125 / BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

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peerpee
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Re: BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#76 Post by peerpee » Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:36 pm

Also, the Danish version premiered in Copenhagen six months before the French version premiered anywhere.

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Saturnome
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Re: BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#77 Post by Saturnome » Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:58 pm

Calvin wrote:It also features the 'Lo Duca' version.
:D

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Tommaso
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Re: BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#78 Post by Tommaso » Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:22 pm

Okay, I have to admit you all make rather convincing points for the Danish intertitles. Still I personally have the feeling that simply because of the subject of the film, and it having been made for a French company, optional French titles (by means of seamless branching) would have been a good idea. Sure, they would have to be re-created ones from censorship cards or something, as has been good practice in recent years with a lot of German silents, both from FWMS and occasionally even by fans, but I sure would like to be able to read the words as they were written for the country this film was actually made for in the first place, even if I agree with Schreck that silents were pretty much an international affair. But the problems not only start, as has been discussed extensively here, with translating Lubitsch's Berlin humour into other languages...

In this respect, I still regret that Filmmuseum didn't see fit to include the American intertitles in some way in their fabulous release of the Austrian print of Stroheim's "Blind Husbands". And with MoC releasing two different versions of "Jeanne" (or at least, at two different speeds), there might have been the chance to give one the French, and the other the Danish titles.

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peerpee
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Re: BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#79 Post by peerpee » Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:43 pm

When the DFI's materials are used to screen JOAN across Scandinavia (where the DFI have theatrical rights) it's the original Danish intertitled version they screen (ie. the "Oslo print"). There is also a Japanese DVD of this Danish intertitled version, which runs at (the more correct) 20fps. When JOAN was screened a few months ago at the BFI in London, it was at 20fps (96 minutes).

It's a sure bet that 24fps is "wrong" for this film. The 1999 Criterion DVD is the wrong speed. Pretty much everyone (DFI, BFI, Tybjerg, Gaumont) are in agreement that the film should run at a speed slower than 24fps.

Gaumont and Criterion will almost certainly be prepping a French subtitled version. It may well be that the original Danish intertitles don't get a look in (on Blu-ray) unless MoC go that path (which they are).

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Drucker
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Re: BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#80 Post by Drucker » Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:00 pm

Is this clip of, perhaps at least a lesser version, of what MOC is releasing (intertitles and speed?).

What would have been the reasoning for the film to be shown at 24fps for so long? Did recent research confirm the slower speed?

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Re: BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#81 Post by Brianruns10 » Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:28 pm

Drucker wrote:Is this clip of, perhaps at least a lesser version, of what MOC is releasing (intertitles and speed?).

What would have been the reasoning for the film to be shown at 24fps for so long? Did recent research confirm the slower speed?
Yes and no. Yes in that it definitely has different takes, and therefore comes from the 2nd negative. However, it would not appear to be the Lo Duca version since that version was sonorized with music and altered title cards.

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Drucker
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Re: BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#82 Post by Drucker » Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:32 pm

I meant "lesser version" as in not the final product, restoration-wise. However, with different inter-titles and what seems like a slightly slower speed, could this be the release at 20FPS?

Gaddis
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Re: 125 / BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#83 Post by Gaddis » Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:46 am

A must buy for me purely for the Loren Connors accompaniment. I mean, great film and all, but Loren Connors!

rattlebag
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Re: 125 / BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#84 Post by rattlebag » Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:34 am

A must buy for me purely for the Loren Connors accompaniment. I mean, great film and all, but Loren Connors!
I was excited enough about the film and that I read this and my mind was blown! Great choice for a soundtrack!

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denti alligator
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Re: 125 / BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#85 Post by denti alligator » Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:07 pm

rattlebag wrote:
A must buy for me purely for the Loren Connors accompaniment. I mean, great film and all, but Loren Connors!
I was excited enough about the film and that I read this and my mind was blown! Great choice for a soundtrack!
Yep, this is incredible news. Perfect choice, I think. Wonder what approach he'll take. Slow and plaintive or slow and noisy--or both.

Zot!
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Re: 125 / BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#86 Post by Zot! » Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:25 pm

Slightly off topic, but can anyone comment on what drives all these endless restorations for the same film? While I respect the spirit of competition, it seems rather wasteful. Is there really enough money to be made from "owning" a restoration's rights that it becomes a financial consideration?

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Re: 125 / BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#87 Post by NABOB OF NOWHERE » Tue Jul 17, 2012 2:03 pm

denti alligator wrote:
rattlebag wrote:
A must buy for me purely for the Loren Connors accompaniment. I mean, great film and all, but Loren Connors!
I was excited enough about the film and that I read this and my mind was blown! Great choice for a soundtrack!
Yep, this is incredible news. Perfect choice, I think. Wonder what approach he'll take. Slow and plaintive or slow and noisy--or both.
Probably in line with his Murder of Joan release on Table of the Elements

Brianruns10
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Re: 125 / BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#88 Post by Brianruns10 » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:17 pm

Zot! wrote:Slightly off topic, but can anyone comment on what drives all these endless restorations for the same film? While I respect the spirit of competition, it seems rather wasteful. Is there really enough money to be made from "owning" a restoration's rights that it becomes a financial consideration?
Well in reference to Joan of Arc, I don't think this complaint really applies. The film was first restored in 1985, shortly after it's rediscovery. That's more than 25 years ago. A lot has changed technologically. The film was due for a new restoration.

Now as for the competing restorations by MoC and Gaumont? It's a little hard to judge without knowing all the facts.

Gaumont only recently announced they'd received funding to restore Joan of Arc. My guess is MoC embarked on their restoration prior to this announcement, and it'd be rather needless to scrap all that work, AND wait for the Gaumont restoration. It could also be a rights issue. They may not be able to get access to the Gaumont restoration; maybe they instead bargained with the Danish Film Archive. Who knows?

Granted, some restorations go over the top. Lord, Casablanca has been restored so many times I wonder if they haven't peeled the emulsion off the base of the camera neg.

But Joan of Arc is a little different. I for one am glad to get to see two different versions yielded. Because I adore the film above all others. I'll buy any release that comes out.

Zot!
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Re: 125 / BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#89 Post by Zot! » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:33 am

Brianruns10 wrote: Now as for the competing restorations by MoC and Gaumont? It's a little hard to judge without knowing all the facts.

Gaumont only recently announced they'd received funding to restore Joan of Arc. My guess is MoC embarked on their restoration prior to this announcement, and it'd be rather needless to scrap all that work, AND wait for the Gaumont restoration. It could also be a rights issue. They may not be able to get access to the Gaumont restoration; maybe they instead bargained with the Danish Film Archive. Who knows?
Yeah that's what I mean. It's even more glaring that nobody has touched the film since 1985 and all of sudden there are two dueling restorations. I have to guess that in some cases it's more cost effective to do your own restoration than license a film. It just seems to be fairly prevalent recently. I'm not faulting MoC in this instance, just questioning the practice in general.

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Re: 125 / BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#90 Post by evillights » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:02 pm

Given the circumstances surrounding the intertitles of the film, and what constitutes their "most integral" form, one would be hard-pressed to neglect including the Danish intertitles as the default. That said, yes, it is a French production, and La Passion de Jeanne d'Arc should be considered its "integral" title, but as demonstrated by this thread alone, the film has an unusual pedigree. On top of that, half the world seems to refer to her as "Joan" instead of "Jeanne," which was her name. It goes without saying that, with something as close as possible to "integrality" achieved in its presentation, the most important thing is that the film be introduced again and anew for present and successive generations — that the film be seen, and discussed, and allowed to shake a million souls.

The 20fps running speed is almost certainly the correct, intended, "integral" speed for the film — and will be presented and contextualized as such on our disc, both in how it's presented on the menus, and in a long section within the accompanying booklet. There is still a (slight) margin of error that a 22fps or 24fps presentation might have been intended (unlikely) or perhaps just 'tolerated' — but whether or not this slim chance have any merit at all, people from Casper T. to Thomas C. to Peter Becker and to the French acknowledge that 20fps should now probably be considered the correct speed for the film.

With that in mind, we're also presenting the 24fps version not as much as a means of 'scholarly' or archival impulse to show the speed at which the film has been playing-back over the last decades in projection and on video (though there's that), but, mainly, as a means of giving people the chance to experience the Loren Connors score, which we're completely wild about, and which was created for the film at 24fps before a 20fps restoration/re-calibration had yet to come into existence. It's an important piece of work, and a corrective (a small one, at least) to the tons of crappy, bombastic silent film scores that generally get attached to restorations these days by so-called "silent-film music experts." Even for scores that are okay on paper, or are alright as notes/arrangements, in modern times they're almost always recorded in that fed-right-into-ProTools manner, no ambience, no analogue warmth, no humanity, just chilly digitality.

And with all THAT being said, Dreyer's preferred presentation of the film is that it be watched silently — and silence is golden. This film needs no accompaniment, and is all the stronger shown silently. Again, this will be contextualized inside the release; PLAY FILM (AT 20FPS), SILENT will be the main entry / default setting for the film on the menus.

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Re: 125 / BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#91 Post by HerrSchreck » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:29 pm

Amen. I always watch this film silent. And the emotional typhoon (and sheer awe for its creators powers) it wreaks on me with each successive viewing never pales.

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Re: 125 / BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#92 Post by isakborg » Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:21 pm

20 fps and a default to silence, per Dreyer's wishes! Fantastic. Thank you, MOC.


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Re: 125 / BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#94 Post by swo17 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:38 pm

I don't think there was ever any question about there being a steelbook. In fact, like Metropolis, the steelbook will be the only dual format release available.

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Re: 125 / BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#95 Post by eerik » Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:09 pm

Just like it was announced on Monday...

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andyli
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Re: 125 / BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#96 Post by andyli » Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:44 pm

Really? I just went back and checked both the Speculation and Package threads there was nothing said about a steelbook that day.

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Re: 125 / BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#97 Post by swo17 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:52 pm

This was the whole announcement on Twitter:
MoC wrote:Our other NOVEMBER release — this is a big one — One of THE ultimate, most iconic, and simply greatest films in the history of cinema: Carl Theodor Dreyer's THE PASSION OF JOAN OF ARC. This edition of PASSION OF JOAN OF ARC comes from an exclusively undertaken restoration of the film. Our edition presents the film in silent versions at both 20fps and 24fps. It also includes an optional score for the 20fps version by Mie Yanashita; and an optional score for the 24fps version by Loren Connors. Our edition also includes the now-rarely-seen "Lo Duca" version of the film, circulated in France throughout the apex of the New Wave. Our edition of THE PASSION OF JOAN OF ARC presents the film with the Danish inter titles penned by the hand of Carl Dreyer himself. It is from these Danish intertitles by Dreyer that subsequent French-intertitled prints of the film were based upon. Our release will be available as Blu-ray only, DVD only, and special collectible SteelBook Dual Format (Blu-ray + DVD) editions.

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andyli
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Re: 125 / BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#98 Post by andyli » Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:56 pm

Oh... Sorry I didn't follow the twitter feed on Monday.

j99
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Re: 125 / BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#99 Post by j99 » Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:38 pm

Why the long wait until November?

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Drucker
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Re: 125 / BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#100 Post by Drucker » Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:45 pm

j99 wrote:Why the long wait until November?
MoC only does 4 announcements a year, one per quarter...

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