Blu-only Releases?

[Caligula]

I can't help but wonder at how the enthusiasm expressed for BD on these pages will translate into sales-figures. I know MoC very much services a niche-market, where the image-quality of its products plays a big role in the determination of eventual sales. The whole thing reminds me somewhat of SACD, although at least you can play most (but not all) of the discs on a regular CD-player. I have a decent SACD-player, BTW (Denon DVD 2900 with surround set-up) and have discs where the improved encoding delivers (with some discs) a discernible difference, but in all honesty there's nothing revolutionary to the improvement. And then, because the quality of a disc is determined by many things other than the encode, I have CD's that sound better than their SACD counterparts (the Hyperion Rachmaninov concerto's with Hough at the piano comes to mind) and vice versa. Therefore, if I had to pick my equipment again, seriously I doubt whether I would spend the extra dosh just to play SACD's.

As with CD's, I believe (perhaps mistakenly) that the true potential of DVD (a younger format) still has to be reached. Re-mastering has made me buy many of the CD's on my shelf a second time, and I have experienced substantial improvement in the sound quality of some of these discs. In the same way I have double-dipped and even triple-dipped because of improved transfers on DVDs.

In my country BD is pretty much a non-event. None of my friends, and definitely non of my cineaste friends, own a BD-player and certainly no-one in my circle is discussing the possibility of acquiring one. The local DVD rental shops do not even stock BD's. I derive quite some joy out of giving out DVDs to friends and family so that they may enjoy (some of) the films I have on my shelf; with BD that's just impossible.

I'm really looking forward to a MoC City Girl on DVD. I did not buy the R1 Murnau/Borzage set - there were too many films that I either already had or were not interested in. The negative feedback from some quarters about the packaging was the final straw. I have had my share of hassles with crappy packaging (MGM Hitchcock set) and the effort of having to send something back to the States/wherever to get a refund (which is why I won't be investing in the new Sony/Columbia Miles Davis set).

I do look at Gary's screencomparisons between SD & BD's quite frequently and have to confess that I have not seen anything which makes me wildly excited for the new medium. The improvement is (for me, anyway) too marginal.

Yes, the figures may show that many households own BD-players (usually by way of Playstations) but would these households have acquired them otherwise? We bought CD-players and DVD-players for obvious reasons: sound and video quality (on even entry-level equipment) were vastly improved and the new formats brought incredible convenience in navigating through material. The new format (for me) just does not have that "Wow"-factor and hence I do not see myself investing in a BD-player.

I dearly hope MoC will issue City Girl as a standard DVD.

Sorry if I rambled a bit - my two pennies worth.

Edit: Just to clarify: at the high cost of the Borzage/Murnau set and the high likelihood that with the dicey packaging the set would end up in a mess at my front door after having had to travel halfway around the world, buying the BFI Borzage sets, as well as the MoC Sunrise and (hopefully) the MoC City Girl is an alternative that I can live with, for now.

[tajmahal]

Having only recently upgraded to blu-ray, the thought of all future MOC titles in hi-def is most pleasing. Criterion's recent dvd releases of films like Z and Eddie Coyle are a good example of the dilemma facing 'niche' distributors. Would they have lost more sales releasing a blu only edition, or did they lose a significant number of sales with punters holding out for the upgraded edition?

another option, Nick, is if you look at cheaper, direct port 'Eclipse -style dvd releases (as you canvassed with the Naruse discussion a few weeks back) for more obscure, and thus risky releases, to supplement an all blu-ray mainline schedule. That would certainly open up all sorts of possibilites for future releases. As an example, one of my most treasured sets is the Eclipse Late Ozu box. I know the films could look much better, and I know I would jump all over blu editions, but the fact I can get my hands on a barebones, reasonably priced collection at all, is very much appreciated.

[doc mccoy]

Nick,

I say go for Blu-ray as the films should be seen in their best possible condition, but I would ask you to consider a few things:

(1) Is Blu-ray definitely here to stay for a while, like VHS and DVD and not like Betamax and Laserdisc? You know the statistics - if Blu-ray is getting a proper foothold in the market, enough to challenge DVD and read its last rites, then opt for Blu-ray. If not, stick with DVD only.
(2) Consider whether there is any possible format that might challenge Blu-ray in the future - the last thing you'd want to do is bet everything on a format that might soon be outdated by a new one. For example, digital downloads - is it possible to deliver the high picture and sound quality and supplements in way a Blu-ray would?
(3) I suspect you cannot answer this one, but the best recent basis for comparison would be the Sunrise DVD and Blu-ray. Whichever did and continues to do better, you have your answer about how people like to view their films.

[lubitsch]

As a teacher, DVDs are a big deal because I can bring them into any classroom and know the equipment will match up

Running a university film library I second that. We have Blu-Ray equiment now, but except for one, two cases aren't buying any for multiple reasons like price, lack of other players with the staff and so on. While I can see the idea behind bringing out newer, popular films out on Blu-Ray, I think the smaller arthouse fare is well served with DVDs. I have an extensive DVD collection of mostly older films who will hardly ever get a Blu-Ray update or any special treatment and don't intend to jump on the Blu-Ray bandwagon. The difference between VHS and DVD was very obvious, the difference between DVD and Blu-Ray not sufficient enough to turn around again.
As for CITY GIRL I have the US Fox set and I'm perfectly happy with the picture quality on the DVD. It couldn't be better on TV and I have no desire to project the Blu-Ray picture on the house front of my neighbours in order to look it it's even sharper than on the DVD.

[tenia]

Imo, limiting the release to an HD release is limiting the people that will see the movie.
Cause BR won't change the cost of a BR player (that has to be region-free for French BR and Criterion ones), a nice Full HD TV and a sound system. So, no, I don't think it will encourage a lot of people to change, it will just prevent them to buy and see the movie. And I don't think that it's a good thing.

Plus, as Caligula says, if a lot of people here upgraded, it's not the general case, and I don't think that 20 opinions here can be representative of the market / households generally speaking.

Fact is, I would love to have some figures from non ' big studios "old movies" editors ', like MoC, Criterion, Carlotta, etc, both DVD and BR.
It would be very nice to see all these figures, in order to really see how the market is.

[Tommaso]

As I know that many (and Nick especially) favour Blu exclusively, I would suggest the following as a compromise: if, like with "City Girl", there is an as good alternative on SD anywhere in the English-speaking world, release it as Blu only, if you must. Same goes for the forthcoming "Burmese Harp", for example. Those who won't have Blu for the moment can always buy the CC. But, please, and not least for the reasons outlined by Lubitsch, make things like Epstein, Franju, more Naruse or whatever you have coming that the world (i.e. this forum) has been yearning for for years available on DVD, too. Contrary to other statements here, regionfree Blu players are still pretty expensive here in Germany (around 400 Euros), and I have little intention to invest in such a player without first upgrading my TV set to make real use of it. There are people who simply want to see the films in good quality and with great extras; and who would rather buy 30 new discs than invest in new technology at the moment. I have absolutely no problems with DVD quality if it's decently done.

[foggy eyes]

Speaking as someone who spends a bit of time in a university department too, Blu-ray might as well not exist. It'll be years and years before the dept/lib might think about upgrading any equipment to Blu (classrooms, viewing facilities, etc) - introducing a new format which only a couple of people out of thousands at present (probably not an exaggeration) would be able to support would be insane. Also, video's still prevalent, and students watch their films on YouTube. Nobody gives a shit. And that's just the format - like anybody actually wants to engage with Murnau!?!!

Remember what david hare says about J-P C & Blake Lucas too - so many cinephiles aren't committed to the bells-and-whistles technical side of things. Might as well throw in some of the bloggers you guys now have writing for you - Andy R., D. Cairns, etc.

The market for a Blu-only City Girl is so niche that I really do wonder whether it is strong enough...

Anyway, guess I should say that I would have to agree with Tommaso too - I'm indifferent about this one because it's already out there on a very fine SD. Would probably feel a bit peeved if "locked out"...

[Caligula]

Regardless of my other remarks in my previous post, an issue that could do with some consideration is the one of timing. Worldwide the economy has gone for a loop. The industry which I find myself in functions at 20% of pre-crisis levels (that's turnover, not profit). Indications are that we are in for a very slow recovery. Meanwhile disposable income is a lot less than what it was. Are you sure this is a good time to try & force people to buy new hardware, when all the cons of the new format are going to weigh in for a lot more than the time when we were flush with cash?

[Tommaso]

David, I can very well understand the desire to see "City Girl" in Blu, I would love to see it in the best possible quality, too, one day. I was certainly not arguing that MoC should release it only on DVD (or for that matter, any other upcoming disc), but it seems to be financially difficult to release everything in both formats. Thus my idea to make the question whether there is already an SD alternative one of the decisive factors when it comes to release something on Blu only. But indeed I had momentarily forgotten about the cost of the R1 "City Girl" if you don't care for the Borzage films in the Fox set (on the other hand, everyone should care for them, and it's still one of the greatest sets ever released by anyone). So perhaps in this case a release on both formats would be best, at least for the customers (though probably not for MoC). Or perhaps back to the old idea of producing one combined SD/Blu set, at least for "City Girl"?

And I keep forgetting a nice little new Blu Ray player isn't as cheap in most of Europe for instance as it is here, or the States or the UK, nor as easy to get down to the region free modding. .

The last bit is the problem, and it seems rather inexplicable to me. Unmodified Blu players can be had at a reasonable price, but region-free ones are unduly expensive and indeed hard to find here. I know of exactly one German e-tailer who offers them (the same one that was among the first to have region-free DVD players many years ago). Perhaps the situation will change in the next year, but should I decide to go Blu (if only to save money on double-dipping later) there's no question I want to watch CC's "Lola Montes" and hopefully "The Red Shoes" with it. MoC's and the BFI's region-free ethics are great, but they of course only help those NOT in Europe.

And yes, sadly I also have to agree with Caligula's last post.

[accatone]

I am with Lubitsch and the others who do not feel the significant difference between SD and BR - i also have no interest in projecting my discs on some neighbours walls but prefer going to the real movies instead.... Its not that i could not afford the technical upgrade - i just do not care that much on the technical side once a good representation is available (DVD). Most of my friends/cinephiles are indeed (and thank god) quite the opposide to the "average" high tech/computer/internet nerd and none of them owns a blu ray player yet. The people here that are on Blue are the ones who watch pay tv football, blockbusters and of course play video games… (no pun intended - just my observations). So if MoC or another company is going Blue only i would just not be able to play/buy the product - and have to wait - as it was back in the days (not too bad in my opinion!). But then i think i fall out of the crazy collectors/high tech grid anyway…

[tenia]

As I know that many (and Nick especially) favour Blu exclusively, I would suggest the following as a compromise: if, like with "City Girl", there is an as good alternative on SD anywhere in the English-speaking world, release it as Blu only, if you must. Same goes for the forthcoming "Burmese Harp", for example. Those who won't have Blu for the moment can always buy the CC. But, please, and not least for the reasons outlined by Lubitsch, make things like Epstein, Franju, more Naruse or whatever you have coming that the world (i.e. this forum) has been yearning for for years available on DVD, too. Contrary to other statements here, regionfree Blu players are still pretty expensive here in Germany (around 400 Euros), and I have little intention to invest in such a player without first upgrading my TV set to make real use of it. There are people who simply want to see the films in good quality and with great extras; and who would rather buy 30 new discs than invest in new technology at the moment. I have absolutely no problems with DVD quality if it's decently done.

That's exactly my feeling about all this. If there is already a good DVD, then only release the BR. Otherwise, it's limiting the visibility of the movie.

Moreover, as you and david hare pointed out, the price of the technology is a real issue.
How much for a nice region-free player, a nice Full HD screen and a sound system ? I'd rather buy 100 DVDs with that money. Even if I know that the Sunrise BR is amazing.

I was also wondering about the "so niche" BR of City Girl. I would firstly think "niche + niche = so niche". But in fact, it's more than "do the niche already upgraded majoritarely or not ?"
Basically, if more than 50% of the usual MoC buyers already upgraded, of course, it's very few people, but it's more than half of MoC market. So, it's strong, indeed.
But, does MoC want to keep on expanding their buyers with a large visibility (ie DVD + BR) or just stay with the usual ones (and even throw away some), that's an other issue.
If 50% of the buyers still didn't upgrade, I don't think they will be very happy to have to put a lot of money just for this release. So probably most of them won't, and won't be able to see the movie. Cause, they won't either put $200 in the Fox boxset just to compensate the City Girl MoC.

In France, Carlotta and MK2 tried (with Fellini's Casanova and Sympathy for the Devil for Carlotta, and Les 400 Coups for Mk2). It was so much of a flop they basically held their HD release since (it's been now about 2 years I think).

But in the UK and the US, 'catalogue movies' in HD from specialized editors seem to have a much bigger market than we have. So I really understand the concerns of MoC, and all the buyers and money in the game.

But I don't know what was the first strategy for Criterion with the rerelease of Howard Ends only in BR, but they had to make a step backward, and now the SD release is on the way.
Maybe it's a sign.

[Cinetwist]

I am with Lubitsch and the others who do not feel the significant difference between SD and BR - i also have no interest in projecting my discs on some neighbours walls but prefer going to the real movies instead.... Its not that i could not afford the technical upgrade - i just do not care that much on the technical side once a good representation is available (DVD). Most of my friends/cinephiles are indeed (and thank god) quite the opposide to the "average" high tech/computer/internet nerd and none of them owns a blu ray player yet. The people here that are on Blue are the ones who watch pay tv football, blockbusters and of course play video games… (no pun intended - just my observations). So if MoC or another company is going Blue only i would just not be able to play/buy the product - and have to wait - as it was back in the days (not too bad in my opinion!). But then i think i fall out of the crazy collectors/high tech grid anyway…

This is complete nonsense. I've gone blu and have never watched 'pay tv football' in my life, don't watch 'blockbusters' and don't play videogames. You are aware that there is some seriously esoteric and worthwhile stuff being released on blu-ray? There are things to be watched other than 300 and Transformers 2. I don't even understand the reference about watching films on neighbours walls, and I think we can all agree that going to the 'real' movies is the best option, but when was the last time your local cinema showed the sort of films released by MoC?

[accatone]

I am fortunate to live in a city where these films are shown. And if i want to see something special/out of town i do what every cultural interested person does - go on a trip, maybe over a week end mixing this with parties, meeting friends whatever… I was just responding to the initial question and throwed in my cents/personal observations that are indeed football, computer and blockbusters (probably projected onto a wall). I am fully aware that i am technically re-actionary here - but hey, i always found "high tech nerds" uncool and will do so forever

[peerpee]

We'll have to take with a pinch of salt all those harping on about how they can't see the difference between DVD and Blu-ray. We aim to do something about this, we think the industry has done a terrible job of explaining the format so far.

[Michael Kerpan]

If one buys a bargain Blu-Ray player now, one can watch BRDs as if they were plain old DVDs -- until one gets a chance to do a TV upgrade. As long as the BR version costs around the same, why not buy with an eye to the future?

Not everyone can find region-free (and affordable) BR players (at least in the US), so Region B BRDs would not be useful to me personally. (I would consider buying a nice cheap Region B player, but these don't seem to be available on this side of the Atlantic).

(I simply don't understand the claim that there is no real difference between BRDs and DVDs -- unless someone is doing a comparison using a non-HD TV).

[Peacock]

I think if we could see more comparison pictures between Blu and DVD - BUT THE SAME SIZE it would be much be easier to go 'well this one is substantially better.'

I've found a region free Panasonic blu player on amazon for £200 so will probably spring on that in 2010. It's exciting to hear that the people who don't notice a difference are those without players, whilst those who do have them, say there is a big difference - makes me want one even more!

[Particle Zoo]

I find it interesting that people can be obsessed with film and yet claim not to care about the 'technical side of things'. Film is, after all, a visual and aural medium and the way we experience it can often be crucial to our reaction to it. I, for one, never got 'Pierrot Le Fou' until I saw Criterion's Blu and my love of 'Sunrise' has increased diametrically from MOC's DVD to Blu Ray editions. I've said it before, screen captures do not show the true upgrade from DVD to Blu. I know some people can't afford to upgrade at the moment, but things would never move forward if we waited for everyone.
So anyway, I vote go Blu MOC.
Ps: I am neither a nerd, a football fan or a blockbuster watcher. Just someone who is interested the technical asthetics of the appreciation of art in all mediums.

[TMDaines]

We'll have to take with a pinch of salt all those harping on about how they can't see the difference between DVD and Blu-ray. We aim to do something about this, we think the industry has done a terrible job of explaining the format so far.

I don't think it's that they can't see the difference, but for me at least the jump from DVD -> BD isn't as significant as VHS -> DVD. Essentially all you are getting when jumping from DVD to Blu is a higher quality picture and higher quality of audio. When jumping from VHS to DVD it was revolutionary as there were numerous other new benefits.

I'd love to be HD and Blu-ray enabled but the cost of an HD TV and a region free Blu-ray player doesn't make the jump worth it yet in my opinion. Although despite saying that I'm tempted to purchase a cheap Tevion Blu-ray player from Aldi and to watch them on my PC monitor as a stop-gap solution.

[Finch]

But, please, and not least for the reasons outlined by Lubitsch, make things like Epstein, Franju, more Naruse or whatever you have coming that the world (i.e. this forum) has been yearning for for years available on DVD, too. (..) There are people who simply want to see the films in good quality and with great extras; and who would rather buy 30 new discs than invest in new technology at the moment. I have absolutely no problems with DVD quality if it's decently done.

I heartily second that. I have a 50 inch HDTV plasma and would definitely benefit from Blu but I will be getting married to my US partner this Christmas and other than the wedding costs, he and I have got big plans for redecorating the flat when he has moved here, and he can't get a job until his settlement visa is sorted out so I'm going to have be able to cover us both financially until that happens. So for me, DVD will remain the format of choice for at least another year. I agree with Nick that the industry has been crap at selling Blu to date but I also have to say that my honest-to-God reaction to having seen some films on Blu has been: it does look great and much smoother and three-dimensional in the best cases but all the same I'm not all that crazy about the improvements. I acknowledge and appreciate they are there but it still elicits a somewhat indifferent response from me. But I don't mean to say that I couldn't be swayed to convert to Blu in 12 months' time. So to recap: at least release the likes of Naruse on DVD still. I wasn't interested in City Girl but feel for those who can't/don't want to upgrade to Blu and can't splash out for the Murnau/Borzage set either. But in this sort of thing, you can't please everyone.

[tenia]

We'll have to take with a pinch of salt all those harping on about how they can't see the difference between DVD and Blu-ray. We aim to do something about this, we think the industry has done a terrible job of explaining the format so far.

I don't think it's that they can't see the difference, but for me at least the jump from DVD -> BD isn't as significant as VHS -> DVD.

Precisely. When DVD arrived, I craved for upgrading. And I did it within the 3 first years. Here, I just don't crave anything. No Wow factor, like it was for VHS --> DVD.

Plus, I will have to change my TV, buy a $450 region free player from HK, and a $200 sound sytem for hearing the difference.

Sorry, but I prefer to keep my money for discs only.

[accatone]

I, for one, never got 'Pierrot Le Fou' until I saw Criterion's Blu.

And I randomly saw this many many years ago for the first time on a super small tube tv (and missed the first 20min) and after that had to wait years of pain for a second tv screening, taped it on VHS and was the luckiest man alive...then my VHS fucked up, the tape broke, and i had to repeair it with Tesa - life was worth living again. This just for me being "not into the technical part of cinema".... Plus i think its important to not mix up the "technical side" of filmmaking with the world of consumerism ...

[perkizitore]

The cost of an HDTV? TVs are better and most importantly CHEAPER than ever! It's different not having the funds to buy something from saying 'it's not worth it'.

[Cinetwist]

I am fortunate to live in a city where these films are shown. And if i want to see something special/out of town i do what every cultural interested person does - go on a trip, maybe over a week end mixing this with parties, meeting friends whatever… I was just responding to the initial question and throwed in my cents/personal observations that are indeed football, computer and blockbusters (probably projected onto a wall). I am fully aware that i am technically re-actionary here - but hey, i always found "high tech nerds" uncool and will do so forever

Yes, but the majority of people aren't that fortunate. And sorry for nitpicking further but you say you can't afford to go hi-def and then say that you go on special weekend trips just to catch a single film (OK, I've done this too). I'm pretty sure that's not a cheaper option. I'm not a high tech nerd just because I have a blu-ray player and I'm sure that's the same for most of the other people in this thread. I got one because of the sort of material BFI and MoC began to release and because I believe the difference in quality is significant, not because it's a new gadget.

[accatone]

you say you can't afford to go hi-def and then say that you go on special weekend trips just to catch a single film (OK, I've done this too).

Sorry, but i though ti said something like "its not that i am not able to upgrade"…that means i am able to upgrade…fact is, i am not able to write a propper english.

[Highway 61]

We'll have to take with a pinch of salt all those harping on about how they can't see the difference between DVD and Blu-ray. We aim to do something about this, we think the industry has done a terrible job of explaining the format so far.

I think this is key. When Blu-ray discs are done right, they look astonishing. The analogy that BR is to DVD as SACD is to CD is quite false, I think. The leap in quality is much more significant on Blu. And oddly, I think older films look better than newer ones. 300 looks like a videogame whether in standard def or hi def, while MoC's Czech Sunrise and Criterion's 400 Blows look like film. The beauty of the physical medium comes to light on Blu.