56-57 / BD 71 Uwasa no onna & Chikamatsu monogatari

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Jack Phillips
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#26 Post by Jack Phillips » Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:40 am

Sanjuro wrote:$300 dollars better off and with English subtitles??
:lol: At the risk of putting myself forward for the whinger-of-the-year award, allow me to ask what happened with the Tony Rayns intro to Uwasa no Onna. Rayns at one point starts talking about Kinuyo Tanaka, and we are immediately shown, in rapid succession, 3 stills featuring Yoshiko Kuga. Uh, Wrigley-san, were you just testing us to see if we were paying attention?

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Tommaso
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#27 Post by Tommaso » Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:54 am

peerpee wrote:I cannot emphasise how close we were to simply releasing four Mizoguchi films as single releases --- SANSHO DAYU / UGETSU MONOGATARI / CHIKAMATSU MONOGATARI / AKASEN CHITAI.

The fact that in addition we're releasing GION BAYASHI / UWASA NO ONNA / OYU-SAMA / YOKIHI, also with carefully redone English subtitles, has taken a major push from our end: resources, time, and expense. From our perspective, it's a minor miracle.
Yes, and I'm pretty thankful for that! However, it will ensure you a better place in the competition vs the CC versions of "Ugetsu" and "Sansho", and hopefully people will be aware of what they're missing if they don't care for those so-called 'minor' films.

I somehow see Jack Philips' point about perhaps unintentionally fixing the status of the 'main' films by having a more extensive commentary about them in the booklets, but then, most people who buy these releases will have a good understanding of film already and will be able to make up their minds on their own. I don't rate "Gion" lower than "Sansho" just because the latter gets more attention. I can't speak for the two films in this package yet, as my set hasn't arrived yet, but from what I hear around here, there seem to be quite a few people who rate "Uwasa" as high as "Chikamatsu" as well.

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Michael Kerpan
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#28 Post by Michael Kerpan » Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:10 am

My point is not that lots of supplemental info about Uwasa no onna wouldn't be valuable. Clearly the film _deserves_ more attention. However, I suspect MOC does not have the budget to commission extensive original research projects. (In fact, I rather doubt that even Criterion has this kind of money to throw around).

Look at it this way -- by having the film available, in good shape, with subtitles, increases the likelihood that some scholar (or devoted amateur enthusiast) will eventually write something more substantial about the film.
Tommaso wrote:from what I hear around here, there seem to be quite a few people who rate "Uwasa" as high as "Chikamatsu" as well.
As best as I can tell, the English-speaking film world considered Uwasa no onna as holding little or no interest. One would have thought that this would have merited a bit of interest as one third of the triptych that also contained Gion bayashi and Akasen chitai -- but it apparently didn't. This film was always more available in France than oin the US/UK -- but then so were lot of Mizoguchi's "rarer" works.

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#29 Post by otis » Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:47 pm


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#30 Post by sidehacker » Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:18 pm

DVDBeaver review up.

I really couldn't care less about extras. It's always nice to have some historical context and critical input but they'll never be a higher priority than the actual films. In a similar note, I actually like Rayns' commentary on the previous two discs. I don't agree with his evaluation of Gion Bayashi, but I've always thought that critics should be more opinionated on DVD extras. This could be forcing a view on those new to Mizoguchi, but everyone else who realizes that it is only his view and not a fact, can enjoy it despite or as a result of disagreement. Bordwell/Carney duel commentary!

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Michael Kerpan
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#31 Post by Michael Kerpan » Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:53 pm

Sumako is one of my favorites -- and Uwasa no onna is a lot more interesting (to me) than lots of better known Mizoguchi films. ;~}

Wasn't Uwasa available on video in France -- at one point?

In any event -- the first MOC set looked considerably better (albeit darker) than the two big French sets (which were definitely brightened and contrast boosted -- but were still a big improvement over what had been available before).

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#32 Post by yojimbo1 » Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:16 pm

Michael Kerpan wrote:Wasn't Uwasa available on video in France -- at one point?
According to Bordwell's blog you yourself informed him of the existence of a French dvd of "Woman of Rumor."

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#33 Post by Michael Kerpan » Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:52 pm

yojimbo1 wrote:
Michael Kerpan wrote:Wasn't Uwasa available on video in France -- at one point?
According to Bordwell's blog you yourself informed him of the existence of a French dvd of "Woman of Rumor."
I must have been thinking of a DVD copy of a subbed video or TV broadcast. ;~}

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#34 Post by Michael Kerpan » Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:14 am

davidhare wrote:As you know I kept collecting everything from France but this title never Turned up - least far as I know
I've seen so many weird versions of Mizoguchi's films (in order to be able to see them all -- except for the one I'm still missing) that I sometimes get confused as to the circumstances. ;~}

My weirdest off-TV version is not a Mizoguchi film, however, but a Naruse film -- a Hebrew-subbed version from Israeli TV.

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#35 Post by Michael Kerpan » Sun Mar 02, 2008 4:36 pm

My set arrived yesterday -- and I watched Uwasa no onna. Strange to see this for the first time with English subtitles -- and happy to discover that I had understood pretty much everything (in terms of dialog). I really enjoy watching this film -- possibly because it shows so many traces of Naruse and Ozu (especially the former) -- and because it has more humorous touches than usual.

One interesting socio-historical issue. Commentaries on this film have differed over the issue of whether Tanaka is running a brothel or a geisha house. I had always assumed it was simply a very dodgy geisha operation (that allowed -- or even expected -- lots of extracurricular activity).

The English subtitles here mention geisha but also uses the term brothel for the business being run. I note that, while some of the young workers dress as geisha -- others dress as oiran (high class prostitutes that were, for all practical purposes, no longer existed by 1800). There are still oiran re-enacters (not prostitutes but basically actresses) who maintain the customs and dress (etc.) of historical oiran -- but somehow I didn't get the feeling that any of Tanaka's girls were supposed to be chaste historical artifacts.

Although Americans are invisible in this film, one wonders whether (in real life) the main function of a place like the business one sees in UNO would have been to serve gullible American troops (and business people) who would have paid extra for faux geisha and oiran.

Addendum -- Chikamatsu monogatari also looks pretty wonderful. Despite Tony Rayn's annoyingly dismissive "introduction", this remains my favorite Mizoguchi film. Luckily, he is the only displeasing aspect of this MOC series so far.
Last edited by Michael Kerpan on Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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#36 Post by sidehacker » Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:20 am

I think I mentioned before, but I sort of like Rayns' comments, in spite of or perhaps a result of completely disagreeing with him. They do feel a little out of place, though. "Thanks for buying the DVD....but you probably will be disappointed."

Chikamatsu Monogatari and Gion Bayashi are two of my very favorite Mizoguchi films in any case. (Right up there with Sisters of the Gion and Sumako the Actress.)

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#37 Post by Rowan » Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:03 am

His Ugetsu commentary is rapturously engaged compared to the wearied intros to Sansho and Gion. The MOC set was my first time with both films and Rayns comments really put me on a downer going in. It’s not just Gion that gets a bum rap either. His account of Sansho is as drab as you could hope for - self-consciously reductive, without insight or any sensitivity to the film’s actual qualities.

Can’t wait to get this new set though. I’ve loved all the Mizoguchi I’ve seen so far - but especially Oharu (does anyone know if the French or even Toho versions are an improvement on the AE?). I think I’ll use Tony’s comments to bring me back down to earth AFTER this time ..if it feels appropriate!

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#38 Post by Sanjuro » Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:21 am

davidhare wrote:The French (Gaumont) version looks like it was taken from the same crap print as the AE. I have had four versions of OHaru - Connoisseur VHS, Criterion Laser, AE and the Gaumont. They're all bad.

I find it staggering this relatively recent Mizo (in Mizo terms at least) used to circulate in perfectly wonderful 35 and 16 prints twenty years ago. Not any more it seems. It's slightly superior to the second most recent (also Gaumont) Mizo box of 40s pictures. The common thread to all of course is fucking Shochiku.
Aren't Oharu and Uwasa by Toho and Daiei respectively? Or are Shochiku involved in a more sinister way?

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#39 Post by peerpee » Wed Mar 05, 2008 2:39 am

YUKI FUJIN EZU (1950), MUSASHINO FUJIN (1951) and the marvellous SAIKAKU ICHIDAI ONNA (1952) are the stray Shintoho Mizoguchi releases.

It should be possible to do solid new HD telecines of these, and Toho did a nice job with their similar-era Naruse titles. I can't imagine we've got a TOKYO STORY / lost negative situation here.

As the latter two are tied up with Artificial Eye in the UK, I've been hoping that Criterion might show up soon with SAIKAKU ICHIDAI ONNA... It would be a massive treat.

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#40 Post by Michael Kerpan » Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:07 am

peerpee wrote:YUKI FUJIN EZU (1950), MUSASHINO FUJIN (1951) and the marvellous SAIKAKU ICHIDAI ONNA (1952) are the stray Shintoho Mizoguchi releases..
Shintoho did not do nearly so well at film preservation as Toho, alas.

The Japanese DVD of Yuki fujin ezu (Portrait of Madame Yuki) is pretty nice looking.. I don't seem to have any screen shots at hand, however.

Any hope MOC can get this (if the other Mizo sets do well)..

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Tommaso
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#41 Post by Tommaso » Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:58 am

Got my set now and started with "Uwasa". Not exactly major, but certainly worth seeing, though it struck me as somewhat unusual due to what I felt was a pretty great detachment and 'objectivity' of perspective, more than in the (few) other films I've seen from Mizoguchi. That, however, might not be a shortcoming, especially as Mizoguchi manages so nicely to contrast the two conflicting 'word-views'. Great use of very modern sounding music on the soundtrack, for example, especially in contrast to what we hear during the theatre performances. I also loved that shot of the daughter sitting in her room with modern day radio on the board, it's such a simple device of showing the difference between the old and the new, apart from her westernized dressing and hair style (she reminded me a lot of a Japanese Audrey Hepburn, I wonder whether that was intentional). Due to the detachment, the few directly emotional moments hit harder. I was mightily impressed by the scene where Usugemo has her first breakdown due to her illness.
I wonder how much this was influenced by western filmmaking in general. Curiously, I had to think of Italian neorealism or early Antonioni in places. The somewhat melodramatic ending, which didn't convince me at all, may not necessarily be a contradiction to this...

As almost always with MoC, I was amazed how fine this transfer is, and how filmlike it looks. Truly great work, Peerpee. I also have no problem with Rayns, I found the bits of background info quite interesting, especially about the relationship of Mizo and Tanaka and their falling out. Sadly, he doesn't say a lot about the film itself, though. My sole little complaint, pertaining not only to this disc: would it be possible to make the subs a little smaller in the future? Not that they're terribly intrusive, but they take up more of the image than I think is necessary to be able to read them well (CC's are usually much smaller).

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#42 Post by Michael Kerpan » Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:59 am

Some of us with aging eyes really appreciate the size of the sub-titles on these releases. ;~}

It really is too bad that there isn't a way to let users adjust the size of subtitles,

Rayns' introduction to Uwasa is not nearly so aggravating (to me) as that to Chikamatsu monogatari. It might have been nice for him to mention that while Mizoguchi was doing his best to undermine Tanaka's directing career, Ozu was expending a considerable amount of time and effort to convince the Director's Guild to support Tanaka.

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#43 Post by peerpee » Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:46 am

User-definable subtitles, with alterable size and position, with a beautiful Mac OS X-like user interface would have been a far better feature of Blu-ray than the ability to have transparent overlays, or picture-in-picture director commentaries.

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Tommaso
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#44 Post by Tommaso » Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:52 am

Michael Kerpan wrote:Some of us with aging eyes really appreciate the size of the sub-titles on these releases. ;~}
Hey, you must be talking about me. As I normally watch without my lenses in, I tend to sit rather close to the screen in order to really see the details of the image so that the subs appear rather big. Shorted-sighted people like me, btw, have usually far less difficulties to read small print text...
But indeed, it would be a great treat if the size and the colour(!!) of subs could be changed by the user. Should be possible technically if they're not burnt-in..

Okay, I think I'll watch "Chikamatsu" in the next few days, and hope Mr. Rayns will not distract me from it. But I generally watch the intros after the film, anyway.

Michael Kerpan wrote: while Mizoguchi was doing his best to undermine Tanaka's directing career, Ozu was expending a considerable amount of time and effort to convince the Director's Guild to support Tanaka.
Yes, that's a curious story in any case. Did you see any of her films, btw? Would be interesting to know whether Ozu or Mizo was right in the end.

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#45 Post by Michael Kerpan » Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:36 am

Tommaso wrote:Yes, that's a curious story in any case. Did you see any of her films, btw? Would be interesting to know whether Ozu or Mizo was right in the end.
Here's some comments and pictures on Tanaka's first film:

http://rozmon.blogspot.com/2007/05/watc ... -2007.html

This was written by Kinoshita -- and this is part of the films problem. Her second film used an Ozu script -- but I have yet to see this.

Imamura, who served as an assistant director for some of Tanaka's films said he was surprised to find that she really knew what she was doing (unlike other stars who took a couple of shots at directing).

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#46 Post by Jack Phillips » Fri Mar 07, 2008 11:42 am

Tommaso wrote: The somewhat melodramatic ending, which didn't convince me at all . . .
Not melodramatic so much as the abandonment of dramatic pretense in order to place in a character's mouth the filmmaker's message ("How much longer must young women" etc.). Something similar happens at the end of Osaka Elegy. This seems to me an occasional failing of Mizoguchi's, as if he didn't trust his audience to pick up on his themes.

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#47 Post by Michael Kerpan » Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:19 pm

Jack Phillips wrote:Not melodramatic so much as the abandonment of dramatic pretense in order to place in a character's mouth the filmmaker's message ("How much longer must young women" etc.). Something similar happens at the end of Osaka Elegy. This seems to me an occasional failing of Mizoguchi's, as if he didn't trust his audience to pick up on his themes.
I think you are right that Mizoguchi (like Kurosawa and unlike Ozu and Naruse) often does not seem to have confidence in his audience's ability come up with the "right answer" without being explicitly told. That said, the line in Uwasa struck me as last jarring than the speech at the end of Sisters of Gion (the end of Osaka Elegy is strictly visual -- Yamada practically walks right into the camera).

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#48 Post by Tommaso » Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:59 pm

Jack Phillips wrote:Not melodramatic so much as the abandonment of dramatic pretense in order to place in a character's mouth the filmmaker's message ("How much longer must young women" etc.). Something similar happens at the end of Osaka Elegy. This seems to me an occasional failing of Mizoguchi's, as if he didn't trust his audience to pick up on his themes.
You're right about this, but actually that was not even what I had in mind. I thought about the whole end of the story:
SpoilerShow
It just seemed plainly unconvincing to me that the daughter basically takes the place of the mother to run that house after all that went on before, that she so easily seems to make the decision to reverse her 'modern' ways after she had even tried to commit suicide after having been slandered and abandoned by her lover precisely because of her mother's profession
That the 'message' is spoken out so directly in the end didn't disturb me too much. After all, as a Kurosawa fan I'm pretty used to it....

Thanks for the Tanaka link, Michael!

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#49 Post by Michael Kerpan » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:47 pm

I think the end of Uwasa is reasonably prepared for. You see the daughter's sympathy for the employees -- and her dawning of understanding that they have few (or no) options. Basically, she is taking on the job in order to try to protect them as best she can (despite still not liking the business they are all in).

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#50 Post by Jack Phillips » Fri Mar 07, 2008 8:39 pm

Michael Kerpan wrote:(the end of Osaka Elegy is strictly visual -- Yamada practically walks right into the camera).
She says something as well. I can't remember what exactly--it's been probably a decade since I saw it--but if I remember correctly she has some comment on her status as a victim, something I would expect to hear from an observer rather than a character.

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