BD 134 Man with a Movie Camera & Other Works by Dziga Vertov

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Dr Amicus
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Re: BD 134 Man with a Movie Camera & Other Works by Dziga Ve

#26 Post by Dr Amicus » Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:02 am

TMDaines wrote:Interesting that the BFI chose to submit the film in the pas.

But wasn't there a cinema reissue? I'm assuming it would have been submitted for that - and a quick double check shows that this was the case last year, with a Video submission in 2008 (although that doesn't explain why it was submitted then).

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MichaelB
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Re: BD 134 Man with a Movie Camera & Other Works by Dziga Ve

#27 Post by MichaelB » Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:53 am

I can't speak for the BFI's decision, but from my perspective the film is unarguably a documentary. How can it sensibly be classified as anything else?

Although I suspect the BFI tends to err on the side of caution when it comes to BBFC submissions - or of course whoever submitted it may not have realised that it was exempt. Let's face it, the BBFC is hardly going to put them right, given that this would mean missing out on a nice fat fee!

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Re: BD 134 Man with a Movie Camera & Other Works by Dziga Ve

#28 Post by Jonathan S » Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:05 am

Most exempt releases I own, like the BFI's Richard Massingham collection, or the Variety Acts & Turns series, bear an "E" in a triangle or "Exempt from classification" notice, but presumably that's optional? Or is it used in more borderline cases?

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Re: BD 134 Man with a Movie Camera & Other Works by Dziga Ve

#29 Post by MichaelB » Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:48 am

As I understand the Video Recordings (Labelling) Regulations Act of 2012, it's optional. Several sections begin "Where under these Regulations the classification symbol, the classification icon, the unique title or the explanatory statement, or any combination of them, is or are required to be shown", but since this is not the case with exempt material, it's a judgement call on the part of the distributor.

As I said, the BFI tends to err on the side of caution - but if you glance down Second Run's covers, you'll see that their documentary releases similarly don't sport a symbolic E. It's not legally necessary, and it's aesthetically unappealing, so why do it if you don't have to?

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Re: BD 134 Man with a Movie Camera & Other Works by Dziga Ve

#30 Post by Feego » Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:50 pm

MichaelB wrote:As to how it was done, David Mackenzie has posted this on another forum:
Resyncing the score was quite delicate. The biggest problem is that the new restoration usually has more footage than what the score was originally recorded to, as you pointed out.

Jon Robertson of MoC identified the key parts where the sync was not right. I then had to find points where the sync could be adjusted without it becoming obvious. There are a limited number of points you can cut at to shift things around (small gaps of silence are the ideal case). Another "cheat" was whenever there's cymbal crashes at the end of a sequence. You can digitally time-stretch those parts of the audio without creating audible artefacts, to make up differences in duration, in a way that would sound weird with almost any other type of instrument.
I did the QC on this title, which included double-checking that everything matched the new sync points, so I can confirm first hand just how much work went into this. But it was spectacularly worth the effort.
I watched this last night, and I can honestly say the MoC disc offered a far more satisfying experience than the off-sync Flicker Alley disc. It's obvious that the beats of the music were composed to coincide precisely with certain beats and movements in the images (the scene of the girl folding cigarette cartons being a prime example), so this stood out like a sore thumb before. Rest assured that the work that went into re-syncing the score is not going unappreciated by this viewer. I can't wait to dive into the extras.

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DeprongMori
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Re: BD 134 Man with a Movie Camera & Other Works by Dziga Ve

#31 Post by DeprongMori » Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:16 pm

I concur. The MOC release of Man With a Movie Camera was a revelation, both due to the restoration of the image and the care taken with the score synchronization. I hadn't seen this since the screening at the 1996 San Francisco International Film Festival with live accompaniment by Alloy Orchestra. This came as close as I could imagine to recreating that experience at home.

Although I am likely to skip the subtitling in the future, it was greatly appreciated for giving me a better sense for what the various icons and texts were in the film.

I can't wait to dig in deeper. So far this is shaping up to be "release of the year" for me.

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Re: BD 134 Man with a Movie Camera & Other Works by Dziga Ve

#32 Post by Bürgermeister » Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:59 am

I'm looking forward to "Dr" Pro-b's nitpicking and rather predictable 3 star review(particularly for the extra's) of this great release. :wink:

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Re: BD 134 Man with a Movie Camera & Other Works by Dziga Ve

#33 Post by Drucker » Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:15 am

I watched the main feature last night, and while I've never seen the Flicker Alley restoration, the sync of the sound was indeed noticeably perfect. In the 5th section, where the machine operators are being highlighted and things like boxes and newspapers are churning out, the percussion crashes sync up perfectly with the video. I can imagine even the slightest adjustment here would throw it off. The video presentation is absolutely gorgeous.

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tenia
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Re: BD 134 Man with a Movie Camera & Other Works by Dziga Ve

#34 Post by tenia » Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:55 am

Bürgermeister wrote:I'm looking forward to "Dr" Pro-b's nitpicking and rather predictable 3 star review(particularly for the extra's) of this great release. :wink:
There are both MichaelB's and my own name in this one (though he obviously got a much higher billing than mine), so that'd make sense.

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Re: BD 134 Man with a Movie Camera & Other Works by Dziga Ve

#35 Post by colinr0380 » Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:57 pm

Drucker wrote:I watched the main feature last night, and while I've never seen the Flicker Alley restoration, the sync of the sound was indeed noticeably perfect. In the 5th section, where the machine operators are being highlighted and things like boxes and newspapers are churning out, the percussion crashes sync up perfectly with the video. I can imagine even the slightest adjustment here would throw it off. The video presentation is absolutely gorgeous.
Vertov's films are still perhaps the ultimate example of the fusion of soundtrack and visuals to convey meaning, so anything that detracts from that experience can be problematic. This reminds me that the same issue of de-syncronisation was also a major issue with Vertov's sound film Enthusiasm: Symphony of the Donbass, apparently until the 1970s restoration of it. There's a fantastic extra feature on the old German Filmmuseum DVD in which Peter Kubelka talks about, and runs through, the painstaking work involved in re-syncing the soundtrack by isolating sounds and pairing them with images (for example the political pronouncements hitting on the soundtrack with the impact of each blow of a hammer on the film image). Its such an outstanding documentary piece because of the way it shows how the soundtrack changes in meaning, magnifies meaning or conversely muffles the impact if just a few frames off.
Last edited by colinr0380 on Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: BD 134 Man with a Movie Camera & Other Works by Dziga Ve

#36 Post by Tommaso » Fri Apr 29, 2016 7:47 pm

Yes, indeed. So, does this MoC version feature the re-synched soundtrack for "Enthusiasm", too? Because, strictly speaking, it is not 'original' (though very much superior to the release version), so I wonder what the choice was here.

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Drucker
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Re: BD 134 Man with a Movie Camera & Other Works by Dziga Ve

#37 Post by Drucker » Sun May 01, 2016 1:35 pm

So I'm making my way thru this set, and still enjoying it greatly. Unfortunately, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but there are several audio drop outs during Kino-Eye. I noticed them during these time-stamps. Anyone else check if their copies have it too?

6:45
15:24
38:34
49:30
1:01:32
1:13:47

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DeprongMori
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Re: BD 134 Man with a Movie Camera & Other Works by Dziga Ve

#38 Post by DeprongMori » Sun May 01, 2016 10:17 pm

I can confirm that I am experiencing the audio drop-outs in Kino-Eye as well. I haven't checked the DVD, only the BluRay.

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Paul Moran
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Re: BD 134 Man with a Movie Camera & Other Works by Dziga Ve

#39 Post by Paul Moran » Wed May 04, 2016 5:46 pm

I watched the Other Works BD today, and found the Kino-Eye audio faults at the time-stamps indicated by Drucker. I also found them on the DVD, but the time-stamps advanced slightly as the film progressed; the last fault was 5 seconds earlier at 1:13:42. They didn't spoil my enjoyment of the film.

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Re: BD 134 Man with a Movie Camera & Other Works by Dziga Ve

#40 Post by swo17 » Tue May 10, 2016 11:15 pm

I'm also getting the dropouts.
Tommaso wrote:Yes, indeed. So, does this MoC version feature the re-synched soundtrack for "Enthusiasm", too? Because, strictly speaking, it is not 'original' (though very much superior to the release version), so I wonder what the choice was here.
I sampled the film and the audio appears to be tightly synced to the images.

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Re: BD 134 Man with a Movie Camera & Other Works by Dziga Ve

#41 Post by der_Artur » Wed May 11, 2016 8:28 am

Paul Moran wrote:I watched the Other Works BD today, and found the Kino-Eye audio faults at the time-stamps indicated by Drucker. I also found them on the DVD, but the time-stamps advanced slightly as the film progressed; the last fault was 5 seconds earlier at 1:13:42. They didn't spoil my enjoyment of the film.
That's very sad. Can we expect that these errors will be taken care of in a future pressing? I doubt there will be a replacement disc because of this.

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Re: BD 134 Man with a Movie Camera & Other Works by Dziga Ve

#42 Post by Ribs » Tue May 31, 2016 10:31 am

Maybe this is better for the packaging thread, but I'm curious: upon examining the set, I realize there's no BBFC logos of any kind on the outside of the package. How are they able to do that?

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Re: BD 134 Man with a Movie Camera & Other Works by Dziga Ve

#43 Post by domino harvey » Tue May 31, 2016 10:32 am

Documentary exemption, I believe?

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Re: BD 134 Man with a Movie Camera & Other Works by Dziga Ve

#44 Post by swo17 » Tue May 31, 2016 10:37 am

Yes, as discussed earlier in this very page.

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Re: BD 134 Man with a Movie Camera & Other Works by Dziga Ve

#45 Post by Orlac » Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:35 pm

Drucker wrote:So I'm making my way thru this set, and still enjoying it greatly. Unfortunately, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but there are several audio drop outs during Kino-Eye. I noticed them during these time-stamps. Anyone else check if their copies have it too?

6:45
15:24
38:34
49:30
1:01:32
1:13:47
Are these drop-outs on the Flicker Alley BD?

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kuzine
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Re: BD 134 Man with a Movie Camera & Other Works by Dziga Ve

#46 Post by kuzine » Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:17 am

Orlac wrote:
Drucker wrote:So I'm making my way thru this set, and still enjoying it greatly. Unfortunately, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but there are several audio drop outs during Kino-Eye. I noticed them during these time-stamps. Anyone else check if their copies have it too?

6:45
15:24
38:34
49:30
1:01:32
1:13:47
Are these drop-outs on the Flicker Alley BD?
I have both releases and noticed the dropouts while watching the MoC last night. Just checked the Flicker Alley and they're not present there. Didn't care about the score so it doesn't bother me tbh.

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swo17
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Re: BD 134 Man with a Movie Camera & Other Works by Dziga Ve

#47 Post by swo17 » Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:52 am

Looks like this was just reissued in a slimmer 2-disc BD-only edition.

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