Roberto Rossellini

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Saimo
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Re: Roberto Rossellini

#51 Post by Saimo » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:19 am

Italian DVD only features the Italian version (with optional Italian subs):
http://www.amazon.it/La-Paura-Ingrid-Be ... 007AB3RWA/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Roberto Rossellini

#52 Post by tag gallagher » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:32 am

TMDaines wrote:[It seems there's only the Italian NON CREDO PIU IN AMORE version available online right now, with English fansubs, and the English language version from 1954 is currently difficult to get hold of.
Unfortunately the vid of FEAR which TMDaines has access to was made from a print which was missing the first 30 seconds or so (driving around Munich). The print got fixed but not the vid. This also accounts for Saimo's impression that the Italian and English editions differ in this respect. They do not. It's simply that one print was missing footage.

Non credo più in amore can't be studied in regard to Rossellini's representation of Germany as that edition was created against his will.

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Re: Germany Year Zero

#53 Post by kaream » Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:05 pm

tag gallagher wrote:I can't tell you how many LONG arguments I have had trying to convince people that the "original" version of Deutschland im Jahre Null, shot in direct sound in German in Germany by German actors and recorded by French and German technicians, is not the Italian dubbing by Italian voices in Italy not even supervised by Rossellini. People persist in believing that the "original" version is Germania anno zero and that it is everything else that is dubbing.
It seems to me that in their effort to issue an "authentic" release of Germany Year Zero on DVD in its original German version - I've never seen the Blu-ray - Criterion was unfortunately unable to obtain a fair copy of this version. The picture quality of Criterion's release is pretty poor. But the Italian version issued by Image Entertainment is very nearly pristine. Personally I found it worthwhile to get both of them.

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Re: Roberto Rossellini

#54 Post by tag gallagher » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:47 pm

The video of Criterion's Deutschland im Jahre Null is in fact from the Italian master, except for the titles, the German 35mm negative having been sent to Italy a few years ago. To my eyes, the Criterion image quality is superior to Image's, so much so that I can't help wondering if kaream has seen the Criterion. I don't think either's image is good enough, however. (I have not seen the Bologna/Flamingo blu-ray of the Italian dubbing.)
The Criterion's audio is from a 35mm print in Berlin's Deutsche Kinemathek. This was the first release of the movie's original edition on video. (It has subsequently been released in Germany, using Criterion's master.) The film was exhibited in German originally in the U.S. and the U.K. in the 1940s and subsequently in a wretched 16mm in the U.K. The Italian dubbing, which was not done by Rossellini, was intended solely for Italian audiences (who do not accept subtitling). The production was principally French, however (though shot in Berlin and Rome), and naturally in France it was shown dubbed in French.
The reason people confusedly think of it as an Italian film is due to Rossellini's insouciance, who sold it to U.S. distributors for reissue in the early 1970s, along with the tv films, and having access effortlessly to the Italian dubbing, he supplied it rather than the German, and thus it is this counterfeit version which was virtually all anyone heard about during the last four decades. Alas.
If anyone prefers to experience movies originally shot in direct sound, not in their original sound with the actors' own voices, but instead dubbed into a foreign language with other people's voices, there are tens of thousands of wonderful opportunities waiting. Why bother with The Searchers or Citizen Kane or Vertigo in English, when it's so worthwhile to see them in Italian? Indeed, if Italian is your language, it's almost universally preferred in Italian. Perhaps Image might be persuaded to distribute them in the U.S., as it has done for Deutschland im Jahre Null.

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Re: Roberto Rossellini

#55 Post by Stefan Andersson » Wed Apr 30, 2014 2:45 pm

La Paura restored: http://www.festival-cannes.com/en/article/60568.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Roberto Rossellini

#56 Post by tag gallagher » Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:13 pm

They've restored the Italian dubbing of what was shot in direct sound in English.
Which is also the ridiculous edition Criterion has put on line. Why not the correct edition?
At least at Cannes you'd think, if they're going to show a dubbing, they'd show the French dubbing.

It was shot twice, once in German (Angst), once in English (Fear), both times in direct sound. Fear has shots missing in Angst and there are differences in editing.

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Re: Roberto Rossellini

#57 Post by cinemartin » Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:20 pm

Tag - do you know if the German version is available anywhere?

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Re: Roberto Rossellini

#58 Post by tag gallagher » Wed Apr 30, 2014 3:37 pm

I have a tape from German tv long long ago. Don't know if there's something more recent. All the more reason to decry Italian dubbings in place of the original works.

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Re: Roberto Rossellini

#59 Post by TMDaines » Fri May 02, 2014 7:48 am

Looking forward to the resto, The film needs it. Where does it say what language the film is going to be presented in?

I don't think there's ever gonna be consensus on the single "true" version.

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Re: Roberto Rossellini

#60 Post by tag gallagher » Fri May 02, 2014 9:36 am

Why do you say there's not going to consensus on the true version?
It was shot in direct sound once in German, once in English.
So there are two true versions.
There are also false versions -- namely, dubbing to some other language.

You have to see this in context. In Italy, subtitles were NEVER used. Therefore EVERY movie distributed in Italy was dubbed into Italian, regardless of origin. And Rossellini was in favor of audiences seeing movies in their own language. So the Italian dubbing exists for Italians; it wasn't intended for Chinese or Indians or Russians or Americans.

The Cannes publicity linked to here says it's being shown in Italian. There is no mention of "Fear."

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Re: Roberto Rossellini

#61 Post by tag gallagher » Fri May 02, 2014 9:45 am

The reason this and other Italian dubbings are online rather than the authentic versions is because the company doing the "restorations" is an Italian company and is naturally giving preference to Italian editions, and Criterion has obtained rights or whatever from this Italian company -- L'Immagine Ritrovata. Now, however, they are starting to do the authentic editions, notably a blu-ray Deutschland im Jahre Null after doing Germania anno zero a few years ago.

Where do you get the idea there's no consensus? Far as I'm aware the only person not in the consensus is you.

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Re: Roberto Rossellini

#62 Post by TMDaines » Thu Jun 05, 2014 9:29 am

Sorry for the confusion, I forgot I posted here.
tag gallagher wrote:Where do you get the idea there's no consensus? Far as I'm aware the only person not in the consensus is you.
As you said so yourself, there is more than one "true" version, so it is unlikely that they'll ever be a consensus on a 'single "true" [preferred] version', as I suggested, which becomes the standard version that is screened and released down the generations.

I never said I was looking forward to the Italian audio, I was just glad it was being restored. Hopefully it makes it easier for someone to do something with the English and German versions. Which Italian cut did they do? The re-release Non credo più all'amore?

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Re: Roberto Rossellini

#63 Post by tag gallagher » Thu Jun 05, 2014 10:19 am

There are two "true" versions because the film was mostly shot twice, once with people speaking German, once with people speaking English. Subsequently, the English version was dubbed in Italian (not with Rossellini's participation but with his permission); so I would say that the Italian dubbing is less "true" for the same reason that I'd argue that an Italian dubbing of Citizen Kane is less "true" than the authentic English version; you apparently disagree...!
What Criterion put on line is this Italian dubbing, which they did because they contracted a number of titles from L'Immagine Ritrovata.
Non credo più all'amore is a recutting/massacre of La paura (the Italian dubbing of Fear/Angst) perpetrated by the Italian distributor against the wishes of Rossellini, thus making it somewhat equivalent to the 84-minute butchering of Stromboli by RKO, and thus far less "true" than either the authentic direct-sound version, and even less "true" than the Italian dubbing of Fear.
But aside from arguments about what is "true," there is also the question of expediency. If on one hand I'd condemn Il citadine Kane, Via col vento, etc, on the other hand it is likely that an Italian who doesn't understand English will get far far closer to the "true" Citizen Kane and the "true" Gone with the Wind by seeing them dubbed into Italian than by seeing them in English with Italian subtitles; truth is sometimes better served by falsity.

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Re: Roberto Rossellini

#64 Post by Michael Kerpan » Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:33 am

> on the other hand it is likely that an Italian who doesn't understand English will
> get far far closer to the "true" Citizen Kane and the "true" Gone with the Wind
> by seeing them dubbed into Italian than by seeing them in English with Italian
> subtitles;

Doesn't this depend on just how conscientious (and talented) the creator of the dubbing script and the dub performers are? Has anyone ever seriously looked into how often (if ever) creators of dubs study the original and try to re-create the closest possible rendition in the "local" language.

At least in a subbed version (even a slightly sub-par one), you get the sound (and intangible meaning) of the original voices. Returning to Citizen Kane -- at least for me, the actual sounds of the various original voices are at least as important as what those voices are saying.

It is possible that other directors, not as interested in the vocal/aural side of things, might create films where dubbing is less problematic. ;-}

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Re: Roberto Rossellini

#65 Post by tag gallagher » Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:22 pm

Well, if the dubbing creator is so conscientious and talented (not to mention the talent of his recruited voices) then oughtn't he/she receive co credit as director? For example, Germania anno zero would then be credited to Rossellini-Amidei rather than simply to Rossellini.

There is an interesting variation on this idea with Rossellini's tv history movies, where Rossellini didn't give a damn what anyone said on camera (they could count numbers if they wanted), and the entire voice track of each movie was 100% dependent on the local dubbing director (and voices): so that not only are voices and words different in the French and Italian editions of Socrate, but the characters themselves change accordingly. Rossellini hated the dubbing process and didn't go near it; he had nothing directly to do with the voice tracks of these movies. BUT in the case of Socrate the French had imposed French actors in the major roles and then these actors dubbed themselves (ditto for Acts of the Apostles; ditto for Pascal in Pascal but his sister spoke Italian), and therefore one might argue that Rossellini's direction of them during the shooting would surely have carried over into their dubbing.

Of course I want the sound and intangible meaning of the original voices. I am merely adding that I think the vast majority of audiences get much closer to the characters dubbed into the audience's own language than they do with subtitles. What is lost aurally is more than compensated for by what is gained visually -- eye and body contact with a character, which is often impossible to have so easily when one is trying to read subtitles (and most people can't read fast enough). I doubt that either Citizen Kane or Gone with the Wind ever existed with Italian subtitles, because Italians "never" subtitle, because they feel they're losing the movie that way. Note that with 5000 movies a week on cable tv in the U.S., only one or two are likely to be subtitled.

The best solution is to learn your movie's language.
Last edited by tag gallagher on Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Roberto Rossellini

#66 Post by Michael Kerpan » Thu Jun 05, 2014 1:42 pm

tag gallagher wrote:The best solution is to learn your movie's language.
We can try -- but unless one is a genius linguist (I've known a few), one is not likely to succeed. ;~}

How many other (great) directors are as indifferent to the _sound_ of the performances as Rossellini? I would think that this would be an important aspect of the creation of films for most directors.

(For example, Supposedly Miyazaki actually did at least some directing of the Japanese voice casts of his animated films).

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Re: Roberto Rossellini

#67 Post by tag gallagher » Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:04 pm

I think the indifference is an Italian cultural phenomenon. (Maybe other countries have similar dispositions, I don't know...) First, given that most Italian actors and directors were hired hands and had little or no power over the final movie, that was an institutional disincentive to try hard. Rare was the film in which a star wasn't dubbed by someone else's voice. Maria Mercador, a big star and DeSica's wife, told me that when she first made pictures in Italy in the 1930s she was horrified to find herself being dubbed (she was Spanish) and quickly set about to learn Italian. But my impression is that it was a rare actor who could impose their voice if the producer preferred another voice. And directing dubbing was tedious work no one was eager to do.
But secondly was the fact that almost every movie Italians saw was dubbed. Mostly they went to see Hollywood movies, and every one of them was dubbed in Italy. Even most Italian movies made in Italy were shot in English, in hope of export sales, and then dubbed into Italian. I've questioned many Italian afficianados how they can stand dubbing and never found one who understood my question. I think the suspension of belief that one bestows on a movie can be extended to having hollow voices disconnected from mouths in motion; it simply doesn't bother them. It OUGHT to. But it doesn't.
I know some of the greatest movie minds in France who grew up with the French dubbing of Renoir's Golden Coach, and can't believe it's not genuine, though Renoir excoriated and cursed and anathematized it. From his perspective, the great fault of the Nouvelle Vague was that they dubbed rather than shot with direct sound. Okay, that's not the same thing as "indifference" -- what Truffaut and Godard did to save money -- but it's indifference to a certain aesthete of acting and cinema (to which, for example, the Straubs clung fanatically).

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Re: Roberto Rossellini

#68 Post by rohmerin » Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:46 pm

Spaniards (and Spanish speakers) can survive in Italian-language from the minute 2 when we hear it. It's very easy!
Fernando Rey sometimes is dubbed, but in 7 beauties He talks with his own voice. Penélope Cruz speaks Italian always. I don't know about Angela Molina or Francisco Rabal, peculiar, beautiful voice in Spanish.

This easiness for learning Italian doesn't include French-language actors, they are always dubbed, except in a case I can remember, Anouk Aimee in Tragedy of a ridiculous man, but she plays a French woman.

Naturally, all non Spanish- speaker actor who have worked into any Spanish film, (Peter Coyote, awfully in Kika; Deneuve, Jean Sorel, Betsy Blair there are more you can imagine… ) are always dubbed in perfect Castillian Spanish.

Silvana Mangano, Claudia Cardinale and Franco Nero in the most of their films are dubbed by other Italians.

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Re: Roberto Rossellini

#69 Post by Saimo » Thu Jun 04, 2015 12:29 pm

An Interview with Roberto Rossellini (1965) by Adriano Aprà and Maurizio Ponzi.
http://www.adrianoapra.it/?p=1320" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Roberto Rossellini

#70 Post by tag gallagher » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:40 pm

Video Dimensions has issued a dvd of the Italian edition of JOAN AT THE STAKE -- same video as the Italian disc. Alas, their subtitles betray Rossellini and Claudel. One example:
Joan says:
in French: Je vais. J'irai. Je suis allée.
in Italian: Vado. Andro. Sono andata.

Which I translate: I'm going. I shall go. I went.
Which Video Dimensions translates: I'm going. I will go. I'm leaving.

The point here is the confusion of tenses. She lives in an eternal return. Everything's jumbled. Video Dimensions' subtitles turn one of Claudel's inspired moments into a stupid platitude.

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Re: Roberto Rossellini

#71 Post by ellipsis7 » Mon Aug 03, 2015 12:57 pm

Strictly...

Vado - I go
Sto andando - I am going
Sono andata - I have gone/I went

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Re: Roberto Rossellini

#72 Post by Stefan Andersson » Fri Jan 15, 2016 5:11 pm

Variant endings, Stromboli, Fear etc.
http://www.bfi.org.uk/news-opinion/sigh ... variations" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Roberto Rossellini

#73 Post by TMDaines » Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:31 am

So the town we're staying in for 11 nights in a week's time is only Maiori where Rossellini shot four of his films, at least in part. Anyone been to the town and know whether there are landmarks or plaques recognising this?

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Re: Roberto Rossellini

#74 Post by hearthesilence » Mon Jan 29, 2018 4:15 pm

Anthology Film Archives is screening a 35mm print of India: Matri Bhumi as part of a series called 'Documentarists for a Day.' Apparently this film has been unavailable on DVD/BD and streaming in the U.S. for quite some time.

Unfortunately they will be screening the shorter Italian version, which is supposedly inferior, but better than nothing. I heard the one to see is the restored French version, which is harder to obtain. At one point only one un-subtitled print of the French version survived, and Tag Gallagher himself actually translated a set of subtitles for it, though I have no idea if these are commonly used.

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Re: Roberto Rossellini

#75 Post by tag gallagher » Tue Jan 30, 2018 10:15 am

Jean-Luc Godard wrote: "India is the creation of the world."

The French version of Rossellini's India Matri Bhumi came first, with superior text but identical video as the later Italian version -- until the Italians "restored" it by chopping off the last two minutes plus various shots inside, and then disguising this and, when pressed, blaming it on Rossellini. A lie! It ought to be a scandal, but no one gives a damn, particularly Criterion which keeps streaming the aborted Italian version on MUBI. I have "restored" both versions completey, restoring the color as best I can, shot by shot, and providing separate subtitles for each version. Here is an mkv of the French version, with subtitles:

https://1fichier.com/?sbajt7ze81

And here is a vid I made about the movie: https://1fichier.com/?5iqiz0rznr

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