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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:24 pm 
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TMDaines wrote:
I don't understand this argument about a strong euro making all French releases prohibitively expensive. How on earth are you exchanging your euros or where are you buying things from? You can currently get both Chabrol Blu-rays for €31.25 shipped to the UK from Amazon.es. That's £25.26. It's a crapshoot as to whether you'll get both MoC's at that price on release or shortly after.

That's useful to know, as I didn't know that Amazon.es handled French titles - but you can see where I'm coming from when you look at the price on Amazon.fr: nearly €40 even before shipping costs are factored in. Which is £32.38, and clearly not competitive with MoC.

(Of course, it's a bit academic in my case, as MoC routinely sends me checkdiscs and Gaumont doesn't...)


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:26 pm 
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TMDaines, there are 60m people in the UK. Neither of these Chabrols have even been released on DVD in the UK over the last 12 years. Do you seriously expect everyone in the UK interested in Chabrol to go and order from amazon.es? Are you going to point them in the right direction?

I think you and tenia are being a little blinkered in your understanding of how a label like MoC operates and who buys their stuff. These particular titles may not be for you – not all of them will be – but there are hundreds (hopefully thousands) of UK folk who will be kicking their heels that these are finally being released domestically.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:30 pm 
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Perhaps some individuals focus just a bit too much on the negative.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:34 pm 
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swo17 wrote:
Even if the titles are cheap and region-free from other countries, having to place an order in a foreign language is an insurmountable barrier for many (yes, even with Google translate).

My immediate reaction to the news that Second Run was moving into Slovak cinema was "why bother, when you can buy English-subtitled editions from Slovakia for an absolute pittance?"

And then I realised that the number of potential UK customers who'd be prepared to brave websites exclusively in Slovak and hand over credit card details was probably in single figures.

So I doubt they're overly worried about the competition.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:47 pm 
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peerpee wrote:
TMDaines, there are 60m people in the UK. Neither of these Chabrols have even been released on DVD in the UK over the last 12 years. Do you seriously expect everyone in the UK interested in Chabrol to go and order from amazon.es? Are you going to point them in the right direction?

Where did I state that I expected everyone - or indeed anyone - to go to Amazon.es and buy them? That's a pretty unfair strawman you just attempted. I was replying to MichaelB directly who was commenting that the price was a major barrier and showing that it isn't at all, and that they may well be cheaper than MoC's own release. MichaelB clearly didn't know about Amazon.es, so I hope that my information was useful, regardless of whether or not he has any interest in the French Chabrols.

As much as many labels like to pretend the opposite, foreign labels are a competitor and they'll become ever more so in the next few years. I give it a few years until Amazon UK starts stocking DVDs from other European countries and uses EU competiton laws to allow them to do so.

peerpee wrote:
I think you and tenia are being a little blinkered in your understanding of how a label like MoC operates and who buys their stuff. These particular titles may not be for you – not all of them will be – but there are hundreds (hopefully thousands) of UK folk who will be kicking their heels that these are finally being released domestically.

I've never denied that, but I'm surely entitled to my own personal opinion though, that these aren't exactly the most exciting releases for myself, a member of the online film community, given there is already two other English-friendly releases out there. I've not really pushed it past that.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:52 pm 
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Michael Kerpan wrote:
Perhaps some individuals focus just a bit too much on the negative.


That's probably because I have been so happy with the whole previous 50 releases. :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 3:55 pm 
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MichaelB wrote:
tenia wrote:
Both Les cousins and Le beau Serge Gaumont's BDs are region free.

RossyG and I are both based in the UK, so this is irrelevant: our point about region coding applied to Criterion BDs.

Our point about French BDs is that they're generally pretty expensive because of the stubbornly strong Euro - it's much cheaper to import from elsewhere at present.


I picked up the pair less than a year ago & was quite happy I did until the Criterion's came out. Amazon.fr has periodic blu ray sales which include Gaumont & Canal titles: Buy 2 get 1 free, spend over E100 and get E50 off (and that's in addition to whatever discount they have on the retail price). I can't remember which I used, but I remember they were much less than $20 per including shipping & were less to import into the US than any of the Canadian titles that are on my wish list.

One thing about the Gaumont titles that I noticed though, there seemed to be instances where there seemed to be a missing frame (ie. someone jumping in position), I had wondered if this was a 50 vs 60 Hz issue (my Panasonic seems to play other region blu-rays fine), so I picked up the Criterions, but I seemed to notice the issue w/ them too. I've been meaning to go back & compare, but just haven't had the time. It sounds like MoC will just be the same transfer, so I don't think I'll triple dip (on Le Beau Serge even though it is a favorite).


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:02 pm 
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swo17 wrote:
Even if the titles are cheap and region-free from other countries, having to place an order in a foreign language is an insurmountable barrier for many (yes, even with Google translate).


I completely understand that, but I would have believed that many of the people interested in the movies released by MoC also follow the international releases of labels whose line ups are close in type to MoC, such as Gaumont, Carlotta and Criterion, with an emphasis on European labels due to them being compatible with the UK BD-players.

After that, of course, I don't expect 95% of the MoC customers going for importing French BDs each time it has english subs and is not released in the UK. I can imagine than a lot of UK people will be happy to see the Chabrols available on BD directly in the UK.

On the other hand, I'm also quite sure the people really interested by the movies would have already looked for getting the Gaumont discs, just like I'm quite sure MoC will have some French customers for the Clouzot because they just won't wait for the Gaumont disc. And I'm also quite sure that the people really interested by these movies are not Average Joes who doesn't know how to use Amazon.

I'm just underwhelmed, as I said in the other topic, by how little work will be done by MoC themselves, which are just basically taking Gaumont discs as they are and tweaking them a bit.

I had the same discussion back when Criterion got the deal with IFC and started to release movies with nothing exclusive to Criterion, which felt as if it was easy money made by easily porting discs done somewhere else.

I just feel the same here.
First time I feel like MoC's line up is just "same ol' same ol'".


Last edited by tenia on Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:12 pm 
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tenia wrote:
I'm just underwhelmed, as I said in the other topic, by how little work will be done by MoC themselves, which are just basically taking Gaumont discs as they are and tweaking them a bit.

Surely that describes the modus operandi for a large number of MoC releases?

Unlike Criterion or the BFI, they very rarely get to work from original film elements: with the occasional high-profile exception like The Passion of Joan of Arc, their budgets simply don't stretch that far.

So it seems to me that the vast majority of MoC releases essentially take existing masters and "tweak them a bit" - but because their tweaking is usually first-rate (at the very least, you can guarantee a superb booklet), this counts for a lot.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:17 pm 
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I think Tenia's gripe (shared by myself) stems from being a genuine MoC enthusiast/completist and it is mildly aggravating to see titles issued by them that are almost identical to editions which glare at you from the Chabrol section of your shelves defying you to flex that credit card again. And so yes, I would have preferred something else.
At the risk of appearing like Tenia's representative on earth I can testify that he has forcefully advocated on other forums that french publishers are equally prone to duplicating readily available UK or US releases and has asked why there isn't more cross region/territory co-operation between companies to pool resources regarding restoration costs, synchronised release dates and maximisation of supplements etc etc.
Is this merely an utopian ideal ? Are rights issues or scheduling problems so prohibitive ?
Perhaps Nick,Michael or Craig could shed some light here as this question does keep on raising its ugly head viz the recent discussion on the New Wave Films thread


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:19 pm 
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I have no particular interest in the Chabrols but I did find importing from France a bit too expensive for my liking since the twats at Amazon France for some reason won't accept my debit card whereas their US & UK & German counterparts happily process my orders, and I've had to order through the French branch of FNAC.

If I was interested in the Chabrols, I'd have very much appreciated the MoC ports for the booklets alone.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:22 pm 
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tenia wrote:
I completely understand that, but I would have believed that many of the people interested in the movies released by MoC also follow the international releases of labels whose line ups are close in type to MoC, such as Gaumont, Carlotta and Criterion, with an emphasis on European labels due to them being compatible with the UK BD-players.


But I believe this is an issue with the argument. I'd argue that many people who are interested in these releases don't follow labels. They follow films, and actors. These companies get to make sales because people remember the movie Sweet Smell of Success or Double Indemnity, they aren't thrilled just that your favorite boutique label is releasing them. The shopper wants X film on blu ray, and Criterion is the company that just so happened to release 8 1/2, Seven Samurai, etc. etc.

Surely a healthy percentage of shoppers follow the labels, but I think the more regions and labels you assume people follow, the bigger of a hole you are digging yourself. I walk into Barnes and Noble and I see The Qaatsi Trilogy and Phantom Carriage or whatever in the new release bin right at the front of the DVD section. That counts for arguably more than making sure people follow the label.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:35 pm 
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erh...EDIT because I didn't realise that another page of replies was following to the post I wanted to reply to. Yes, I too recommend amazon.es, though it doesn't always work.


Last edited by Tommaso on Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:38 pm 
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MichaelB wrote:
Surely that describes the modus operandi for a large number of MoC releases?

Unlike Criterion or the BFI, they very rarely get to work from original film elements: with the occasional high-profile exception like The Passion of Joan of Arc, their budgets simply don't stretch that far.


Not exactly, since most of the time, their releases are HD upgrades. They of course take what's available since, as you mention, they rarely handle / supervise the restoration work themselves, but in this case, the BDs are already available. Again, if the 2 Chabrols would have been only available on DVDs, I wouldn't have started this discussion at all.

But don't misunderstand me either : I feel equally sad, as Nabob wrote, witnessing Criterion or Gaumont or Carlotta releasing stuff already available elsewhere. But here, it's up to the point where the movies are already available in HD (1), region free (2), with the same extras except the booklets (3, but it's not subtitled in english, so OK), and with english subs (4). That gives much less to tweak than the usual.

Drucker wrote:
But I believe this is an issue with the argument. I'd argue that many people who are interested in these releases don't follow labels. They follow films, and actors. These companies get to make sales because people remember the movie Sweet Smell of Success or Double Indemnity, they aren't thrilled just that your favorite boutique label is releasing them. The shopper wants X film on blu ray, and Criterion is the company that just so happened to release 8 1/2, Seven Samurai, etc. etc.


I genuinely follow labels like MoC or Carlotta because I don't know most of the movies they're releasing, but they usually fits my tastes. It's just a huge nice pool of movies to pick in.


Last edited by tenia on Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:41 pm 
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Of course people are "entitled" to their personal opinions about not being excited for this or that release due to what they already own, but can I ask "So what?" Given TMDaines's claims here about negative feedback being helpful or constructive (which I agree that certain kinds can be), I'm wondering if there's a compelling reason to share that particular opinion, or statements that forum member n would rather have seen blu-ray upgrades of films x, y, and z. The need for labels like MoC to release things for their home market is widely acknowledged, and they can't upgrade things in the order which this or that member here would prefer, so what exactly are they supposed to do with that type of feedback? A lot of the valid and potentially constructive complaints here about labels that are making really poor decisions about what they release and how they release it can get drowned out in a near-constant stream of complaints of the "What, no steelbook?" and "Why are they releasing x instead of y?" variety, and most labels probably just tune it all out because there's no chance of satisfying us.
Expecting MoC to announce a line-up that makes us all want to buy every title is holding them to a pretty impossible standard.
Certain kinds of announcement-time complaints have long been a sore spot on the forum because they're so repetitive and underscore the blatant impossibility of making everybody happy with a selection of titles. It seemed like MoC's announcements had generally been spared almost all of the kind of griping that accompanies Criterion's slate of titles most months. If it's spreading to MoC now I can understand the frustration. And I don't think this is a result of wanting only positive feedback or denying anyone their say.
I'm not excited to buy MoC's forthcoming Chabrols myself, but I'm thrilled that we finally have Chabrol discs that actually look great, and if they get released in every country on the map, so much the better. That's just how it works, and I don't think it keeps us from getting more arcane or unexpected releases at the same time.


Last edited by Gregory on Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:48 pm 
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I understand the needs of labels to release movies on their own market.
It's just the first time I feel like MoC are so opportunists on an occasion, which feels like an underwhelming surprise.

After this, of course, it just falls into the "Why can't they just release what I want ?", or, closer, "Why again this movie ?"


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:52 pm 
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tenia wrote:
Again, if the 2 Chabrols would have been only available on DVDs, I wouldn't have started this discussion at all.


This is not a personal swipe at you, tenia, but I think, if the Chabrols had been DVDs only, if anything the complaining from some members would have been even louder than it is already. And Gregory's post is spot-on.

Personally, I feel that if "merely" tweaking titles existing elsewhere in English-friendly editions enables MoC to budget for some genuinely rare titles or world premieres (which they have said are forthcoming in June or thereabouts), more power to them. And again, for what it's worth, I'd rather have a MoC edition even with "just a booklet" over an English-friendly French/German/Italian edition of a film.

PS.: They have done ports before plenty of times on DVD. How is them porting over the Chabrols opportunistic and the Pialat DVDs weren't? When you figure in the Japanese titles and the Clouzot, I find it baffling that MoC are being called opportunistic over 2 out of 7 titles.


Last edited by Finch on Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 4:53 pm 
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I repeat my point about the need for creators of new HD masters to license them to as many territories as possible, in order to recoup their hefty upfront costs.

This apparent notion that only one territory should produce a definitive Blu-ray edition that we can all import is all very well, but it's wildly impractical for all sorts of reasons - not least financial ones.

A project I worked on a few years ago relied on licensing fees from French and American distributors in order to make the package viable at all. And yes, the resulting packages were very similar, and doubtless annoyed people who "follow labels". But I'm afraid that's just tough - it was either that situation or nothing at all from anyone.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:22 pm 
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Finch wrote:
Personally, I feel that if "merely" tweaking titles existing elsewhere in English-friendly editions enables MoC to budget for some genuinely rare titles or world premieres (which they have said are forthcoming in June or thereabouts), more power to them.


Just as Criterion releasing Ben Button can allow them to get money to do wonderful stuff on other titles, and I totally get that. :wink:

Finch wrote:
PS.: They have done ports before plenty of times on DVD. How is them porting over the Chabrols opportunistic and the Pialat DVDs weren't?


I found the Pialat DVDs very opportunistic, but I really started to follow MoC some time after, so that didn't bothered me that much at the time.
But with the Pialat BDs to be released by Gaumont, I wouldn't be surprised by most of them getting released by MoC.

On the other end, it's good to know there is what looks to be a good workflow between MoC and Gaumont. :P

Finch wrote:
When you figure in the Japanese titles and the Clouzot, I find it baffling that MoC are being called opportunistic over 2 out of 7 titles.


I found them opportunistic on one BD out of 50 (Le silence de la mer), but the MoC release ported the MoC exclusive Ginette Vincendeau presentation, and was with a much healthier encoding than the Gaumont.
So 2 out of 7 clearly explodes the score. :wink:
But of course, the announcement of the Japanese titles and the Clouzot are very exciting, as is the upgrade of La notte when Criterion were "having troubles with some materials".

MichaelB wrote:
A project I worked on a few years ago relied on licensing fees from French and American distributors in order to make the package viable at all. And yes, the resulting packages were very similar, and doubtless annoyed people who "follow labels". But I'm afraid that's just tough - it was either that situation or nothing at all from anyone.


On the other end, then, why movies like Kwaidan or 24 eyes, which have been restored and are available in HD, are not released yet in either French, UK or American market ?
It took 2 years for Narayama to be announced in the USA, so I'm wondering (quite honestly, because here, I just don't know what is the norm) : if these new HD masters needs all this money to be viable, how come it's taking so long to be released somewhere ?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:28 pm 
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tenia wrote:
On the other end, it's good to know there is what looks to be a good workflow between MoC and Gaumont. :P
Right, so can we please have those "à la demande" Ophuls films and perhaps some Grémillon with English subs slabbed on them? I'm sure any complaints would stop immediately :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:47 pm 

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Do you guys really have the problem of not having ENOUGH stuff to buy? I relish any announcements that I can cross titles off from.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:06 pm 
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Zot! wrote:
Do you guys really have the problem of not having ENOUGH stuff to buy? I relish any announcements that I can cross titles off from.


I'm quite happy to be able to focus on other titles (especially since I can also not pre-order the few missing MoC BDs I would have since I'm not getting the Chabrols so will miss some anyway).


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:25 pm 
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If the forum is ever able to add an auto-complaint-detection function, this is the message that should appear before any offending post is able to go through:
Gregory (paraphrased) wrote:
I'm wondering if there's a compelling reason to share that particular opinion. Companies can't release things in the order which this or that member here would prefer, so what exactly are they supposed to do with that type of feedback? A lot of the valid and potentially constructive complaints here about labels that are making really poor decisions about what they release and how they release it can get drowned out in a near-constant stream of complaints of the "What, no steelbook?" and "Why are they releasing x instead of y?" variety, and most labels probably just tune it all out because there's no chance of satisfying us. Expecting a company to announce a line-up that makes us all want to buy every title is holding them to a pretty impossible standard.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:30 pm 
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Cover art threads will be excepted, naturally.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 6:37 pm 
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Automatic message for cover art threads wrote:
Your post neglected to use the word "swimminghorses." Are you sure you don't want to edit it to be more topical?


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