BD 170-171 Westfront 1918 & Kameradschaft

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TMDaines
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BD 170-171 Westfront 1918 & Kameradschaft

#26 Post by TMDaines » Sat Jul 29, 2017 12:29 pm

So why don't people use RGB and Full settings on all players and displays? Is there still recent subpar devices that don't do RGB well?!

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Re: BD 170-171 Westfront 1918 & Kameradschaft

#27 Post by nissling » Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:38 pm

Becuase...

1. Many players do a worse job up sampling than your TV.
2. It's already stored in YCbCr 4:2:0, so you cannot gain anything in terms of chroma resolution nor shades.
3. Many displays re-sample the RGB signal to YCbCr 4:2:2. For instance, most sets by LG only support RGB when set to PC and fed with a 60Hz source.

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Re: BD 170-171 Westfront 1918 & Kameradschaft

#28 Post by denti alligator » Sat Jul 29, 2017 9:49 pm

This is all very confusing to me. I have my projector calibrated. It looks good. What is "full range"? What you describe sounds like an authoring error. Why haven't reviewers noticed this?

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Re: BD 170-171 Westfront 1918 & Kameradschaft

#29 Post by nissling » Sun Jul 30, 2017 4:46 am

Full range is sometimes known as PC levels. It basically means that 0 is the reference for black and 255 for white (on an 8-bit greyscale). It's often used for desktop, video game consoles, graphics etc but never for film, video or anything like that. Instead of using all 256 steps, home video is designed only for using 220 of them. It's more or less a digital extension of the 7.5IRE black levels that were very common in the days of VHS and Laserdiscs.

My OLED is also professionally calibrated. Luckily all sets by LG have a very basic setting for full vs. limited range, so you can always match it with your source with just a press of a button.

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Re: BD 170-171 Westfront 1918 & Kameradschaft

#30 Post by TMDaines » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:12 am

When I was setting everything up last year, I researched this an awful lot. Consensus to me appeared that most recent, quality screens, monitors and projectors fully support RGB, so you are better configuring everything for that. My HTPC outputs for that, along with all of the pieces of software on it like Kodi, MPC, MadVR and VLC. Obviously that is perfect for gaming too.

I calibrated the brightness, contrast and gamma for both my Samsung TVs and BenQ projector and they seem spot on with Full/RGB.

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Re: BD 170-171 Westfront 1918 & Kameradschaft

#31 Post by nissling » Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:14 pm

TMDaines wrote:so you are better configuring everything for that.
Unless your display does a worse job converting YCbCr to RGB than your player (which I highly doubt) there's no reason to use anything but that for video and movies. Absolutely zero reason. I'm a gamer but I use separate inputs for my PC, XRGB-Mini, Ps4 etc. and those does not affect anything when I'm using my Blu-Ray player, thus I can use RGB for gaming and graphics as well as YCbCr for movies.

For a proper calibration you also need to calibrate the white balance to a specific color temperature. Usually D65 is set for standard. Generally speaking, this cannot be achieved without a colorimeter (and a couple of years of experience).

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Re: BD 170-171 Westfront 1918 & Kameradschaft

#32 Post by David M. » Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:36 pm

nissling wrote:Unfortunately, this edition suffers from some serious issues in terms of its visual presentation. While the restoration and mastering is indeed good for both features, they're presented with incorrect video levels. All shadow details are below the reference level for black (16) and all highlights are above the reference level for white (235). When watching Westfront 1918 on my OLED, the image was so dark I could barely see anything during the night scenes. After changing the video levels from limited to full on my TV, the image was displayed properly. I later checked with the settings on my Blu-Ray player (Pioneer BDP-450K) and it was set to YCbCr 4:2:2, which is correct. After various testings with other films as well as AVSHD there was no doubt that Eureka has made a serious mistake. The issue can, of course, be corrected on most sets but please be aware of this before purchase.
The presentations are as supplied, without any manipulation of the levels - so, those shadow and highlight details are where the colorist would have set them. There is detail present below black, but remember that although you can see into the shadows more if you set the player to output incorrect levels, it's not detail that's supposed to be visible.

If the low-end gamma tracking on your display is crushing a little, it'll create quite a contrasty look, since it's contrasty already. The 2016 and previous LG OLED displays crush blacks a little.

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Re: BD 170-171 Westfront 1918 & Kameradschaft

#33 Post by nissling » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:50 am

I am aware of that OLEDs have been problematic when it comes to shadow details and higher gammas, but this is far beyond that. And there are so many shadow and highlight details that are lost in this specific edition when viewed with video levels that the release is nothing but faulty.

The lower details are supposed to be visible. There's no question about that. The thing is that it's been improperly converted from full to limited range, so that the details are nowhere near what the colorist saw during the mastering. If you don't believe me I can give you some evidence later today, either with my OLED in action or with plain screenshots from the disc. Plus I've never adjusted my player to output any other levels than limited.

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Re: BD 170-171 Westfront 1918 & Kameradschaft

#34 Post by TMDaines » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:08 am

nissling wrote:Unless your display does a worse job converting YCbCr to RGB than your player (which I highly doubt) there's no reason to use anything but that for video and movies. Absolutely zero reason. I'm a gamer but I use separate inputs for my PC, XRGB-Mini, Ps4 etc. and those does not affect anything when I'm using my Blu-Ray player, thus I can use RGB for gaming and graphics as well as YCbCr for movies.
Nearly everything I do is through my HTPC, both movies and gaming, so it made sense to make to have everything in RGB.
nissling wrote:For a proper calibration you also need to calibrate the white balance to a specific color temperature. Usually D65 is set for standard. Generally speaking, this cannot be achieved without a colorimeter (and a couple of years of experience).
Obviously, I couldn't really calibrate the white balance/colour without investing in specialist equipment or services, which offer extremely poor value for the home viewing enthusiast, but I am happy with the basics of brightness and contrast that I could make a decent effort at myself. I then looked at what others settings others had with professional calibration on the same equipment. It's not perfect, but it's far better than out of the box and 99% of the way there.

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Re: BD 170-171 Westfront 1918 & Kameradschaft

#35 Post by nissling » Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:34 am

TMDaines wrote:I then looked at what others settings others had with professional calibration on the same equipment. It's not perfect, but it's far better than out of the box and 99% of the way there.
That's like using someone else's measures when going to a tailor. Consumer products varies so much that the proper settings cannot be used on another display.

I paid roughly 60 USD for CalMAN with a colorimeter. It makes a massive difference. However, my colorimeter isn't capable of measuring an OLED display so I hired an ISF certified calibrator. Costed me quite some money but it was the best investment I've done so far on my current setup. For LCDs and PDPs I manage it all by myself though.

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Re: BD 170-171 Westfront 1918 & Kameradschaft

#36 Post by tenia » Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:42 am

Just for my information : how much did the ISF calibrator cost you ?

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Re: BD 170-171 Westfront 1918 & Kameradschaft

#37 Post by nitin » Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:54 am

tenia wrote:Just for my information : how much did the ISF calibrator cost you ?
In Australia, I paid AU$450 for ISF Calibration.

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Re: BD 170-171 Westfront 1918 & Kameradschaft

#38 Post by nissling » Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:06 am

tenia wrote:Just for my information : how much did the ISF calibrator cost you ?
2249 SEK (280 USD) incl gas. It was made by Media Markt who last year let nearly 30 of their employees attend at an ISF course. The course was held by Pär Hörnell, one of seven people worldwide with permission to give such certificate.

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Re: BD 170-171 Westfront 1918 & Kameradschaft

#39 Post by TMDaines » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:03 am

I rest my case. I'd rather be close and no cigar and live with blissful ignorance than siphon off that much disposable income.

I can understand how it is worth it when you are buying a top, top projector, screen, speakers and have configured your room entirely for optimal home cinema viewing. When you are watching on a BenQ W1110, a Optoma DS-9092PWC and Wharfedale DX-1 HCP, which cost a total of £700, it simply cannot be worth it.

One point that is not made anywhere near enough is that the value for money in the projector market is incredible. Purchasing my setup has been one of the best decisions I've ever made. Going from decent Samsung 32 and 48 inch TVs to a BenQ W1110 (which the consensus would overwhelmingly suggest is the best value projector on the marker) projected on even my very cheap screen is simply incredible. It's a privilege to be able to showcase all these fantastic Blu-rays and I feel quite spoilt compared to what the situation was for home viewing 15, 20 and 30 years ago.

I've been meaning to share my process and setup on here for a while, as buying a projector can be quite daunting, especially with the amount of bollocks written online from those who would give you the impression that you need to spend thousands for an even acceptable setup.

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Re: BD 170-171 Westfront 1918 & Kameradschaft

#40 Post by tenia » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:18 am

nissling wrote:
tenia wrote:Just for my information : how much did the ISF calibrator cost you ?
2249 SEK (280 USD) incl gas. It was made by Media Markt who last year let nearly 30 of their employees attend at an ISF course. The course was held by Pär Hörnell, one of seven people worldwide with permission to give such certificate.
Thanks !
Actually, being in Belgium, I have a Media Markt not too far away, I might have a look at this...

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Re: BD 170-171 Westfront 1918 & Kameradschaft

#41 Post by MichaelB » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:29 am

TMDaines wrote:I rest my case. I'd rather be close and no cigar and live with blissful ignorance than siphon off that much disposable income.

I can understand how it is worth it when you are buying a top, top projector, screen, speakers and have configured your room entirely for optimal home cinema viewing.
Or of course if you need to be spot on for professional reasons. But I can justify the cost of calibration as a legitimate business expense.

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Re: BD 170-171 Westfront 1918 & Kameradschaft

#42 Post by Jonathan S » Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:18 am

TMDaines wrote: I've been meaning to share my process and setup on here for a while, as buying a projector can be quite daunting, especially with the amount of bollocks written online from those who would give you the impression that you need to spend thousands for an even acceptable setup.
It's worth pointing out, however, that projectors become much more problematic and expensive if (like me) the viewer is among those (about one in ten, I've read) to suffer from RBE (Rainbow Effect) which rules out DLP projectors like the BenQ range. Over the years I've tested even high-end DLP projectors and found them all completely unwatchable, especially on black & white films, due to the extreme distraction of "rainbows" on almost any moving object. People sat next to me said they didn't notice any rainbows at all.

I've used the alternative LCD projectors for fifteen years but these now seem to be much fewer, more expensive and less reliable than they used to be, particularly in their lack of colour uniformity which (ironically like RBE) becomes most obvious on black & white films. Unlike RBE, I can tolerate this problem to a degree, but my last Epson projector, admittedly an "entry level" HD machine costing £1000, proved to be such a disaster - three replacement units all developing non-correctable patches of red bias - that I'm seriously thinking of returning to televisions.

Projector Point told me I need to spend considerably more than £1000 on a LCD projector for decent colour uniformity. According to reports on AV Forums, it now seems to be a problem even on more expensive models yet in pre-HD days I used to buy sub-£100 secondhand Toshibas where it was barely noticeable! (I'm not super-fussy in technical matters, by the way, and can even still watch VHS with great pleasure.)

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Re: BD 170-171 Westfront 1918 & Kameradschaft

#43 Post by tenia » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:03 pm

I am suffering from seeing the RBE on DLP projectors. We have Texas Instruments DLP projectors at work, and yes, it's a nightmare.

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Re: BD 170-171 Westfront 1918 & Kameradschaft

#44 Post by denti alligator » Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:52 pm

Jonathan S wrote:
TMDaines wrote:I've used the alternative LCD projectors for fifteen years but these now seem to be much fewer, more expensive and less reliable than they used to be, particularly in their lack of colour uniformity which (ironically like RBE) becomes most obvious on black & white films. Unlike RBE, I can tolerate this problem to a degree, but my last Epson projector, admittedly an "entry level" HD machine costing £1000, proved to be such a disaster - three replacement units all developing non-correctable patches of red bias - that I'm seriously thinking of returning to televisions.

Projector Point told me I need to spend considerably more than £1000 on a LCD projector for decent colour uniformity. According to reports on AV Forums, it now seems to be a problem even on more expensive models yet in pre-HD days I used to buy sub-£100 secondhand Toshibas where it was barely noticeable! (I'm not super-fussy in technical matters, by the way, and can even still watch VHS with great pleasure.)
Tell me about it! This is probably de-railing the thread, but man, the red splotches problem on b&w films is really bad! Color films: no problem. But if you watch b&w it's impossible to avoid it. I was also told I had to upgrade to get better uniformity. If that isn't the case I will be bummed, because I love projecting.

Glad to hear I'm not alone with this problem!

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Re: BD 170-171 Westfront 1918 & Kameradschaft

#45 Post by domino harvey » Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:58 pm

Maybe all these fans/viewers here can weigh in on the films? Two pages and other than two slim bursts in the beginning, no one is even taking about the movies

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Re: BD 170-171 Westfront 1918 & Kameradschaft

#46 Post by tenia » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:47 am

I saw Westfront 1918 in theaters 2 years and was quite happy with it. It's just a tad overlong towards the end, but otherwise, it's well crafted and subtle enough while still conveying a rather obvious anti-war message. I was particularly pleased by the actors, that felt all like stand-outs within the overall movie.

As a whole though, it seemed quite similar to Wooden Crosses, or even All Quiet on the Western Front : long battle sequences (bombing sequences, notably) alternating with quieter scenes, not-so-quiet leaves, and heads of army often represented as confused and not really handling things correctly (and they of course feist all day when the troops are having trouble getting any food at all).

Though the restoration is commendable and rather well done, the elements used is visible on screen and the picture is relatively soft.

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Re: BD 170-171 Westfront 1918 & Kameradschaft

#47 Post by DeprongMori » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:18 pm

Has anyone notified Eureka of the mastering issue, and have they responded?

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Re: BD 170-171 Westfront 1918 & Kameradschaft

#48 Post by nissling » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:03 pm

I usually don't link to DVDBeaver but they've reviewed the Criterion disc and this confirms my thesis.
http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film6/blu-ray_ ... lu-ray.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The levels are stored properly on the Criterion releases yet Gary doesn't seem to believe so (look at the third comparison of Westfront 1918 to get an idea). Just one of the reasons why I prefer not to refer to his site, but the screenshots says it all.

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