125 / BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

Discuss releases by Eureka and Masters of Cinema and the films on them.
Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
YnEoS
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:30 am

Re: Forthcoming: The Passion of Joan of Arc

#26 Post by YnEoS » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:45 am

peerpee wrote:Royalty costs per unit mean that it's quite prohibitive for the distributor to include more than one score on a release, unless that extra cost is added to the asking price.
I realize that you'd probably get tons of complaints if you upped the cost on the release. But if you could find some way to sucessfully market it as a premium release, personally Passion of Joan of Arc is a title I wouldn't mind spending some extra money on for a really high quality release.
Jonathan S wrote:The Voices of Light score always dissuaded me from buying the Criterion DVD - I find any vocal score for silent films very distracting, especially when there are lots of intertitles.
I don't really find that to be a problem with the Voices of Light score, the singing seems to act as additional instruments rather than conventional singing, and since I don't speak Latin or Old French, there's never that mental divide where I'm reading inter-titles and trying to ignore the words I'm heading that happens with more poorly done vocal scores.

By the way, about the claim that Passion of Joan of Arc should be silent. I remember reading a quote where Dreyer expressed the wish to make a truly silent film that didn't need music. But was there ever any evidence that he thought Passion of Joan of Arc shouldn't be seen with music?

Calvin
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:12 am

Re: Forthcoming: The Passion of Joan of Arc

#27 Post by Calvin » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:11 pm

Are there any extras suitable for this release that weren't on the Criterion? I'm having a hard time thinking what MoC could put on it (other than creating their own of course).

User avatar
swo17
Bloodthirsty Butcher
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:25 am
Location: SLC, UT

Re: BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#28 Post by swo17 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:46 pm

Slow news day: This will be spine #50, per MoC Twitter. There is apparently already a cover designed, but it hasn't been leaked yet.

Calvin
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:12 am

Re: BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#29 Post by Calvin » Wed Feb 29, 2012 1:16 pm

It would be interesting if MoC could get Lars Von Trier to contribute to this release, I can't remember exactly but I think he discussed it on Mark Cousins' The Story of Film.

Brianruns10
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:48 am

Re: Forthcoming: The Passion of Joan of Arc

#30 Post by Brianruns10 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 3:52 pm

Calvin wrote:Are there any extras suitable for this release that weren't on the Criterion? I'm having a hard time thinking what MoC could put on it (other than creating their own of course).
Oh I could think of at least three major supplements:

1) and 2) If indeed they survive (there seems to be some disagreement on this), inclusion of Falconetti's two other film appearances, Le Clown, and La Comtesse de Somerive, would be HUGE.

3) the Lo Duca version of "Passion of Joan of Arc." Prior to the discovery of the Norway print, this was the only available version of Joan of Arc. Sonorized, with subtitles in place of title cards, it is a bastardization, yet CRUCIAL because it derives from the 2nd negative which Dreyer created after his first negative was destroyed in a fire, using alternate angles and takes. This would be huge insight into Dreyer's creative process as it would allow us to compare between his favored takes which comprised the 1st cut, and his 2nd favorites which made up the 2nd cut.

Any release from this point on that excludes it I would hesitate to call definitive by any means. It simply must be included.

Calvin
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:12 am

Re: BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#31 Post by Calvin » Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:12 pm

Yeah, I've been asking MoC about Falconetti's previous work for some time now with no response. It seems that no one really knows, I'd ask the Cinematheque Francaise myself if I thought my French was good enough and I had any chance of getting a response.

EDIT: Well, I sent them a message. Let's see what they say!
Last edited by Calvin on Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

peerpee
not perpee
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:41 pm

Re: BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#32 Post by peerpee » Wed Feb 29, 2012 4:19 pm

Don't agree about the Lo Duca. My understanding is that every print of JOAN was from the 2nd negative, as the 1st negative was destroyed before anything could be made from it. Hence, the Oslo print and the Lo Duca derive from the same neg (the 2nd), and the Lo Duca was trashed to hell by Dreyer in the early 60s.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is my understanding after talking to a lot of folk about it.

User avatar
Saturnome
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:22 pm

Re: BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#33 Post by Saturnome » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:13 pm

But doesn't the Lo Duca version shows alternate takes?

peerpee
not perpee
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:41 pm

Re: BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#34 Post by peerpee » Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:25 pm

My understanding is that the 1928 Danish premiere (which came six months before the French premiere), and the 1928 French premiere, both derive from the second negative – and that the Lo Duca does too (16mm, missing around half an hour) and so the Lo Duca doesn't offer anything new.

All that anyone's ever seen has been of the second negative (and that also went up in flames in 1928, but thankfully after it had been used to create other materials).

User avatar
Saturnome
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:22 pm

Re: BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#35 Post by Saturnome » Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:19 pm

These are definitively different takes :
Image Image
Image Image

It doesn't show anything like new shots apparently (but some shots from neither versions exists). Though Dreyer hated it and most certainly is inferior in every way, I think it was the version shown at the cinematheque francaise and that made the film's reputation (but I can understand that every shot is so strong in this film that it could shine even in the worst copy).

peerpee
not perpee
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 3:41 pm

Re: BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#36 Post by peerpee » Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:00 pm

If someone can hook me up with a file of the Lo Duca, we'll look into it. Can't tell anything from those grabs. My email is NICK at MASTERSOFCINEMA dot ORG

Brianruns10
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:48 am

Re: BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#37 Post by Brianruns10 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:55 pm

Nick, I can with 100 percent confidence assure you they are two entirely different versions, in as much as each comprises different takes of the same scenes. The Lo Duca is indeed from the 2nd negative. The 2nd negative was thought lost, but apparently he located it in a vault and attempted a "restoration" which included deleting or replacing inter titles, and adding a soundtrack and narration. Dreyer disowned it.

If you want a glimpse of it, check Criterion's "Vivre Sa Vie." There is a moment where it is screened for the main character, and there are some glorious shots. It sure seems like, as late as the sixties, there was still a stellar print available of this version. What has happened to it since then, I don't know.

The Oslo version is from the lost 1st negative. It was struck during the first run, and the print was located complete with the original Danish censors card (but it had not been censored...the card just indicated when it had been inspected). How it got there is unclear. Prevalent theory is that the proprietor of the hospital, a known cinema lover, had done Dreyer a favor at one time or another, and the print sent to him was in thanks/recompense.

For further confirmation, here is a link to a portion of the Lo Duca version, scored by Julius Eastman before the Oslo print was discovered in 1981. You can tell because instead of white on black inter titles, there are text over images.

Compare the two long enough and you'll see the differences, why Dreyer hated the second version so much. The expressions aren't right at times, the reactions different. Characters that react with looks of sympathy in one appear panicked in the other.

Please, do investigate including the Lo Duca version! There just has to be quality elements available, judging by what was used in Vivre Sa Vie. There just has to be!

Here's another source on the various versions of Joan of Arc, from the most authoritative source, the Danish Film Institute.

Brianruns10
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:48 am

Re: BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#38 Post by Brianruns10 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:56 am

Additionally, Gaumont re-released Joan of Arc in 1978, so they might be a good place to start regarding this version, if it is the Lo Duca version, or the Danish Film Institute's reconstruction

evillights
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:47 pm
Location: U.S.
Contact:

Re: BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#39 Post by evillights » Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:28 am

Calvin wrote:It would be interesting if MoC could get Lars Von Trier to contribute to this release, I can't remember exactly but I think he discussed it on Mark Cousins' The Story of Film.
Unlikely for LvT to ever appear on one of our releases.

User avatar
neilist
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:09 am
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#40 Post by neilist » Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:05 am

Brianruns10 wrote:Additionally, Gaumont re-released Joan of Arc in 1978, so they might be a good place to start regarding this version, if it is the Lo Duca version, or the Danish Film Institute's reconstruction
I'm not sure so that it's the Lo Duca version of the print that should be put back in distribution, given Dreyer's opinion of it.

I'd be much more keen to know if the print found by Lo Duca still exists as it was found by him, before he butchered it, presumably as cut by Dreyer himself and his editor post-1928. From the article mentioned above, the Danish Film Museum reconstructed this version in the '60s (which would suggest that the print as found by Lo Duca no longer existed or wasn't available) and I'm much rather see that reconstruction put out, which would surely feature all of the alternate takes and footage seen in the Lo Duca, than the Lo Duca version itself?

If neither the Danish '60s reconstruction or the print as found by Lo Duca is available and the Lo Duca butchered version is all that is available, I'm not sure how feasible it would be now to try and take that footage and again reconstruct a version without subtitles and with the titlecards from the footage found in 1981? Surely the Lo Duca exists in a version without subtitles, for use at the time in overseas distribution so foreign markets can add their own and so the original titlecards could be reintroduced into that?

Fingers crossed that the 1978 Gaumont print is the Danish reconstruction and is available though.

User avatar
Drucker
Your Future our Drucker
Joined: Wed May 18, 2011 9:37 am

Re: BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#41 Post by Drucker » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:15 am

From the sound of it, a "scene by scene" sort of comparison a la Rules of the Game versions would be fascinating, if it was possible.

User avatar
markhax
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2007 5:42 pm
Contact:

Re: BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#42 Post by markhax » Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:59 am

evillights wrote:
Calvin wrote:It would be interesting if MoC could get Lars Von Trier to contribute to this release, I can't remember exactly but I think he discussed it on Mark Cousins' The Story of Film.
Unlikely for LvT to ever appear on one of our releases.
That's probably true, but there is a LvT/Dreyer connection. His brilliant early Medea was based on a Dreyer screenplay.

Brianruns10
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:48 am

Re: BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#43 Post by Brianruns10 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:42 am

What would be worth figuring out is what sources the Danish reconstruction used. I was under the impression that, until the discovery of the Oslo print, the first version was thought a lost film...

Therefore I presumed that the Danish reconstruction was cobbled together from surviving copies of the 2nd version.

And then there is the spectre of a THIRD version, since Dreyer shot many takes, and if some of those takes not used in cuts 1 and 2 were extant, maybe they were used.

Wow this film's history is surely as complex as, well, every film Orson Welles ever made (except 2)

User avatar
neilist
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:09 am
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#44 Post by neilist » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:58 am

Brianruns10 wrote:And then there is the spectre of a THIRD version, since Dreyer shot many takes, and if some of those takes not used in cuts 1 and 2 were extant, maybe they were used.
I'm not really sure it's fair to say Dreyer shot many takes, I'd be suprised if many scenes were shot more than two or three times. As to the existance of a third version, you have to start questioning the authenticity of any version outside of the two edited by Dreyer himself.

From what I know, we have Dreyer's complete first version, rediscovered in 1981. His second version was very possibly the one rediscovered and then edited down by Lo Duca, before being reconstructed as far as they could by the Danish Film Museum in the '60s.

Beyond those two cuts, any other versions, presumably such as the '30s Langlois version, shouldn't really be considered as Dreyer's film. Any further footage not used by Dreyer to make his two versions would be interesting to see along the lines of a 'deleted scenes' DVD extra, since it was shot by Dreyer, but shouldn't really be used to make up further versions.

I'm happy with the idea that the print found in 1981 is Dreyer's 1928 first version and the one that should be used above all others. Speculation as to a definitive version of his second cut seems largely moot unless there's a record as to what of the alternate footage and takes were used by Dreyer to make it up, which I doubt. I'm fairly sure that the Danish '60s reconstruction would be the closest we could come to it though and that this version would certainly be good to have available as an alternate version, being the closest we could come to his second version.

Regarding this '60s Danish reconstruction, does anyone know when about in the '60s it was made and if Dreyer himself ever saw it and what he thought? Was he even involved/consulted at all in its construction?

Brianruns10
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:48 am

Re: BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#45 Post by Brianruns10 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:16 pm

And I agree that the (only) definitive version is the Oslo print.

But as an insight into Dreyer's work, and for a more complete study of the film's history, I do think a search for and inclusion of the Lo Duca version to be vital as well. It is fairly clear that it is comprised of alternate takes, and therefore must derive in some fashion from the Dreyer's 2nd edit. So it has a slight legitimacy in that Dreyer chose those takes after the first neg was lost, though they are his second bests. A comparison would reveal much in how Dreyer selected which takes. I can say that each version has different reactions, different ways the scene is played....

And before the Oslo print was found, the Lo Duca version was the one most people knew...it is what introduced them to Joan of Arc. That has value as well, much as the American edit of "Metropolis" though a bastardization, still has huge importance because IT was the version most people knew, not the 1926 Berlin Premiere version. It is a shame Kino hasn't bothered with a release of that version.

I would strongly encourage and hope that MoC pursues the Lo Duca, even as an SD bonus feature, for completeness' sake. And per the youtube vid I posted, the Lo Duca DOES exist. Someone just needs to locate the source for it.

User avatar
neilist
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:09 am
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#46 Post by neilist » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:43 pm

Oh, I definitely agree that Dreyer's second cut should be represented and recognised with a version on the forthcoming MoC release and I really hope it will happen; it would certainly be a fantastic insite into Dreyer's techniques in shooting and editing. I would just personally rather see the inclusion of the '60s Danish reconstruction that was made up to be as close as possible to Dreyer's second cut, rather than the Lo Duca edit that Dreyer vehemently protested the release of. I understand your case as for it, being the version that people knew, but the fact that Dreyer rejected it makes me less keen on it.

As to what's actually out there and available to use, I guess we will just have to wait and see. If the Lo Duca is all that there is in the way of alternate versions then I'd certainly rather have it than not. Either way, I can't imagine a release coming out next year that I'm looking forward to more than this MoC.

Brianruns10
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:48 am

Re: BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#47 Post by Brianruns10 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:19 pm

And if indeed the Danish reconstruction is from takes of the 2nd edit, I'd say include that. It may be easier, as I'd imagine this is something the Danish Film Institute would have in their collection.

I'm just sure there are quality elements out there. One need only see the blu-ray for "Vivre Sa Vie," and the scene where Anna Karina watches Joan of Arc...the print they used for that scene is stellar

Maybe that's a route...contact people involved in the production of Vivre sa Vie, and see just what source they used for those shots...I'd wager they got it from the Cinemateque, given Godard's connections there in the 60s....

Ishmael
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:56 pm

Re: BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#48 Post by Ishmael » Thu Mar 01, 2012 2:56 pm

Brianruns10 wrote:I'm just sure there are quality elements out there. One need only see the blu-ray for "Vivre Sa Vie," and the scene where Anna Karina watches Joan of Arc...the print they used for that scene is stellar

Maybe that's a route...contact people involved in the production of Vivre sa Vie, and see just what source they used for those shots...I'd wager they got it from the Cinemateque, given Godard's connections there in the 60s....
You know Vivre Sa Vie is 50 years old, right? Even if that print (and not just that snippet of it) was in excellent shape back then, that doesn't say much about what it would look like now.

Brianruns10
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:48 am

Re: BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#49 Post by Brianruns10 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:06 pm

Ishmael wrote:You know Vivre Sa Vie is 50 years old, right? Even if that print (and not just that snippet of it) was in excellent shape back then, that doesn't say much about what it would look like now.
No but it says there was a print of substantial quality available as late as the early sixties, and it's whereabouts/fate could potentially be tracked from records pertaining to the production of Vivre sa Vie.

By this time, the film had some renown...there were many who obviously cared for it, and I have to believe it received better treatment than, say, London After Midnight which existed into the late sixties before being lost in a vault fire.

Calvin
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:12 am

Re: BD 50 The Passion of Joan of Arc

#50 Post by Calvin » Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:16 pm

Apparently Issue 367/368 of L'Avant Scene Cinema which is dedicated to Passion has the poster art of Falconetti's previous film (along with other stuff on Passion). Can't manage to track down a copy though. Is there any good information in the Falconetti biography written by her daughter?

Post Reply