172-174 Sherlock, Jr., The General & Steamboat Bill, Jr.

Discuss DVDs and Blu-rays released by Eureka/Masters of Cinema and the films on them. If it's got a spine number, it's in here.
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Finch
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Re: 172-174 Sherlock, Jr., The General & Steamboat Bill, Jr.

#26 Post by Finch » Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:03 pm

Pity the Hisashi score isn't included but MoC may well have tried their best and licencing issues may have thrown a spammer in the works. Still, this is an absolute must have of a set, and the fact that they're not holding it back for November or December makes me wonder what they've got lined up for the holidays. I applaud MoC for putting these out but if Cohen have got the Hisashi score, I may quadruble-dip on the General.

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MichaelB
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Re: 172-174 Sherlock, Jr., The General & Steamboat Bill, Jr.

#27 Post by MichaelB » Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:00 pm

The bottom line: did Eureka themselves ever promise the Hisaishi score?

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swo17
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Re: 172-174 Sherlock, Jr., The General & Steamboat Bill, Jr.

#28 Post by swo17 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:39 pm

Just be grateful it's available somewhere. With silents, you kind of have to resign yourself to owning multiple editions to allow for variant presentations.

FlickeringWindow
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Re: 172-174 Sherlock, Jr., The General & Steamboat Bill, Jr.

#29 Post by FlickeringWindow » Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:11 pm

Including scores by Carl Davis and Timothy Brock is hardly worth lamenting over. I'm excited about hearing Brock's score on Sherlock Jr. - his score on the Lobster restoration of Cops is magnificent. At least they didn't license the one on the old Kino DVD.

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tenia
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Re: 172-174 Sherlock, Jr., The General & Steamboat Bill, Jr.

#30 Post by tenia » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:12 am

Banasa wrote:Comments dismissing releases from lacking alternative dubs, scores, television versions of films not being available on otherwise stacked discs reminds me of the kids who used to get 20 things for Christmas and then get upset because they didn't get a pony.
Dismissing a release and being vaguely disappointed is not the same thing.
Also, stacked releases can still miss something that seems interesting (here, the alternative Steamboat Jr version).
I understand how some always ranting people can be annoying, but going the opposite direction doesn't seem better to me.

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david hare
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Re: 172-174 Sherlock, Jr., The General & Steamboat Bill, Jr.

#31 Post by david hare » Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:25 pm

The new Cohen/Ritrovato 4K of Stemaboat Bill is like watching pristine nitrate. And the Brock is a beauty. Admittedly I heard it played iive ocnducted by Brock with the projector screening the movie at the PIazza Maggiore at Ritrovato wih a carbon arc lamp. It looks magnificent. I started to watch the Kino from the older 2K at home recently and had to stop. These will be indispensibe if only for the viual elements.

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chiendent
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Re: 172-174 Sherlock, Jr., The General & Steamboat Bill, Jr.

#32 Post by chiendent » Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:01 pm

I just got an email from amazon saying the release date was moved to November 6, not sure if it's a stock thing or an actual delay. Can't wait to see these restorations (the 2K Kinos are playing near me, just to torture me a bit more)

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rapta
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Re: 172-174 Sherlock, Jr., The General & Steamboat Bill, Jr.

#33 Post by rapta » Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:17 pm

It has been delayed on the Eureka site too, so I assume that's a real delay. That's okay with me, just means all the big box sets are bunching up in November.

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Roscoe
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Re: 172-174 Sherlock, Jr., The General & Steamboat Bill, Jr.

#34 Post by Roscoe » Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:09 am

The amazon.uk site now says that the set will not be shipped to the United States, which it did not say when I placed my order in July...

And now it says that it can be delivered to the United States -- that's very weird.

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Ribs
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Re: 172-174 Sherlock, Jr., The General & Steamboat Bill, Jr.

#35 Post by Ribs » Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:51 pm

Amazon.co.uk has been doing some weird business particularly with marketplace sellers involving placing restrictions on certain titles or vendors and then removing them seemingly at random.

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chiendent
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Re: 172-174 Sherlock, Jr., The General & Steamboat Bill, Jr.

#36 Post by chiendent » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:15 pm

Moved to November 20th according to amazon.

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FrauBlucher
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Re: 172-174 Sherlock, Jr., The General & Steamboat Bill, Jr.

#37 Post by FrauBlucher » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:50 am


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TMDaines
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Re: 172-174 Sherlock, Jr., The General & Steamboat Bill, Jr.

#38 Post by TMDaines » Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:19 am

Should be receiving mine today. Looking forward to my first taste of Keaton.

HitchcockLang
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Re: 172-174 Sherlock, Jr., The General & Steamboat Bill, Jr.

#39 Post by HitchcockLang » Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:35 am

Can anyone explain to me why the first Kino BD of The General had a sepia tint and no other restorations/releases have? I'm assuming the print Kino used for that release had a sepia tint and they didn't arbitrarily add it. I know "intent" and "original theatrical exhibition" are difficult things to pin down in the silent era often with multiple alternate versions circulating simultaneously, but can anyone perhaps shed some light on this sepia vs. untinted The General question. It's always bugged me.

FlickeringWindow
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Re: 172-174 Sherlock, Jr., The General & Steamboat Bill, Jr.

#40 Post by FlickeringWindow » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:49 pm

HitchcockLang wrote:Can anyone explain to me why the first Kino BD of The General had a sepia tint and no other restorations/releases have? I'm assuming the print Kino used for that release had a sepia tint and they didn't arbitrarily add it. I know "intent" and "original theatrical exhibition" are difficult things to pin down in the silent era often with multiple alternate versions circulating simultaneously, but can anyone perhaps shed some light on this sepia vs. untinted The General question. It's always bugged me.
It's possible that evidence was found that it wasn't tinted for its original US release, while prior masters were tinted in good faith. Lobster's 2K master isn't tinted, either.

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chiendent
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Re: 172-174 Sherlock, Jr., The General & Steamboat Bill, Jr.

#41 Post by chiendent » Tue Nov 28, 2017 3:57 pm

My set arrived only four or five days after shipping (the initial email estimated Dec 11 so I guess I've just been lucking out with international shipping the past few orders). Had a chance to watch all three movies over the weekend. It's been years since I'd seen Steamboat Bill or Sherlock, Jr. so I can't really compare the new restorations to recent ones but I can't imagine either looking much better than they do here. I watched The General last, though, and even after seeing the quality of the first two I was blown away by how much better it looks, especially in motion. I'd love to see this projected in 4K on a large screen because the level of detail is stunning.

I haven't had a chance to look through the extra features yet aside from the video essay on Steamboat Bill Jr and skimming the booklet. The physical set itself is pretty similar in quality to last year's MoC shorts release.

I'm not sure I can add much to the discussion of the films themselves (which itself is scattered across numerous threads due to the sheer number of rereleases) but I'm looking forward to some more side-by-side comparisons with the previous restorations. I don't own any other versions of these films so the set was an automatic purchase for me but the upgrade for The General alone makes this set worth it, in my opinion. Curious to see how Cohen handles the theatrical and home video releases.

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Drucker
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Re: 172-174 Sherlock, Jr., The General & Steamboat Bill, Jr.

#42 Post by Drucker » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:27 pm

I watched two of the three films last night and took a peak at a few extras and this has to be a candidate for release of the year. I have every Kino Blu-ray but these really do blow those away and screenshots do not do it justice. There are moments of softness when people are moving that seem just age-related more than anything, but the overall clarity is unreal. Comparing The General to the Kino, the black and white really does the film a lot of favors that the tinting took away from. One of the most striking scenes is the mid-point of the film with Buster hiding under the table, finding Annabelle, and escaping in the woods. As he hides under the table, he's in a very deep shadow that really stands out as beautifully contrasted. The Kino blu-ray is clearly sourced from a speckled print and as good as I'm sure it was at the time (and I've enjoyed it dozens myself), it doesn't hold a candle to this.

In addition: I don't know what it is, or if it's a different recordings, but Carl Davis' score shines in a way that blew me away. I didn't realize that the Kino apparently had the same score, which makes me think they may be different performances? The new restorations also feature overture music that starts before the title cards which really draws you into the film. The older Kino didn't have this.

The packaging is also very firm, and I'd say even better than last year's shorts. Most of the extras from the Kino are here (like the Welles intro and the Kalat commentary) and apparently a few new ones. Even if you know these films inside and out, it's like watching for the first time.

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david hare
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Re: 172-174 Sherlock, Jr., The General & Steamboat Bill, Jr.

#43 Post by david hare » Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:58 pm

Drucker wrote:........In addition: I don't know what it is, or if it's a different recordings, but Carl Davis' score shines in a way that blew me away. I didn't realize that the Kino apparently had the same score, which makes me think they may be different performances? The new restorations also feature overture music that starts before the title cards which really draws you into the film. The older Kino didn't have this.
The packaging doesn't make anything clear about this but I think Brock conducted the Carl Davis scores for these discs. I saw Steamboat Bill in 4K in June with him and the orchestra live at Bologna Piazza Maggiore and it wiped me out both movie transfer and score, and the disc is almost at that level. I was slightly, slightly less entranced by the encode for Sherlock Jnr. Admittedly it's a short title but the file size and bitrate is far from maxmium, and I honestly think when it comes to 4K sourced masters lkike these a BD encode needs all the bitrate it can get for depth and grain. But it beats the shit out of the Kino.

We are now at the point where things like this (and the 4K reissue of Letter from an UNknown Woman) and all the stuff coming out of Arrow adn Indicator, and next years Gaumont BDs for the 4K restored VIgos (plus 100 minutes outtakes disc) should ideally be released in UDH/HDR disc format. If only.

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172-174 Sherlock, Jr., The General & Steamboat Bill, Jr.

#44 Post by MichaelB » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:11 am

Well, never say never, but the cost of manufacturing small print runs has got to come down significantly first. I think I now have the technical wherewithal to burn 4K UHD discs at home, but blank media is about fifteen quid per disc, and I typically go through two or three burns per project - so even from a QC perspective (never mind production and manufacturing) it’s a lot more expensive.

You have only to look at the £29.99 cost of the crowdfunded Suspiria UHD disc to get some idea of the current problems - and people aren’t going to pay that much if they can get The Martian for half that.

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tenia
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Re: 172-174 Sherlock, Jr., The General & Steamboat Bill, Jr.

#45 Post by tenia » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:28 am

Especially in a market like the UK where BDs have been so low in prices.

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Re: 172-174 Sherlock, Jr., The General & Steamboat Bill, Jr.

#46 Post by MichaelB » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:31 am

Yes, absolutely. There's this guy on one of the Facebook Hammer groups who's constantly moaning about the "horrendously expensive" Indicator Hammer box, whose discs cost a whopping £10.75 each. On what planet is that unreasonable for brand new discs with cleaned-up masters, loads of newly-created extras and hefty booklets per title?

He also knows that the discs are being released separately after the box sells out (and all signs are that it will), so the "well, I shouldn't be forced to buy all four titles" argument doesn't stand up either.

The simple fact is that market pressures have led to a situation in the UK where BD prices are being kept artificially low - and the problem there is that people think that this is now a fair price and complain bitterly if they're sold for significantly more. But this makes it very very difficult for a new higher-quality format to achieve significant market penetration - I myself baulk at paying more than £19.99 for a single-disc release, but even the majors are often charging £24.99 for UHD discs despite benefiting from economies of scale that will be denied to indies.

So it's not at all surprising that independent labels are still shying away from the format - Suspiria being an exceptional case because we've had so many crappy releases for so long that people seem entirely happy to pay £29.99 for a UHD disc (even though, ironically, all signs are that the even more expensive Synapse BD is truer to the original!). But I seriously doubt that that price point is sustainable across multiple releases.

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tenia
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Re: 172-174 Sherlock, Jr., The General & Steamboat Bill, Jr.

#47 Post by tenia » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:41 am

I think that in some ways, people just don't understand why some fluctuations can happen and of course, because human people are human people, they only remember what's best for them so now, all some of the UK consumers remember is that the Herzog BFI set had 8 BD-50 and 18 movies on BD for £50, so sure, 4 movies for £43 is expensive as hell !
I see this happen very often in France. For instance, Carlotta recently released a set of 6 Hou Hsiao-hsien movies for 60€, while their Barbet Schroeder set only had 5 for the same price. Meanwhile, their 4 Hitchcock movies set cost 100€ because of the (tremendous) 300p book, but the Wild Side 6 Preston Sturges movies set cost 120€ but comes with a (cool but not a good) 188p book.
All this stupidly but firmly blurs the prices for the general audience : in one set, a movie cost 3€, in another 20€, in a thrid one 10€. It can be hard to understand (and the addition of heavy books often is perceived as an artificial way to amp up the price - not my take, but some big books are quite light in texts so I can understand the quibble - ).
MichaelB wrote:(even though, ironically, all signs are that the even more expensive Synapse BD is truer to the original!)
At some point, you have to wonder how much you're ready to pay for that extra faithfulness. I myself caved in only a few days, but it took me months to do so, simply because in the end, with all the stuff I want to buy, it pained me to put about 70€ for this single movie.

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Re: 172-174 Sherlock, Jr., The General & Steamboat Bill, Jr.

#48 Post by david hare » Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:18 pm

MichaelB wrote:Well, never say never, but the cost of manufacturing small print runs has got to come down significantly first. I think I now have the technical wherewithal to burn 4K UHD discs at home, but blank media is about fifteen quid per disc, and I typically go through two or three burns per project - so even from a QC perspective (never mind production and manufacturing) it’s a lot more expensive.

You have only to look at the £29.99 cost of the crowdfunded Suspiria UHD disc to get some idea of the current problems - and people aren’t going to pay that much if they can get The Martian for half that.

All you say about the UK market and prices is true. What is shocking is seeing how much Brit labels sell for in continental Europe, even pre Brexit. In Paris last May I went to Gibert Joseph (as usual) to buy the Indicator Housekeeping and Big Sleep which they had in stock. price for the Forsyth was 39 Euros.

Brit prices are a bargain and have been for a while.

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tenia
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Re: 172-174 Sherlock, Jr., The General & Steamboat Bill, Jr.

#49 Post by tenia » Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:40 pm

Be aware however that Import prices at Gibert have worsen these past years and are currently considered a joke.

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david hare
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Re: 172-174 Sherlock, Jr., The General & Steamboat Bill, Jr.

#50 Post by david hare » Tue Dec 05, 2017 5:17 pm

I certainly thought so. It's rare I ever buy from B&M in any case. They are no longer up against the big mega shops on the Champs which seem to have gone, even FNAC Bastille (which was my local.)

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