Criterion 10th Anniversary DVD Awards - Yes or No?

Message

GringoTex · #1 Post by **GringoTex** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:46 pm

2007 was the tenth year that Criterion has been releasing dvds. I thought it might be interesting to celebrate with a poll for the best all-time Criterion dvds. We would keep the same categories as the annual poll, although I think we should add a best non-boxset category.

Anybody interested?

#2 Post by **domino harvey** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:50 pm

History has taught us that we love nothing more than a list, I see no reason to stop now. I'm in, though we really should make a Best Cover and Best Packaging distinction, because especially when considering the entire catalog, they're not the same thing.

denti alligator · #3 Post by **denti alligator** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:55 pm

Can we submit a list of 10 favorites instead of 5? And tally these like in the lists project? That would make for an interesting list, actually.

Edit: something like this, which would make the tallying of votes mor difficult, but would make for a more varied and interesting list.

Best Releases 1997-2007 (ranked 1-10)
Best Box Sets (ranked 1-5)
Best Reissues (ranked 1-3)
Most Disappointing Releases (ranked 1-3)
Best Commentary (ranked 1-5)
Best Single Supplement (not a commentary) (ranked 1-5)
Best Package Design (ranked 1-5)
Best Cover Art (ranked 1-10)
Best Surprise (ranked 1-3)

Or maybe these should be
Favorite Releases
Favorite Box Sets

I may think that the Seven Samurai reissue is one of their best releases, but it's certainly not one of my favorites.

Tribe · #4 Post by **Tribe** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:04 pm

Do it...ala Denti. It must be done.

Tribe

#5 Post by **domino harvey** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:07 pm

I couldn't have done it better, go with the Alligator's system

EDIT: Though as with the year-end tallies, I can't help but think the "Best Supplement" category is always flawed: there are simply SO MANY supplements that any three people agreeing on one rockets it to the top. Outside of someone spending an afternoon crafting an arbitrary list of 100 available supplements and choosing from that list, I can't ever imagine this category being representative of anything. There doesn't seem to be a way to make it democratic and yet still relevant. But that's my only caveat really.

GringoTex · #6 Post by **GringoTex** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:10 pm

denti alligator wrote:Best Releases 1997-2007 (ranked 1-10)
Best Box Sets (ranked 1-5)
Best Reissues (ranked 1-3)
Most Disappointing Releases (ranked 1-3)
Best Commentary (ranked 1-5)
Best Single Supplement (not a commentary) (ranked 1-5)
Best Package Design (ranked 1-5)
Best Cover Art (ranked 1-10)
Best Surprise (ranked 1-3)

I like this and I think we should add:

Best Non-Boxset Release (ranked 1-5)

That way all the quality single film releases won't be ignored in favor of the boxsets.

denti alligator · #7 Post by **denti alligator** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:22 pm

GringoTex wrote:
denti alligator wrote:Best Releases 1997-2007 (ranked 1-10)
Best Box Sets (ranked 1-5)
Best Reissues (ranked 1-3)
Most Disappointing Releases (ranked 1-3)
Best Commentary (ranked 1-5)
Best Single Supplement (not a commentary) (ranked 1-5)
Best Package Design (ranked 1-5)
Best Cover Art (ranked 1-10)
Best Surprise (ranked 1-3)
I like this and I think we should add:

Best Non-Boxset Release (ranked 1-5)

That way all the quality single film releases won't be ignored in favor of the boxsets.

Yes, but then perhaps we should lose the favorite release category altogether. I mean if my 10 favorite releases are (they aren't, I'm just giving an example):

1. Cassavetes box
2. Fanny & Alexander
3. Le Trou
4. 39 Steps
5. Sweet Movie
6. Border Radio
7. Stage & Spectacle
8. 4x Varda
9. Bernard Eclipse set
10. Red Beard

then my top 5 box sets will obviously be:
1. Cassavetes box
2. Fanny & Alexander
3. Stage & Spectacle
4. 4x Varda
5. Bernard

and my top non-box sets will be:
1. Le Trou
2. 39 Steps
3. Sweet Movie
4. Border Radio
5. Red Beard

How does that make for interesting voting?
Is there a way around this?

arsonfilms · #8 Post by **arsonfilms** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:24 pm

GringoTex wrote:
denti alligator wrote: Best Releases 1997-2007 (ranked 1-10)
Best Box Sets (ranked 1-5)
Best Reissues (ranked 1-3)
Most Disappointing Releases (ranked 1-3)
Best Commentary (ranked 1-5)
Best Single Supplement (not a commentary) (ranked 1-5)
Best Package Design (ranked 1-5)
Best Cover Art (ranked 1-10)
Best Surprise (ranked 1-3)
I like this and I think we should add:

Best Non-Boxset Release (ranked 1-5)

That way all the quality single film releases won't be ignored in favor of the boxsets.

That could be interesting, and although I'm sure I'll be laughed at for this, we should also clarify up front what constitutes a box set. Fanny and Alexander is a single film with multiple spine numbers and five discs, while Four Masterworks is a repackaged collection of older releases. Meanwhile, The Malle box is set up similarly to the collector's sets, but came out at the same time as the individual releases. Other releases like Lower Depths and Symbiopsychotaxiplasm advertise multiple films, but clearly aren't "boxes." Just a thought. I promise as soon as the writer's strike is over I'll get back to work and quit with this inane minutia.

Also, with the addition of a non-boxset category the top 10 release category should include the word "overall."

denti alligator · #9 Post by **denti alligator** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:28 pm

And since we love to bitch about cover art so much, I say we add:

Worst Cover Art (ranked 1-3)

fiddlesticks · #10 Post by **fiddlesticks** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:29 pm

I think it would be helpful to have a clear definition of "Most Disappointing Release" that we can all abide by and not argue about afterward. Or split it into two categories: "Most Sucky Feature" and "Most Flawed Release"?

GringoTex · #11 Post by **GringoTex** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:31 pm

denti alligator wrote:How does that make for interesting voting?
Is there a way around this?

Top 5 Boxsets and Top 10 Single film releases?

Also, is there a point to the Best Rissue category in an all-time list?

thethirdman · #12 Post by **thethirdman** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:42 pm

fiddlesticks wrote:I think it would be helpful to have a clear definition of "Most Disappointing Release" that we can all abide by and not argue about afterward. Or split it into two categories: "Most Sucky Feature" and "Most Flawed Release"?

I agree. That is my only issue with the proposed categories.

#13 Post by **zedz** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:07 pm

My tuppence:

Make the 'Best Belease' 1-10 'Best Non-Box Set Release' instead, to keep things tidy. We lose out on an overall winner but gain in voting clarity. If we still want to have an overall winner, we could add a single-vote 'All-Time Favourite Criterion Release' (the subtle distinction between 'Best' and 'Favourite' is deliberate).

Split 'Most Disappointing Release' into 'Most Disappointing Package' (or 'Worst Missed Opportunity') and 'Worst Film' (regardless of the package). The two always tend to get confused in the year-end lists, so let's go for clarity (and allow those who so wish to vent their outrage at whatever).

And I'm assuming that the Eclipse releases all qualify for the best Box-Set category.

I don't think the Best Surprise category is really going to work in this context (and it's problematic anyway), since an unknown film released by Criterion five years ago is likely to be much less unknown by virtue of its 'Criterionization' to somebody who came to the collection in 2006.

denti alligator · #14 Post by **denti alligator** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:11 pm

Alright, let's try this:

All-Time Favorite Criterion Release (ranked 1-5)
Best Non-box Set Release (ranked 1-10)
Best Box Sets (ranked 1-5)
Most Disappointing Package (ranked 1-3)
Worst Film (ranked 1-3)
Best Commentary (ranked 1-5)
Best Single Supplement (not a commentary) (ranked 1-5)
Best Package Design (ranked 1-5)
Best Cover Art (ranked 1-10)
Worst Cover Art (ranked1-5)

I think it's fair to say that OOP spines should be ineligable for the "Most Disappointing Package" category, since presumably if Criterion had the rights they would reissue some of the shitty transfers (e.g. Woo films) with nice new ones.

So what's still missing? I'm not sure we've avoided the initial problem of "favorite" releases of all and single-film vs box sets. Are we to distinguish between "favorite" and "best"? I won't be.

jbeall · #15 Post by **jbeall** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:17 pm

How about Best Cover Art for each of the three Criterion styles?

denti alligator · #16 Post by **denti alligator** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:19 pm

jbeall wrote:How about Best Cover Art for each of the three Criterion styles?

I think that's going too far, no?

I'm just going to make my "best" lists by answering to myself the question: 'if you could only have 5 Criterion box sets, which would they be?', etc. That means, film and transfer take first priority (meaning, something like Playtime, although a favorite film, might not make it, since the transfer still isn't all that), then the rest (though not insignificant).

fiddlesticks · #17 Post by **fiddlesticks** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:27 pm

Personally, I'd be inclined to dispense with the at least somewhat artificial distinction between box sets and single releases and go with "Best (or Favorite) Feature". Suppose, hypothetically, that I think the best thing Criterion has ever done is Through a Glass Darkly, but I don't particularly care for Winter Light or The Silence. I can't vote for Glass as Best Criterion Release, because the "release" is the trilogy, and I can't vote for it as Best Non-Box Set Release, at least as I understand it. But I could vote for it as Best Feature.

Or am I just picking at nits?

GringoTex · #18 Post by **GringoTex** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:28 pm

denti alligator wrote:Alright, let's try this:

All-Time Favorite Criterion Release (ranked 1-5)
Best Non-box Set Release (ranked 1-10)
Best Box Sets (ranked 1-5)
Most Disappointing Package (ranked 1-3)
Worst Film (ranked 1-3)
Best Commentary (ranked 1-5)
Best Single Supplement (not a commentary) (ranked 1-5)
Best Package Design (ranked 1-5)
Best Cover Art (ranked 1-10)
Worst Cover Art (ranked1-5)

I'd hit that.

denti alligator · #19 Post by **denti alligator** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:32 pm

fiddlesticks wrote:Or am I just picking at nits?

You're picking nits.

See my comments on fav film vs. fave package. You'd have to ask yourself, is the whole package great? does one film make it all worth it? etc.

thethirdman · #20 Post by **thethirdman** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:38 pm

Please define Most Disappointing Package. Does it specifically refer to the lack of supplements, the transfer, or technical flaws (e.g. Mala Noche)?

denti alligator · #21 Post by **denti alligator** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:02 pm

thethirdman wrote:Please define Most Disappointing Package. Does it specifically refer to the lack of supplements, the transfer, or technical flaws (ie. Mala Noche)?

Any of the above, just not the film itself.

I sat down to do this and found it's very, very hard.

First thing to note: my All-Time Favorites are simply my top box set and top 4 non-box set releases, confirming my suspicion that this category isn't going to be all that revealing.

BUT, I ask you: should we vote on the box set and non-box set releases in terms of our own personal favorites or what we feel are the "best" overall releases in these categories? If the former, I say we drop the All-Time Favorite category as being superfluous. On the other hand, if we go with the latter, it's going to be pretty easy to guess which releases will top the box set category (Cassavetes and Rohmer -- no one would dispute, whether or not you like these films, that these sets are mighty impressive).

Therefore--to offer my own answer to my own question--I suggest we stick to providing our own idiosyncratic lists that reflect our own tastes in the films and features we love most. We can keep the All-Time Favorite category, but it won't be anymore than a collated version of the two best-of lists.

Also, on worst film: let's not vote for films we haven't seen, please. That may sound like a stupid thing to say, but I was tempted to choose The Rock and Armageddon, but then realized that I haven't actually seen either film (nor do I really want to). Therefore I won't be voting for either of these, nor for Chasing Amy. If we all agree not to vote for these if we haven't seen them (or if we actually like them), then the final list will be a little less predictable and therefore more interesting.

#22 Post by **zedz** » Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:33 pm

Following on from Denti's comments, Favourites would be more interesting than Bests, and I suspect that's how most people would vote anyway. Personally, I'm not really up for empirical evaluation of DVD releases I may not even care for.

fiddlesticks · #23 Post by **fiddlesticks** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:52 am

denti alligator wrote:Also, on worst film: let's not vote for films we haven't seen, please. That may sound like a stupid thing to say, but I was tempted to choose The Rock and Armageddon, but then realized that I haven't actually seen either film (nor do I really want to). Therefore I won't be voting for either of these, nor for Chasing Amy. If we all agree not to vote for these if we haven't seen them (or if we actually like them), then the final list will be a little less predictable and therefore more interesting.

I intend to employ this stricture to all categories (except, I suppose, the cover art categories); in fact, I'll likely limit my candidates to Criterions I own (there's precious few I've seen and not bought, anyway.) I can't see myself voting for, say, Mr. Arkadin in any category since I've never seen (any version of) it; I'd just be parroting someone else's opinion of it, and where's the fun in that?

Svevan · #24 Post by **Svevan** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:46 am

Following Domino's line of thinking, would it be better to vote for best Special Features (for one movie), as in the extras on Brazil, or the extras on Seven Samurai, instead of a single supplement?

HerrSchreck · #25 Post by **HerrSchreck** » Thu Jan 17, 2008 6:11 am

Thomas J. has so far missed this discussion (the brain reels!)... let us continue to pray for the Staus Quo, Maintained....