28 Toni

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colinr0380
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#26 Post by colinr0380 » Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:41 pm

Matt wrote:Thanks for reminding me of my favorite Onion "statshot" of all time
Or that episode of King Of The Hill where Bobby decides to dress as Tartuffe for a skit on stage at school!

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Andre Jurieu
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#27 Post by Andre Jurieu » Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:01 pm

colinr0380 wrote:
Matt wrote:Thanks for reminding me of my favorite Onion "statshot" of all time
Or that episode of King Of The Hill where Bobby decides to dress as Tartuffe for a skit on stage at school!
Too funny. Thanks guys. That just made my day.

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Michael Kerpan
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#28 Post by Michael Kerpan » Sat May 31, 2008 10:51 pm

Easter Egg found -- a "commentary out take". ;~}

First Renoir film I really liked a lot. Maybe because it (seemingly alone in his catalog of works) is so remarkably similar to Japanese films of the same time period.

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ellipsis7
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#29 Post by ellipsis7 » Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:32 pm

Michael Kerpan wrote:Easter Egg found -- a "commentary out take". ;~}

First Renoir film I really liked a lot. Maybe because it (seemingly alone in his catalog of works) is so remarkably similar to Japanese films of the same time period.
Interesting - I don't think he visited Japan or was exposed to Japanese films or culture at anytime - however, just as Japanese cinema was closely related to Japanese visual art, Renoir was inevitably son of the father, and thus similarly very visually aware too, emerging out of a tradition of painting, drawing etc.... The Cinematheque Francaise exhib late 2005 juxtaposed the paintings and the films in the same exhibition space, very strikingly.... Maybe that is where the connection lies...

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Michael Kerpan
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#30 Post by Michael Kerpan » Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:37 pm

It may be that the similarities were a matter of convergence -- rather than influence. Direct sound, location shooting, understated performances, unmelodramatic depiction of the lives of ordinary people. Interestingly, Atalante (superficially similar in some ways) did not seem at all like Japanese films of this time.

As far as I can tell, Toni stands pretty much alone in Renoir's catalog of works.

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ellipsis7
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#31 Post by ellipsis7 » Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:58 pm

Yes, it is sometimes considered a precursor of Italian neo-realism (in fact Visconti was an assistant on the film)....

.... JR told of his father and Impressionism.... The coming of photography circa 1850 freed painting of the imperative of directly reflecting reality... But what really drove his father and the other artists to the outdoors, he pointed out, was the invention of little lead tubes of paint which could be squeezed like toothpaste, which allowed them to venture further, rather than have to mix the paints on a pallette in the studio, or in the field where they would spill into each other...

Right now in the National Gallery of Ireland in Dublin there is also a current exhibition of Impressionist Interiors, emphasising the introduction of the quotidien, the everyday, the domestic, into the painting of the time...

While, Michael K, you have fallen for TONI, for me, there are boundless riches in each and every one of JR's films... He was not known as a humanist director for nothing, but his work contains the most subtle and sharp political points and moral complexity, all seemingly effortlessly whipped into dramatic form...

And, as you know, I rank Ozu also in the pantheon, with great appreciation too of Naruse and Mizoguchi, while liking Kurosawa when he is in IKIRU mode (i.e. rarely)...

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#32 Post by Michael Kerpan » Sun Jun 01, 2008 3:08 pm

Renoir is a director whose work I would love to love. I think Renoir himself was a marvelous guy. But, so far, only Toni has really clicked with me. Lower Depths, Rules of the Game and The Southerner were all mis-fires. I wish it were not so. ;~{

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Tommaso
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#33 Post by Tommaso » Sun Jun 01, 2008 5:54 pm

Michael Kerpan wrote: But, so far, only Toni has really clicked with me. Lower Depths, Rules of the Game and The Southerner were all mis-fires. I wish it were not so.
Ouiii... I'm almost shocked to hear this from you (of all people). "The Southerner" is one of the few Renoirs I haven't seen, and "Lower Depths", while a good film, is not one of his major works in my view. But it seems almost incredible to me that someone engaged with film that much doesn't like "Rules of the Game". Anyway, give Renoir another chance. If you liked "Toni", there are indeed not many films of his (if at all) that are directly comparable, but perhaps you should tried "Boudu". Although it is a comedy in a way, its social concerns are almost as poignant as "Toni"'s.

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#34 Post by Michael Kerpan » Sun Jun 01, 2008 6:09 pm

I totally expected to like Rules. But the only aspect I really liked a lot was Renoir's own performance. I just didn't care a bit about any of the other characters. My wife said that she thought Grand Illusion (which I have yet to see) was a lot better.

Every now and then, I find a film that I'm predisposed to like that just doesn't work. Sadly, rules was one of these.

I decided to give Toni a shot because it was set in Provence -- and my wife lived there for a year and liked it. And because Toni was on sale. ;~}

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#35 Post by skuhn8 » Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:12 am

Michael Kerpan wrote:Renoir is a director whose work I would love to love. I think Renoir himself was a marvelous guy. But, so far, only Toni has really clicked with me. Lower Depths, Rules of the Game and The Southerner were all mis-fires. I wish it were not so.
Looks to me like your wish somehow came true: Rules of the Game is certainly not a misfire (I don't see how Lower Depths is either for that matter). Cause for celebration, no?

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#36 Post by markhax » Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:39 am

davidhare wrote:A problem with Toni for anyone who has never learnt French - and I know you have it as a Language M, is the effect this has on your interest in the performances in Toni. The range of accents (and the substantial amount of Italian and Spanish/Basque in the soundtrack is significant), and in a sense I think he carries over a formal idea he really went with in Carrefour and that's to give the widest possible scope to amateur and "pro" voices on the apparently crazy soundtrack, down to the accents of "guest workers" and every imagineable class and its argot, in French itself.
Thanks for this interesting post! My French is not good enough to discern these different accents in 'Toni', but what you write reminds me of an aspect of Fritz Lang's first two sound films, ''M' and "Das Testament des Dr. Mabuse.' Accent becomes a form of characterization. In 'M', the child murderer Lorre is an outsider by virtue of his Austro-Hungarian accent (he was born in Slovakia), in a world of various German accents. The same is true of the villain Dr. Baum, in 'Testament', played by the Budapest-born Oscar Beregi. Inspector Lohmann, on the other hand, has a thick Berlin accent. Lang, as a Viennese working in Berlin, was certainly aware of how accents could be signifiers of difference, and he seems to have relished this new possibility of characterization, as he did so many other aspects of sound film.

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skuhn8
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#37 Post by skuhn8 » Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:54 am

Lorre was actually born in the Hungarian part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire (in a portion given to Slovakia as part of Treaty of Triannon)--minor quibbile but significant when you consider that Hungarians often fill the part of 'the other' in German films.

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GringoTex
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#38 Post by GringoTex » Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:04 am

davidhare wrote:I was watching this again last night and - admittedly a bit tanked
Toni is the only 30s Renoir film I haven't loved. Maybe I should watch it drunk.

Has anybody else found that some movies go down better drunk? Lancelot du lac is one of those for me. One of my favorite movies of all time, but I can't watch it sober.

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skuhn8
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#39 Post by skuhn8 » Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:07 am

GringoTex wrote:
davidhare wrote:I was watching this again last night and - admittedly a bit tanked
Toni is the only 30s Renoir film I haven't loved. Maybe I should watch it drunk.

Has anybody else found that some movies go down better drunk? Lancelot du lac is one of those for me. One of my favorite movies of all time, but I can't watch it sober.
Sounds like fodder for the lists thread: "10 Films that Suck Unless Drunk"

Leaving Las Vegas

I actually am kind of cliche that I like to watch--or wash down--my Renoir (especially Rules of the Game and Bete Humaine) with wine and cheese. Same with L'Avventura. I kind of make a ritual out of it. I'm stupid.

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Tommaso
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#40 Post by Tommaso » Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:29 am

skuhn8 wrote:I actually am kind of cliche that I like to watch--or wash down--my Renoir (especially Rules of the Game and Bete Humaine) with wine and cheese. Same with L'Avventura. I kind of make a ritual out of it. I'm stupid.
Not at all stupid. Film ideally is an all-immersing experience, and I can't think of anything better than wine and cheese for Renoir. Guinness for "The Quiet Man", and vodka for Kaurismäki (obviously). Perhaps a little saké would help me to finally get more into Naruse and Ozu...

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#41 Post by Michael Kerpan » Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:53 am

skuhn8 wrote:
Michael Kerpan wrote:Renoir is a director whose work I would love to love. I think Renoir himself was a marvelous guy. But, so far, only Toni has really clicked with me. Lower Depths, Rules of the Game and The Southerner were all mis-fires. I wish it were not so.
Looks to me like your wish somehow came true: Rules of the Game is certainly not a misfire (I don't see how Lower Depths is either for that matter). Cause for celebration, no?
Misfire applies not to the merits of the film -- but only to its success in engaging my affection. There are many wonderful films out there that work for lots of people (but not others).

I only wish there were more Toni-like films by JR.

And I loved the "linguistic stew" in Toni. The mixing of languages and accents is one of the major treats in the film.

MOC deserves to sell a zillion copies of this.

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tryavna
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#42 Post by tryavna » Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:45 pm

GringoTex wrote:
davidhare wrote:I was watching this again last night and - admittedly a bit tanked
Toni is the only 30s Renoir film I haven't loved. Maybe I should watch it drunk.

Has anybody else found that some movies go down better drunk? Lancelot du lac is one of those for me. One of my favorite movies of all time, but I can't watch it sober.
Well, being drunk certainly didn't help make Carousel any better for me! (And I thought it might....)

Toni also left me a little cold. Not understanding French or the nuances that David has pointed out may be a part of the problem. Now I have a good reason to revisit it. (Any reason to revisit Renoir is good, of course.)

MK: You may also want to check out the films in Lionsgate's 3-disc set of Renoir films. It spans virtually his entire career -- and as David points out, there are indeed "periods" in Renoir's work. I have a sneaking suspicion you might like La Marseillaise if you catch it in the right frame of mind. (Full disclosure, however: I actually prefer Renoir's take on Lower Depths over Kurosawa's.)

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#43 Post by MichaelB » Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:47 pm

Tommaso wrote:Not at all stupid. Film ideally is an all-immersing experience, and I can't think of anything better than wine and cheese for Renoir. Guinness for "The Quiet Man", and vodka for Kaurismäki (obviously). Perhaps a little saké would help me to finally get more into Naruse and Ozu...
What about Criterion's upcoming reissue of Salò?

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skuhn8
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#44 Post by skuhn8 » Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:09 am

MichaelB wrote:
Tommaso wrote:Not at all stupid. Film ideally is an all-immersing experience, and I can't think of anything better than wine and cheese for Renoir. Guinness for "The Quiet Man", and vodka for Kaurismäki (obviously). Perhaps a little saké would help me to finally get more into Naruse and Ozu...
What about Criterion's upcoming reissue of Salò?
Strong munster and...paté?

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#45 Post by Michael Kerpan » Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:36 am

tryavna wrote:MK: You may also want to check out the films in Lionsgate's 3-disc set of Renoir films. It spans virtually his entire career -- and as David points out, there are indeed "periods" in Renoir's work. I have a sneaking suspicion you might like La Marseillaise if you catch it in the right frame of mind. (Full disclosure, however: I actually prefer Renoir's take on Lower Depths over Kurosawa's.)
Well, I was utterly unenthused by Renoir's Lower Depths, while I loved Kurosawa's version (for the most part). So, this would need to be factored into the likelihood of any other Renoir film winning favor with me. ;~}

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#46 Post by skuhn8 » Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:40 am

Michael Kerpan wrote:
tryavna wrote:MK: You may also want to check out the films in Lionsgate's 3-disc set of Renoir films. It spans virtually his entire career -- and as David points out, there are indeed "periods" in Renoir's work. I have a sneaking suspicion you might like La Marseillaise if you catch it in the right frame of mind. (Full disclosure, however: I actually prefer Renoir's take on Lower Depths over Kurosawa's.)
Well, I was utterly unenthused by Renoir's Lower Depths, while I loved Kurosawa's version (for the most part). So, this would need to be factored into the likelihood of any other Renoir film winning favor with me. ;~}
This should probably roll into a Renoir focused thread at this point, but it sounds to me like trying to win you over to Renoir is useless. I definitely would like to save you the bother of trying to get into him via the flaccid entry called La Marseillaise (I'm trying to be generous but GODDAMN did this movie kill me). If his other mid- late- thirties work like Grand Illusion, Lower Depths, Rules of the Game, Partie de Campaigne, Bete Humaine don't pull you in I don't think any of his stuff will.

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#47 Post by Michael Kerpan » Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:02 am

I'll watch more Renoir. I haven't given up on him -- yet. What I watch (one of these days) will depend, in part, on what I can get for free from the Boston Public Library. But I do wish he had other (very) Toni-like films, but it does not seem like there are any other films that really fit this description. Even so, I will keep the various recommendations in mind.

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#48 Post by ellipsis7 » Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:50 am

Renoir's adaptation of Flaubert's MADAME BOVARY, immediately preceded TONI, and is possibly closest to it in general style... Film is a 'partially lost' Renoir in that his 3 hour edit was hacked down to 2 hours and less for release, making for the only surviving versions... Admired by Rohmer and indeed Tom Milne (see his article 'Love in Three Dimensions' in Sight & Sound), to name two, it is hard to get hold of - however I just laid my hands on a NTSC VHS of the US version discounted from €39.99 to €9.99 at moviesunlimited.com... As Milne points out JR uses deep focus and long takes accentuated by sharply delineated sound perspectives to noted effect in the film, conjuring up the constrictiveness of Emma Bovary's existence as a plodding country doctor's wife, from which she feels she must escape through hopeless affairs and indulging her fantasies of petty bourgeois grandeur...
Last edited by ellipsis7 on Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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#49 Post by HerrSchreck » Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:57 am

skuhn8 wrote:This should probably roll into a Renoir focused thread at this point, but it sounds to me like trying to win you over to Renoir is useless. I definitely would like to save you the bother of trying to get into him via the flaccid entry called La Marseillaise (I'm trying to be generous but GODDAMN did this movie kill me). If his other mid- late- thirties work like Grand Illusion, Lower Depths, Rules of the Game, Partie de Campaigne, Bete Humaine don't pull you in I don't think any of his stuff will.
This is absolutely positively a prescient post. If the masterpieces from the 1930's don't get you, there's little chance that the material on the Lion's Gate will. The silent material is hit miss and really (honestly) cannot stand next to the best of the silent era-- I'm talking in terms of construction and mise en scene.. not even dealing with the issue of his wife chimping about and nuking every scene with Irritant.

La Marsellaise is good imho, but is subpar versus Regle, Illusion, Lange, Bete Humaine, etc. I honestly don't know where Scorsese is coming from in his huge admiration for the film-- if I recall correct he called it in his opinion the greatest historical film ever made(!). It's a good film, but suffers from some serious klunkiness at times. And those wigs! Even Coco couldn't rescue that with rampant solid costumery...

And though I actually quite liked the off-kilter TV-feel of Cordelier, the Elusive Corporal just felt unfortunate all round. Definitely not a career-capping Gertrud moment for sure..

And Mike I totally agree w you-- the Kurosawa Lower Depths is imho endlessly superior film versus the Renoir, which to me feels a little embarassing in it's casting. It has some wonderful moments-- the Ren-- particularly the moments between Gabin and Jouvet-- but the bottle blonde and Natacha are simply unbearable to look at. Junie Astor's Natacha with her awful penciled eyebrows and prostate-clenchingly bad acting is far worse than Prims' landlord-wife (and she is BAD in my opin). Renoir even confessed in an ex post facto way that despite the prize the film won, he knew it was ruined by the casting forced upon him, rendering the relationships completely unbelieveavle. He confessed his trying a bunch of things to try and get Astor's appearance to agree with the camera, but to no avail. Its an instructive lesson regarding the fact that there are simply some people who cannot photograph well and should generally NOT be cast. Astor is one of them. Renoir knew that Kurosawas film was better than his own, and he openly admitted it. LeVigan's (I think it's him) accordion playing drunken actor also feels uncomfortably "off" for me as well. There seems to be quite a bit of naivete in the making of this film-- this is the best way I can describe it. Renoir simply lacked, it appears, a feeling for the millieu... the place doesn't register it's lowness, and the hairdo's and the dye jobs and the eyebrow pencils just don't register as an acceptable environment for the Gorky to play out against.

The Kurosawa on the other hand is a magnificently unusual entry into his directorial canon. The style is unusual for him, the performances and mise en scene are simply wonderful. And there's a total registration of the millieu onscreen, that the director understands the class he is dealing with-- their mannerisms, their despair, their last-ditch-defense sense of humor, backbiting, moments of kindness, the motivations behind certain acts of cruelty and kindness against this kind of a last-stop backdrop. It was one of those films that registered "good" to me at first sight... then it got better, and better, and I now regard it as a total masterpiece. Very near in tone and tempo to Humanity and Paper Balloons by Yamanaka.

As for Toni-- sadly it's one of the few 1930's Renoir's I've NOT seen.. probably this and Nuits de.. are all that remain unseen by me from his first silents thru his post-Regle departure.

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#50 Post by ellipsis7 » Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:18 am

The early to mid 30s JR talkies run as follows...

ON PURGE BEBE (1931)
LA CHIENNE (1931)
LA NUIT DU CARREFOUR (1932)
BOUDU SAUVE DES EAUX (1932)
CHOTARD ET CIE (1933)
MADAME BOVARY (1933)
TONI (1934)
LE CRIME DE MONSIEUR LANGE (1935)
LA VIE EST A NOUS (1936)
UNE PARTIE DE CAMPAGNE (1936)
LES BAS FONDS (1936)

It's important to know them all, to get the context of any individual one...

JR's LOWER DEPTHS has grown on me, and I rather like it now, but ironically he abandoned his masterpiece (unfinished) UNE PARTIE DE CAMPAGNE to make LOWER DEPTHS, UNE PARTIE only being put together by close associates, Producer Braunberger & Editor Margeurite Houlle-Renoir after the war, when Joseph Kosma was recruited to add the marvellous score... There were still some framing scenes to be shot, and which exist clearly in script form, never to be filmed, but the end film, completed in Renoir's absence from the existing footage, nevertheless speaks of his genius as well the spirit of collaborative creativity that his work inspired and embraced...

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