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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:16 am 
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Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 10:06 pm
The blood-letting shot is shown in two versions on one of the extras on the Criterion edition (I'm assuming this is where Saturnome got the above screengrabs): you can see that in the second take the blood comes out much less vigorously. At least that's my memory of it.

I agree with Brianruns that it would be really interesting to see the Lo Duca edit as well as the un-bastardised version of the second cut. Extras like that would make this a truly definitive release. In any case, wonderful to see it coming out in this country at last...


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:24 pm 
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Location: Brisbane, QLD, Australia
Londoners should get themselves down to the NFT this month. Two screenings as part of the BFI's The Passion of Carl Dreyer season.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:34 pm 

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:12 am
Calvin wrote:
Yeah, I've been asking MoC about Falconetti's previous work for some time now with no response. It seems that no one really knows, I'd ask the Cinematheque Francaise myself if I thought my French was good enough and I had any chance of getting a response.

EDIT: Well, I sent them a message. Let's see what they say!


Well I got a response that basically said (in a very polite way) that my French was terrible so they had no idea what I was talking about but if I presented some evidence, they might be able to find out. Does anyone have access to the FIAF 'Treasures from the Film Archives' database? I would buy the CD-ROM from FIAF but I'm not spending €100 on what amounts to curiosity. A screencap of the (supposed) entries for Le Clown and La comtesse de somerive might be a big help. Alternatively, if anyone knows French, send them an e-mail.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:01 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 9:00 am
Location: Atlanta, GA
Here are the full FIAF Treasures from the Film Archives entries for the two early Falconetti films:
Quote:
Film Description: CLOWN (FR, Maurice de Féraudy, 1917)
Film Title: CLOWN
Film Country:France
Film Director: Féraudy, Maurice de
Film Year: 1917
Production Company: Films Molière
Archive: Cinémathèque Française (Paris) [FRC]
Accession Number: 7239

Quote:
Film Description: COMTESSE DE SOMMERIVE, LA (FR, Jean Kemm & Georges Denola, 1917)
Film Title: COMTESSE DE SOMMERIVE, LA
Film Country: France
Film Director: Kemm, Jean; Denola, Georges
Film Year: 1917
Production Company: S. C. A. G. L.
Archive: Cinémathèque Française (Paris) [FRC]
Accession Number: 7666

The FIAF database entries appear to indicate that materials for both films survive, they don't give any information about whether the films are complete, what kind of materials survive, or what condition they're in.

OK, back to work on my book!


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 5:55 pm 

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:12 am
Thanks. Hopefully they understand me better now, I've written it in both English and French on the off chance they are actually bilingual. I have no idea what 'accession number' is in French but Google Translate said 'número d'accession so I went for that.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:17 am 

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:12 am
Out on 12th November, from an exclusive restoration! Presented in both 20fps and 24fps - the first with an optional score by Mie Yanashita and the latter with an optional score by Loren Connors. It also features the 'Lo Duca' version.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:50 am 

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:12 am
manicsounds wrote:
Now we just need the announcement of extras...


I'm praying for some extras on Falconetti. Hopefully MoC have succeeded where I've failed and managed to confirm if any of her previous films survive.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:00 am 
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What are the benefits of Passion in both projection speeds? I assume Criterion's is 24 fps?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:30 am 
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The two scores are a wonderful inclusion. I have trouble watching the film in total silence, whether or not that was Dreyer's intention, but never cared for the "Voices of Light" recording on the Criterion release. Can't wait to hear what the other extras will be.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:00 am 

Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:05 pm
Re Drucker's 20 fps vs 24 fps for Jeanne. My understanding is that the closer we get to sound, the more silent rate approached 24 fps, and Jeanne is right on the cusp. Nonetheless, I have always found a 24 fps for this film jarring at certain points (e.g., the climax) where the "action" picks up and everyone seems to be scurrying around like cockroaches. So I welcome this 20 fps choice. (The Criterion is at 24 fps, I believe, and it's the reason I didn't get it, after seeing a presentation at BAM of the film with the special score that accompanies the Criterion done live.) And am I the only person who finds the 24 fps (25 with Blu-ray?) on Metropolis to make the film (which I like very much, as I do the majority of Lang) just plain silly? I know that there have been reasoned arguments put forth that Lang was fine with 24 fps for Metropolis, but I just can't believe it.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:05 am 

Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:05 pm
P.S. on the above before I get put through a meat-grinder: I don't consider "Metropolis" silly - nothing that visually magnificent could be - but (for me and perhaps for some others) that at some points the movement on 24 fps steroids suddenly makes it "visually silly".


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:08 am 
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I am excited for the release, and find the Criterion one just fine. I just spent a lot of my down time at work last week reading the old Metropolis thread and personally agree with the sentiment that at it's current speed is what makes it such a powerful masterpiece, and I couldn't imagine it any other way. Sometimes "unnatural" just seems to fit in with the overall feel of a movie.

Regardless, this'll surely be one of the best releases of the year...and dear lord am I excited for it!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:14 am 
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I first saw Metropolis in a 'slower' version and it was excruciating; I do actually find it quite silly, but can embrace that as part of the film's charm at the higher frame rate. Its portentousness doesn't need extra emphasis.

It'll be fascinating to see a slower Joan, though - I can't help thinking it will look more like a Carl Dreyer film at 20 fps. Wonderful to have some new scores as well, as I'm very much in the 'can't stand Einhorn' camp.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:00 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:48 am
The frame rate decision is an interesting choice. To my eye, at least, the film has always looked to be a very consistent frame rate, as though the cameras were being powered by motor rather than hand. The fluidity of motion suggested to me that it was awfully close to 24fps. I've also had the displeasure of seeing a very, very old VHS release of Joan of Arc made apparently from a bootleg, one in which the FPS was slowed down radically to 18 or perhaps even 16 FPS, yielding a film that ran close to 120 minutes rather than the lean 80-ish. It was interminable to watch, and obviously far, far, far too slow.

The other thought that comes to mind, is the nature of the restoration. Since all the various incarnations of the TRUE version of Joan of Arc must originate with the Oslo print, and since Gaumont is doing the definitive restoration from THAT source, and since MoC says they're doing their own, independent restoration, it would seem to me that they using a source that derives from the Oslo print, but is a generation or two away from that, like a preservation interpositive or something. It would be difficult to imagine how their restoration would be able to compete with Gaumonts.

But that is all idle speculation. In the end, I'm thrilled, thrilled, thrilled to death that my all time favorite film will be coming to blu-ray, and with it, at long last, the Lo Duca version, which though an utter bastardization, is none the less CRUCIAL because it comes from Dreyer 2nd edit, and consists entirely of 2nd best takes and alternate angles, after the first negative was destroyed by fire. For the first time we'll be able to really compare the two versions, and understand Dreyer's editorial decision making process on this film.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:26 pm 

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:12 am
The inclusion of the Lo Duca version shows that MoC does take the comments here seriously and I find that quite heartwarming. \:D/


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:35 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:09 am
Location: Cambridge, UK
Calvin wrote:
The inclusion of the Lo Duca version shows that MoC does take the comments here seriously and I find that quite heartwarming. \:D/


I appreciate it could well be down to the influence of others as well, but I have been pleased to think through this afternoon that its inclusion might just be partly been down to the discussion a few of us had above... :)


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:20 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:48 am
I have to think we helped out a little. The Lo Duca version has always been a source of some confusion, and I think at least initially they were under the assumption it was merely a bowdlerization of the first version, not an entirely different film with different takes and angles. We helped clarify that for them.

Now the other big question mark is: did they do any digging into the survival status of Falconetti's two OTHER films, Les Clowns and La Comptesse de Somerive.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:22 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:01 pm
Location: Stretford, Manchester
No-one seems go be commenting on the fact that this is coming with Danish intertitles (and not French as one might expect). Any thoughts from those more familiar with the film? Surely, you could go down this route with any of Dreyer's German silents with the presumption that he penned them in his Danish mother tongue, or perhaps with any director who worked abroad during the silent period. Did Murnau, for instance, conceive Sunrise in the English language or in his native German?

It certainly makes me reconsider not buying the Danish Blu-ray of the two Dreyer silents because Die Gezeichneten didn't come with the original language, German, intertitles.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:34 pm 

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:12 am
Brianruns10 wrote:
Now the other big question mark is: did they do any digging into the survival status of Falconetti's two OTHER films, Les Clowns and La Comptesse de Somerive.


Indeed, I tried and failed to find out anything but I hope MoC have managed to find out whether or not they survive. If they do survive then it would be nice to have them included but just knowing would be a big deal.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:34 pm 
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TMDaines wrote:
No-one seems go be commenting on the fact that this is coming with Danish intertitles (and not French as one might expect).


Err, what...??? I didn't read about this so far, but if that should be true, it would mean an absolute no-go. And I mean: ABSOLUTE. This is a French film.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:36 pm 

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:12 am
Tommaso wrote:
TMDaines wrote:
No-one seems go be commenting on the fact that this is coming with Danish intertitles (and not French as one might expect).


Err, what...??? I didn't read about this so far, but if that should be true, it would mean an absolute no-go. And I mean: ABSOLUTE. This is a French film.


Twitter wrote:
Our edition of THE PASSION OF JOAN OF ARC presents the film with the Danish inter titles penned by the hand of Carl Dreyer himself. It is from these Danish intertitles by Dreyer that subsequent French-intertitled prints of the film were based upon.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:39 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:48 am
Well now hang on there, there is a case to be made for Danish intertitles.

For one, the Oslo print which is the only reason we are able to see Dreyer's original cut of the film, had Danish intertitles. They were translated to French for the earlier restoration of the film, with the aid of a continuity script, IIRC. Restoring the titles better reflects the original versions as it was discovered.

Also remember that Dreyer was a Dane, and the script was originally in his native tongue. So Danish intertitles would be closer to his vision, rather than, say, having English subtitles for French intertitles translated from Danish. I for one am excited at what new subtlteties we might discover, from being able to read in English the titles translated directly from the Danish originals.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:56 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 11:26 pm
Honestly, I've got the Criterion with French intertitles and I'm not going to sell it any time soon (particularly if MoC doesn't use the Casper Tyberg commentary) so I'm comfortable with variation.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:21 pm 

Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:48 am
Not to mention, you can bet a new CC edition will be rolling out just as soon as the Gaumont restoration is completed, and all the features of the existing DVD will be ported over. So win-win.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 4:26 pm 
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Silent films are for the world, designed to travel anywhere and everywhere. I object to this concept of this being a "French" film. It was made in a French studio, true, but it was made to be shown everywhere.

If you dig back on this forum you'll find me speaking about the replacement of the intertitles on this years ago. I always thought it would have been interesting to see this in the titles native to the print. Replacement of intertitles is never the dealbreaker for me as it can be for some around here and elsewhere . . . but owing to the fact that Dreyer was a Scandinavian and this print was far closer to his native language than French, I always thought it would be nice to simply see this film spool off "as is" without the insertion of electronic intertitles "probably very close to the original" (quoting from the crit booklet).

Also would be very interested to see the look/font of these titles, owing to the extraordinary nature of this most special film.


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