dubbed their own voices as far as I know) are impressively in synch with the lip movements and are nicely tied with their characters.
The main problem I always had with the English dub (aside from the opening hour and a half, which is mostly disconcerting as everybody there is Italian except two cast members) was more in terms of accuracy with the story, but now I look at "1900" in more of an expressive and physical way, and not so much in terms of accuaracy. Bertolucci himself said that he had American and Soviet cinema in his mind during the preparation for this, and for some reason, that passage of the documentary made me appreciate the English dub's function, even if I'm not sure I'd recommend it over the Italian. He's trying to be transcendental with the nationality of this story...not that I didn't catch that on previous viewings, but I didn't really feel it until this viewing...in many ways, as he says, this is his "American" film.
It is important to note that the dubbing of the Italian co-stars (particularly the children) gets pretty shakey in the first half of the English dub, as do some of the translations, but with the considerably clearer visual atmosphere I found this easier to digest, although I do believe if one were to view the entire thing in English, for maximum effect (since the Italian to English ratio is so high in this part of the film) the first 90 minutes should be viewed in Italian, and the rest in English. But both dubs work.
As far as the audio goes for "The Conformist," if you choose the Italiano option on the menu the Italian audio will be set up for you. In fear of using too many adjectives, I'll just say that this new DVD presentation is overwhelming...the film looks and sounds brand new, and this was in turn the greatest experience I've ever had watching it. A film that definitively represents its art form, and (for me) the holy grail of DVD releases.
Now I'll move over to "1900," which has been available for a few years, but only in versions plagued with numerous visual problems. As predicted, this new DVD looks ridiculously superior to the other versions I've seen. Not only does everything finally look as beautiful as it can, but the new trasnfer even window-boxes the main titles.
One of the great surprises was that going through this new "1900" DVD has moved me to endorse the English track. I don't wholly prefer it, but I like it. Aside from the impressive American cast, the English voices for all of the principal European cast members (Stefania Sandrelli, Gerard Depardieu, and Dominique Sanda, all of whom dubbed their own voices as far as I know) are impressively in synch with the lip movements and are nicely tied with their characters.
The main problem I always had with the English dub (aside from the opening hour and a half, which is mostly disconcerting as everybody there is Italian except two cast members) was more in terms of accuracy with the story, but now I look at "1900" in more of an expressive and physical way, and not so much in terms of accuaracy. Bertolucci himself said that he had American and Soviet cinema in his mind during the preparation for this, and for some reason, that passage of the documentary made me appreciate the English dub's function, even if I'm not sure I'd recommend it over the Italian. He's trying to be transcendental with the nationality of this story...not that I didn't catch that on previous viewings, but I didn't really feel it until this viewing...in many ways, as he says, this is his "American" film.
It is important to note that the dubbing of the Italian co-stars (particularly the children) gets pretty shakey in the first half of the English dub, as do some of the translations, but with the considerably clearer visual atmosphere I found this easier to digest, although I do believe if one were to view the entire thing in English, for maximum effect (since the Italian to English ratio is so high in this part of the film) the first 90 minutes should be viewed in Italian, and the rest in English. But both dubs work.
Last edited by Dylan on Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:45 am, edited 5 times in total.
- Lino
- Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:18 am
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Re: english dub on 1900 -- I always watched it with the actors speaking in english because as you said, the lip movements matched the words. When I bought the italian DVD, it was the first time I ever watched it with them speaking in italian and it didn't quite work for me, though.
Dylan, if you have the time I would still very much like to see a visual comparison between the italian DVD and the new Paramount, if it's not asking too much.
Dylan, if you have the time I would still very much like to see a visual comparison between the italian DVD and the new Paramount, if it's not asking too much.
- Dylan
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:28 pm
It's not asking too much, I'll post a few on this thread tonight (the image sizes won't be as big as the Beaver's, but you'll get the idea).Dylan, if you have the time I would still very much like to see a visual comparison between the italian DVD and the new Paramount, if it's not asking too much.
Re: English dubbing. I'm open to watching it in either English or Italian, actually, but for the moment I am interested in how the English functions. But as I said, if one were to view this film in English, I believe the film will play to maximum effect with the first 90 minutes in Italian, then the remaining 4 hours in English. I do believe the Italian track is more consistent, but the English track is an interesting and commendable diversion. I haven't listened to any of the French track yet, which features Sanda and Depardieu (both of whom are also featured in the English dub, as I noted above).
Last edited by Dylan on Thu Dec 07, 2006 3:52 am, edited 5 times in total.
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- Don Lope de Aguirre
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- Lino
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- Dylan
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:28 pm
The Italian transfer has a stinging layer of yellow over every shot, which for years I thought was intended, but it certainly wasn't, it was just a poor transfer.
The Paramount DVD is much cleaner, less yellowed (other than where intended, like some of the adolescent parts, or where Storaro breaks out the late afternoon light during the cocaine scene), more natural, bright, colorful, warm. White and natural lights are particuarly of more prominence now. The shot of Sanda on the horse, and all of the nighttime shots are vastly improved...here are a couple more images from the Paramount DVD:
Stunning.
Along with some of his other films, I've been sporadically studying "1900" in my spare time for the past few days, and I've come to overall prefer the Italian dub, and by a wide margin. The English dub is a lot of fun because of the gathering of voices, and it's a very compelling, if blemished, alternative...but this film is just too "Italian" to me for the English dub...the scenes with the peasants (who are all dubbed) are loaded with little bits of Italian humor and profanities, and it's clear to me that the script was written in Italian with a great deal of it intended to be spoken in it.
And, although it's not perfect, I've become rather fond of whoever is dubbing DeNiro in the Italian audio...it matches his character quite well, especially some of the more absurd moments (like where he's taking off his pants, then hops and spins around...he must have been watching some silent films!). And while studying the dubs, I've come to realize that Depardieu is dubbing himself for the Italian version! I didn't realize this before, but switching back and forth between the two tracks several times, I'm now very familiar with his voice (he has a very sensitive voice, particularly when speaking other languages...I really like it). I'll bet he's fluent in a slew of languages, if this is any indication.
There are some scenes I quite prefer in English: the part where they sleep with the poor woman (which is excellent, I love how Bertolucci's uniting, then breaking, what's left of their friendship through this rather strange moment), the scene with Sanda drunk in the bar, and a few others just feel better in English. But while watching the entire film I will always choose Italian for sheer consistency, and to not get annoyed at the poor dubbing of the co-stars (particularly of the peasants). But I will watch the scenes I prefer in English when I refer back to them separately. Fun!
It's not a perfect film, but in the grand scheme of things, no matter how successful or unsuccessful it is, "1900" is mean, striking, and fascinating.
By the way, I see Xploited Cinema has finally stocked the French "Sheltering Sky" release, and although it's still expensive, it's about $30 less than it would be if one ordered it from France.
The Paramount DVD is much cleaner, less yellowed (other than where intended, like some of the adolescent parts, or where Storaro breaks out the late afternoon light during the cocaine scene), more natural, bright, colorful, warm. White and natural lights are particuarly of more prominence now. The shot of Sanda on the horse, and all of the nighttime shots are vastly improved...here are a couple more images from the Paramount DVD:
Stunning.
Along with some of his other films, I've been sporadically studying "1900" in my spare time for the past few days, and I've come to overall prefer the Italian dub, and by a wide margin. The English dub is a lot of fun because of the gathering of voices, and it's a very compelling, if blemished, alternative...but this film is just too "Italian" to me for the English dub...the scenes with the peasants (who are all dubbed) are loaded with little bits of Italian humor and profanities, and it's clear to me that the script was written in Italian with a great deal of it intended to be spoken in it.
And, although it's not perfect, I've become rather fond of whoever is dubbing DeNiro in the Italian audio...it matches his character quite well, especially some of the more absurd moments (like where he's taking off his pants, then hops and spins around...he must have been watching some silent films!). And while studying the dubs, I've come to realize that Depardieu is dubbing himself for the Italian version! I didn't realize this before, but switching back and forth between the two tracks several times, I'm now very familiar with his voice (he has a very sensitive voice, particularly when speaking other languages...I really like it). I'll bet he's fluent in a slew of languages, if this is any indication.
There are some scenes I quite prefer in English: the part where they sleep with the poor woman (which is excellent, I love how Bertolucci's uniting, then breaking, what's left of their friendship through this rather strange moment), the scene with Sanda drunk in the bar, and a few others just feel better in English. But while watching the entire film I will always choose Italian for sheer consistency, and to not get annoyed at the poor dubbing of the co-stars (particularly of the peasants). But I will watch the scenes I prefer in English when I refer back to them separately. Fun!
It's not a perfect film, but in the grand scheme of things, no matter how successful or unsuccessful it is, "1900" is mean, striking, and fascinating.
By the way, I see Xploited Cinema has finally stocked the French "Sheltering Sky" release, and although it's still expensive, it's about $30 less than it would be if one ordered it from France.
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- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:55 pm
Does anyone know who owns rights to "Spider's Strategem" in R1? 2006 has brought to us three of the most desired Italian films on DVD: The Conformist, 1900, and The Passenger. Now if Warner were to release "Zabriskie Point", Criterion to release "Red Desert" and whoever to release "Spider's Strategem", life would be so.........good.
- Cinephrenic
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- Dylan
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:28 pm
As far as I know, "La Luna" is still with 20th Century Fox, and I seriously doubt a release is forthcoming. Luckily, the R2 Art Haus release from Germany is an absolutely breathtaking transfer. One of his best films, I feel, well worth buying if you're a fan.
And yes, again as far as I know, "The Spider's Strategem" is still with New Yorker. The VHS is passable if you want to see it, but it could look so much better (and it's supposed to be 1.66, which the VHS is not). I hope we see it on DVD in some region with English subs in 2007.
And "Zabriskie Point" and "Red Desert" really need to get out there. They sound excellent.
And yes, again as far as I know, "The Spider's Strategem" is still with New Yorker. The VHS is passable if you want to see it, but it could look so much better (and it's supposed to be 1.66, which the VHS is not). I hope we see it on DVD in some region with English subs in 2007.
And "Zabriskie Point" and "Red Desert" really need to get out there. They sound excellent.
- rohmerin
- Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:36 am
- Location: Spain
Both arrived to my place. These Amazon guys, now send all from America across New Zealand, and it's a surprise how it's a shorter wait than the old across German Amazon delivery. Only 15 days. (using German post ¿was / were? 21 days or more)
Beautiful DVDs. Beautiful films. For a very few of Euros, I own two of my favourite movies.
Beautiful DVDs. Beautiful films. For a very few of Euros, I own two of my favourite movies.
- Kinsayder
- Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 6:22 pm
- Location: UK
Including me (I was watching the French dub). I thought it was a manufacturing error until I read this thread and went through all the interview featurettes on the disc. They really ought to flag that up on the packaging or at the start of the film.Dylan wrote:For the "dance of the blind" segment, I'm assuming it switches to Italian, then? That's going to confuse almost every casual viewer.
- Dylan
- Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:28 pm
David,
Glad to read your thoughts on "The Conformist."
The source I used for the OAR of "Spider's Stratagem" was a technical citation in a Bertolucci book I have, and I went with it because that's also the aspect ratio of other Italian TV films I've seen (like Fellini's "Prova D'Orchestra"). However, since you've seen it theatrically in 1.37, and since the framing as it is on VHS strikes me as perfect, and since I just looked at the section on "Spider's" in Storaro's Writing with Light and the frame blowups are 1.37...it's 1.37.
I'd love to watch this again soon, but I believe I'll wait until a better print surfaces.
This gives me an idea for a thread, though: European films made for television...I haven't seen very many myself, but I'd love to hear about others.
Glad to read your thoughts on "The Conformist."
God yes. Like all of Bertolucci, "The Spider's Stratagem" is absolutely gorgeous to look at (that shot where Athos enters the backyard and the camera scans the premises in a 180, then suddenly stops at the sight of Alida Vali, then tracking with her...) even at its current muddy state on VHS. It really does need to surface on DVD soon, restored by Storaro with a new English subtitle translation (the New Yorker VHS subs are pretty mediocre, and I believe the font is the worst I've encountered).Dylan I think this was shot for 1.37 as it was made for RAI TV. I've only seen it once theatrically (in 16mm) and that screening was also Academy ratio. In any case I would be happy with 1.37 for DVD. And the ravishing Technicolor!
The source I used for the OAR of "Spider's Stratagem" was a technical citation in a Bertolucci book I have, and I went with it because that's also the aspect ratio of other Italian TV films I've seen (like Fellini's "Prova D'Orchestra"). However, since you've seen it theatrically in 1.37, and since the framing as it is on VHS strikes me as perfect, and since I just looked at the section on "Spider's" in Storaro's Writing with Light and the frame blowups are 1.37...it's 1.37.
I'd love to watch this again soon, but I believe I'll wait until a better print surfaces.
This gives me an idea for a thread, though: European films made for television...I haven't seen very many myself, but I'd love to hear about others.
- Lemmy Caution
- Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 3:26 am
- Location: East of Shanghai
La Luna is available here if it can't be had elsewhere.Dylan wrote:As far as I know, "La Luna" is still with 20th Century Fox, and I seriously doubt a release is forthcoming. Luckily, the R2 Art Haus release from Germany is an absolutely breathtaking transfer. One of his best films, I feel, well worth buying if you're a fan/
And "Zabriskie Point" and "Red Desert" really need to get out there. They sound excellent.
A Scandanavian release, from Sweden it looks.
Red Desert is around too (from France or Italy, I forget which).
- Jean-Luc Garbo
- Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:55 am
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Has someone noticed a subtitling quirk on the DVD to Il Conformista? When Clerici goes to his fiancee's home for the first time we meet her, they go off to a room and the subtitles "You know what I was thinking? I really must go to a fortune teller. I want to know everything about you" appear but there is no sound going along with the words. I was watching this on the French dub. Does anyone know what may be going on with this?
- Gordon
- Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:03 am
While watching Paramount's, It's a Wonderful Life disc, I thought to myself, I wonder what the yellow subtitles look like - but I was shocked to see that they are WHITE! Now, who decides these things? I am actually ever-so-slightly more forgiving of yellow subs on a bw film, as there is some rationale behind it, ie. they are easier for the weak-sighted to see, but on The Conformist - a visual feast of a film that 99.9% of customers will need subtitles in order to appreciate? Bizarre. How many times have Paramount used white subs? I am guessing, but It's a Wonderful Life may be the first for me! Perhaps The Conformist was authored before It's a Wonderful Life and white is the new yellow? Are the subs on the most recent releases yellow or white?